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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    quote larsb- This is an example of the misinformation which is hurting Hybrid sales. -end

     

    Mark Phelan tells it like it is. If you attempt to discredit his article as misinformation, it would be logical to conlude that Mark's statement regarding the Honda Accord Hybrid "Bottom line: The Accord has been the best midsize family sedan sold in America for a long time. And this new Accord is the best of them all." is also misinformation.

     

    It is common knowledge that the EPA estimates inflate the mpg of hybrids compared to real world mpg, EPA is aware of this and is developing a test that would be more accurate for all vehicles.

     

    It is clear that you view any information that does not worship a hybrid to be incorrect.

     

    Mark Phelan rates the HAH 4 stars out of 4. Hmmm....you must be right larsb, Mark is a spreader of misinformation...
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote moparbad-"Mark Phelan tells it like it is. If you attempt to discredit his article as misinformation. It is common knowledge that the EPA estimates inflate the mpg of hybrids compared to real world mpg, EPA is aware of this and is developing a test that would be more accurate for all vehicles. It is clear that you view any information that does not worship a hybrid to be incorrect."-end quote

     

    I dont really care one iota about Mr. Phelan's number of stars he gives the Accord Hybrid - it does not affect his other misinformation. Just because a person is wrong or right on one issue does not make him equally wrong or right on ALL issues.

     

    What he did was publish a story which paints the Hybrids in an INCORRECTLY bad light.

     

    His test got 22.8 MPG in a Prius - that alone should tell you his testing was flawed ! I too can get into a cold Prius and drive it like heck and run the defroster the whole time (thus using the A/C) and warm the car up before the drive and get bad mileage on one short test run.

     

    But does that test adequately reflect the capability of the Prius line of cars? Heck no !!

     

    Many hybrids drivers are FAR FAR exceeding EPA numbers in their hybrids. Browse on over to a certain "blue plus yellow" hybrid.com website and look at the Real Mileage Database. You will see the great MPG numbers this fabulous and amazing technology allows drivers to achieve, something never before possible in 4 door cars, diesel or otherwise, until Hybrids hit the USA. There are 3 drivers averaging more than 90 MPG over the life of their Honda Insights !!

     

    All cars suffer in the cold of winter, not just hybrids, you know that, right? Cars do not reach peak MPG efficiency until they warm up and reach peak operating temps. Hybrids included. And running the A/C compressor in winter put s double whammy on MPG figures, which is where the defroster problem came into play.

     

    EPA tests "inflating" scores on the Hybrids is not an indictment of the hybrid - it's an indictment of the flaws of the test !!

     

    The Prius does better in city driving (by design) because of the battery effect and the EPA test did skew that a little bit, but smart drivers can get very near that 60 MPG consistently. The EPA MPG numbers for the Civic Hybrid and the Honda Insight are VERY much achievable to the average driver.

     

    Publishing data which is incorrect by saying that Hybrids suffer 40% loss of EPA numbers while in the cold, based on ONE SHORT TEST DRIVE, is bad reporting. NO CAR he could have chosen to test on that day under those conditions would have achieved EPA numbers. Plain and simple misinformation.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Mark Phelan tells it like it is

     

    Not really.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,680
    Many hybrids drivers are FAR FAR exceeding EPA numbers in their hybrids. Browse on over to a certain "blue plus yellow" hybrid.com website and look at the Real Mileage Database.

     

    I am looking at greenhybrid and only 10% of the Prius II drivers are achieving EPA or greater. 90% are under the EPA estimate and about 23% are getting about 80% of what they were lead to believe they would get by all the hype.

     

    The only hybrids getting close to estimates are the Honda Insight and Civic hybrid. The HAH is a loser and the Escape hybrid is not much better. So I guess that writer was misleading when he gave the HAH such high marks...

     

    Plus the misconception that winter makes a huge difference in gas and diesel engine mileage. It doesn't seem to make much difference summer to winter in the Arctic.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"Plus the misconception that winter makes a huge difference in gas and diesel engine mileage."-end quote

     

    That is indeed not a misconception - it is a fact that a cold engine performs less well in regard to MPG than an optimially warmed up engine.

     

    I can post dozens of pieces of info to prove this. If you REALLY TRULY think that cold does not have an effect on MPG, let me know, and I will start posting solid data.... :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    It doesn't seem to make much difference summer to winter in the Arctic.

     

    I don't suppose those four days of summer would really make much difference in the overall averages, would it? ;-)
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"about 23% are getting about 80% of what they were lead to believe they would get by all the hype."-end quote

     

    EPA numbers are not "hype" - they use an industry standard test that has been used virtually unchanged for decades.

     

    The EPA does not "hype" anything, they just test and report.

     

    And as far as achieving EPA in the Prius II, the gh.com average is 48 MPG across 99 Prius II cars, which is 84% of EPA combined average MPG rating. The Prius I cars are getting 94% of the EPA rating.

