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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    I expect that the Prius will outsell the 3 series BMW within 3 years.
    So will just about any car that costs 20K.

    Hybrids make sense for people who don't want to do the math or want to make a statement and are not looking at a Prius. None of the hybrids besides the Prius make sense financially. Since the hype over hybrids won't die anytime soon, there's no incentive for the makers to lower the price to reflect any saving they are realizing from advances in manufacturing and volume. The hybrids makers have to milk this hype for all its worth - they have lots of money invested in this thing.

    Sure you can start saving money on gas right now buying an HAH over a V6 Accord, but the extra money one shelled out for the HAH will not be recouped within the likely life of the car with the first owner.

    It will be very telling how Toyota makes the hybrid Camry - do they go the HAH route for performance and high price - or the economy and lower price differential route with a 4 cyl LE. That's another slight problem with adding a hybrid to something like a 4cyl Camry - the regular gas LE already gets 35MPG on the highway - adding hybrid to that will not make that much of % diff.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "None of the hybrids besides the Prius make sense financially."

    And you come to this conclusion how?

    Cars don't make any financial sense to begin with.
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    And you come to this conclusion how?
    I guess I should have elaborated to say that they don't make sense over a similarly equiped gas version of the same car. Do the math on any hybrid for which there's an equivalent regular gas model and you will see that none of them recoup the extra up front extra cost with gas milage savings over the tyical ownership period.
  • molokaimolokai Posts: 313
    Tell me a comparable car to the Prius that has:

    CVT
    VSC
    ABS
    Hatch versatility
    Xenons
    Easily gets 45MPG
    Side airbags
    curtain airbags
    Heated mirrors
    Bluetooth
    Navigation
    built in garage/estate door opener
    auto dimming rear view mirror
    etc...etc...

    Pick one please... or else don't make suppositions which make no sense.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    "hybrids makers have to milk this hype for all its worth - they have lots of money invested in this thing. "

    True that is why the current Toyota hybrid SUVs are not bargain priced. And Toyota is doing a great job in exploiting the popularity of their hybrids.

    But tomorrow is another day and Toyota will begin losing its hybrid market share to competitors. Hyundai will be introducing a 15k hybrid. Mitsubushi is going a step further and introducing a electrical Colt with no gas engine.

    And let us not forget Honda! As long as there is competition==savings will be passed on to consumers.

    Let us just hope that Toyota does not monopolize the hybrid market. In that case you are correct and hybrids will be just expensive toys without economic justification as a purchase.(with the exception of the Prius)
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    September 5, 2007

    Marysville , OH - At its factory here today, Honda has started producing the newly redesigned Accord. Besides the usual V6 models, Honda is introducing 3 drivetrain variants of the popular 4 cyl models. The new 2.4L direct injection gasoline model follows in the footsteps of the venerable K24 engine that preceded it, but with increased torque and HP yet better mileage (28/38) and fewer emissions. It will be the first application of direct injection technology at this price point. The MSRP for the 4 cyl LX model will start at $20,295 with a 6 speed manual transmission. The second variant will use a 2.2L CDTi diesel engine available for some time in Europe but modified for the US market to meet tough new EPA emission rules. While this engine pays a slight performance penalty compared to its gas cousin, its EPA ratings for fuel use are rated 38 city and 52 highway - the best fuel mileage for a mid sized sedan. The diesel LX will start at $20, 995 with the same silky smooth 6 speed manual transmission. The third variant is the hybrid version of the old K24 drivetrain. After sales of the V6 Hybrid Accord have fallen below expectations, Honda decided to apply the second generation of its technology to a more mainstream and volume model. The K24 was detuned slightly to provide better mileage while the electric motor provides more low end torque. MSRP for the LX hybrid start at $22,295 with a CVT as the only transmission choice. It's EPA ratings are 45 city and 38 highway. All Honda models meet the new strict SULEV emission standards that came into affect this year. All models should be available at a dealer near you by the official release date of September 15.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Good prediction Nostradamus!!!
    Give me some stock tips that will make me rich in 07. ;)
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    And you are asking this because......
  • molokaimolokai Posts: 313
    ...the Prius has no other gas equivalent at that price point with those features. Just tell me one that does.
  • molokaimolokai Posts: 313
    Thanks for that post. When that Accord with the diesel becomes available in the US, I'd be interested for sure. How much do you want to bet the dealers will mark it up a few bucks!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,720
    Hey, this is cool! If we can't find real news, we can make it up! ;)

    One little problem with the HAH prognostication: no Honda hybrid will have city fuel economy over the highway numbers with Honda's IMA technology. If they adopt a hybrid design similar to what Toyota and Ford are using, then yes, the mpg numbers could be in the ballpark you mentioned.

    The other problem with your numbers is I seriously doubt we'll see mpg figures like 38/52 for the Accord CDTi after the engine has been modified to meet US emissions regulations. And if we do, then that will make another part of your vision moot--the part about the hybrid that gets "only" 45/38 and costs more than the CDTi. Who would buy that hybrid when the CDTi is available with better fuel economy at a lower price?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "Do the math on any hybrid for which there's an equivalent regular gas model and you will see that none of them recoup the extra up front extra cost with gas milage savings over the tyical ownership period. "

    Okay, let's take a look at the Lexus RX400h. The Hybrid RX has V8 like performance. So shouldn't it be compared to like competition?

    To say you won't recoup the cost is stupid. When you buy a ML500 over a ML350 for example, are you recouping any cost? How about a Explorer V8 over a V6?
    The RX400h does give you more power & faster acceleration. It's obvious that to the people buying the hybrids, they are not expecting to recoup the additional cost of the hybrid powertrain.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "True that is why the current Toyota hybrid SUVs are not bargain priced. And Toyota is doing a great job in exploiting the popularity of their hybrids."

    Should they be bargain priced? How are they going to price a hybrid Highlander V6 under a regular V6? SUVs are pretty expensive to begin with, the average SUV probably has a transaction price of over $30K, and the Highlander V6 hybrid is, I believe, about $35K. Toyota isn't exactly ripping anyone off. Not just that but the hybrids are only priced about $3.5K to $5K above the regular V6 versions with similar equipment. I don't see how that is *exploiting* the popularity. If they wanted to *exploit* the popularity of the whole Hybrid thing, they could jack up prices of Prius' another few grand and the Highlander and RX400h maybe another $5K.

    "But tomorrow is another day and Toyota will begin losing its hybrid market share to competitors. "

    Well duh, isn't that inevitable as more hybrids from more manufacturer's come into the marketplace?

    "Let us just hope that Toyota does not monopolize the hybrid market. In that case you are correct and hybrids will be just expensive toys without economic justification as a purchase.(with the exception of the Prius) "

    You don't have to hope for Toyota not monopolizing the hybrid market. They are doing quite the opposite. If they wanted to have a monopoly, they could have refused to sell license rights to Nissan & Ford. If Toyota does have a future monopoly on Hybrids it will be because some companies like GM, Ford, & DC failed to see the potential of hybrids.
  • molokaimolokai Posts: 313
    More hybrid news!! This just in MAXHONDA99 wins award for best posts on the Edmunds Hybrid forum. BACKY, another well known poster came in second place with extremely informative posts. Yes.... I believe that other manufacturers will bring hybrids to market so that Toyota will really have to keep on their toes. Let's face it, they do have a pretty good lead in the technology. I am looking forward to seeing the specs on the recently announced Camry. Nissan is also supposed to be introducing a hybrids variant of their Altima as a 2007 model with Toyota licensed technology.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,794
    "One little problem with the HAH prognostication: no Honda hybrid will have city fuel economy over the highway numbers with Honda's IMA technology."

    Well, you are mostly right. However, the ULEV CVT gets better city than highway (but not by much):

    5-Speed Manual (City/Highway) (ULEV) 46 / 51

    CVT (City/Highway) (ULEV) 48 / 47

    5-Speed Manual (City/Highway) (AT-PZEV) 45 / 51

    CVT (City/Highway) (AT-PZEV) 47 / 48
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,794
    "The K24 was detuned slightly to provide better mileage while the electric motor provides more low end torque. MSRP for the LX hybrid start at $22,295 with a CVT as the only transmission choice. It's EPA ratings are 45 city and 38 highway. All Honda models meet the new strict SULEV emission standards that came into affect this year. All models should be available at a dealer near you by the official release date of September 15."

    Woah, Honda jumped Totota again, and will have one of the most popular sedans in the US available as an I4 hybrid by September of this year. I think that is about 1.5 years ahead of the Camry?

    Of course, the Honda IMA is simpler to apply to a given car platform than the HSD.
  • molokaimolokai Posts: 313
    True.. but the HSD is more popular now as it gets a little better mileage. Let's see what Honda has up their sleave for next year. I like seeing them duke it out. Makes it NEWSWORTHY!
  • blaneblane Posts: 2,017
    stevedebi:

    You ought to VERY CAREFULLY RE-READ post #1763 from which you excerpted the quotation in your post #1764.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,794
    "You ought to VERY CAREFULLY RE-READ post #1763 from which you excerpted the quotation in your post #1764."

    Oh, got ya. I'm used to people posting real news in this thread, as they are supposed to... is "faking" news releases OK with the moderator? I should have realized that such a thing would have been known in advance from "sneak peaks and such". BLUSH!

    Though I still stand my my statement about the IMA being easier to implement on a given platform.

    BTW, I'm assuming you mean my post 1774, I don't see a 1764...
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    "Well duh, isn't that inevitable as more hybrids from more manufacturer's come into the marketplace? "
    Huuhhh??? :confuse: More competitors means inevitable market share loss! Do you really know what you are talking about? If you cant figure out how it may not be inevitable I can provide you with the math in the next post!

    are doing quite the opposite. If they wanted to have a monopoly, they could have refused to sell license rights to Nissan & Ford.

    A monopoly can license a technology. Monopolizing a technology and licensing that same technology to others are not a contradiction!

    Toyota isn't exactly ripping anyone off.

    Whether they are or not, the fact is that Toyota hybrid SUVs are a rip off in terms of what it is mainly manufactured for (gas efficiency). As hybrid technology advances and becomes cheaper it becomes a rational purchase in terms of efficiency.

    Ofcourse you can say that buying a hybrid Highlander is not only about gas-savings. In that case such hybrids will remain a minor niche!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,720
    You are right. And I broke my own rule by saying "never". The Insight CVT also ekes out one more mpg in the city than the highway, while the HAH gets much better mpg on the highway. So that's two out of six current Honda hybrid variants that are EPA rated for slightly better fuel economy in the city than the highway.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "Huuhhh??? More competitors means inevitable market share loss! Do you really know what you are talking about? If you cant figure out how it may not be inevitable I can provide you with the math in the next post! "

    Let's see. It's obvious GM and DC are working on hybrids on their own at this point in time. By next year we can guesstimate that Toyota will have about a 65%to 75% market share once the Lexus GS450h arrives on scene(for the US that is). Even if Toyota adds a hybrid to just about every car in it's lineup, their market share of hybrids is going to down if and when GM comes out with Hybrids. Not to mention Ford is planning on proliferating hybrids also. Next in the Mercury Mariner, then I believe the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "More hybrid news!! This just in MAXHONDA99 wins award for best posts on the Edmunds Hybrid forum. BACKY, another well known poster came in second place with extremely informative posts. "

    Would that be Gary?
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    He said INFORMATIVE. That's all I am gonna say!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    Would that be Gary?

    Not me, I already gave kudos to LARSB for the best research. Most of the rest on here is opinion and speculation.
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    That's why in my post, I said "other than the Prius" hybrids with gas equivalents don't make sense.
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    The main point of a hybrid is gas mileage gains. While the HAH and others are also marketed as having more performance, those gains are even more minimal than the gas mileage gains.

    It's obvious that to the people buying the hybrids, they are not expecting to recoup the additional cost of the hybrid powertrain.
    That's because they don't bother to do the math and are buying into the hybrid hype.

    Once again, hybrids that have gas equivalents, do not make sense economically for the main reason they are in existance - gas mileage gains. If one is buying a hybrid for performance gains, prestige, statement, better packaging, lower emissions, etc. then no amount financial analysis makes sense cause all of those are subjective matters.
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    Actually the RX vs RH may make sense in certain states because of Fed/State tax incentives.
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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    do not make sense economically

    We have beaten this horse for a couple years. Those that purchase hybrids are not worried about economics, it is the "Green" feeling they get. That and they have too much green and don't know what else to do with it. Same as the person that buys a Porsche or any other luxury car, it goes beyond economics to emotional buying. A case for a hybrid may be made if you drive a lot of miles. Then the only factor to consider is longevity. Until hybrids have 10-15 years of relatively trouble free service we will not know if they are good for the long haul. I guess we keep debating their place in the scheme of things for several more years.
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