     

    That's not perfect, but that's far better than the sorry news report that said they only get 60% of EPA - what a full load of junk that was !!!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,680
    The EPA does not "hype" anything, they just test and report

     

    I don't believe I mentioned the EPA hyping anything. They hype is from the media and advertising.

     

    If I bought a car for the specific purpose to save gas. I would expect it to get close to what was on the window sticker. I cannot remember any new car that I have gotten worse than the EPA estimate. In the case of the Prius MOST drivers are getting less than the EPA. Then to rub salt in the wound you get people telling them they don't know how to drive economically. Especially when only two out of 99 drivers with more than 5000 miles on their Prius are getting 55 mpg as advertised. That is a pretty lousy percentage IMHO.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"they were lead to believe they would get by all the hype."-end quote

     

    What they were "led to believe" should have been the EPA numbers on the sticker. That sticker number is not hype, but was actually performed by the EPA testers.

     

    If a car ad says "60 City/55 Hwy", and that's what the EPA testing showed, how is that "hype?"
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"If I bought a car for the specific purpose to save gas. I would expect it to get close to what was on the window sticker."-end quote

     

    And the average high mileage Hybrids (prius, HCH) DO achieve between 84% and 94% of the EPA, and if you throw in the Insight, it can easily achieve MORE than 100% of the EPA numbers. In fact, the average Insight at gh.com averages 63 MPG, which is 111% of EPA.

     

    You take those three cars, take the gh.com average, and that comes out to 96% of EPA. I think in all cases, that can be considered "close to what was on the sticker."
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    quote larsb- That sticker number is not hype, but was actually performed by the EPA testers. -end

     

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml

    EPA "testing" is 100% laboratory testing. Vehicles do not drive 1 mile on an actual roadway.

     

    "IF" people only drove their vehicles in a laboratory they could obtain EPA mpg too.

     

    Most of us drive in the real world on roads.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    "I cannot remember any new car that I have gotten worse than the EPA estimate"

     

    I've never owned a car that ever did the EPA estimate, except my HCH, which far exceeds. I'm sure you do the calculations but most people have no clue to what they are actually getting. They could be under by a large margin and be ignorantly happy. I'd say a vast majority fall well short of the estimates

     

    I'll make this "man on the street" challenge:

    Go around your office and friends and ask them what their cars calculated MPG is. 95% Won't know other than a guessed figure or simply "Pretty good mileage".

     

    Here's more proof: When I refuel, 100% Of the time I'm the only one who actually writes down figures at the pump. Sometimes people look as to wonder what I'm doing. Clueless.

     

    Another example is my Grand Caravan which EPA estimates at 19/21. I'll be darned if I can only squeeze 18 out of it occasionally. The GC FCD usually displays an errant 22-24MPG. I think most people would use that figure and feel good about it.
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    Posted with Permission from Ron Cogan:

     

    Green Car Journal: State of the Union and the Importance of Alternative Fuels

     

    (CSRwire) SAN LUIS OBISPO, CA - As President Bush made a brief but important mention of hydrogen and ethanol in his State of the Union address, there surely were millions of Americans wondering just what these fuels could offer the U.S. as it battles a growing dependence on oil, much of it imported from unstable regions of the world.

     

    While but a subtle backdrop to the President's larger discussion of Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Middle East in general, energy dependency is an interrelated and important issue.

     

    According to the Energy Information Administration, the U.S. consumed 25% of the world's oil consumption in 2003 but was responsible for only 10% of the world's oil production, and held but 2% of the world's oil reserves. This is contrasted by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), which held 68% of the world's oil reserves in that year and produced 41% of the world's oil.

     

    "These stark statistics illustrate how important it is that we use oil as intelligently as possible," says Ron Cogan, editor and publisher of the Green Car Journal, a magazine that focuses on the intersection of automobiles, energy, and the environment. "High fuel efficiency cars like hybrids and advanced diesels that make the most of a gallon of conventional fuel are an important part of this equation," Cogan adds, "as is a growing inclusion of renewable fuels like ethanol, biodiesel, and ultimately, hydrogen."

     

    In his State of the Union address, President Bush pointed out his support for leading-edge technology such as hydrogen-fueled cars and renewable sources like ethanol. The President renewed the strong commitment he made in his 2003 State of the Union address, in which he pledged a total of $1.2 billion to develop technologies and infrastructure to support the commercialization of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

     

    Today, with the aid of this government funding, the process is underway with various consortia of automakers, energy companies, and others now opening the country's first hydrogen fueling stations and fielding demonstration fleets of fuel cell vehicles to use them. Still, the transition to a hydrogen economy that many envision has a long road of research and development ahead, with the commercially viable hydrogen vehicles that will help drive this economy a decade or more down the road.

     

    "The use of ethanol as an alternative fuel to supplement gasoline supplies is a potentially promising near-term solution, but one not without its challenges," says Cogan. "Nearly four million flexible-fuel vehicles made by half-a-dozen automakers are now on American roads, all capable of running on any mixture of gasoline or E-85 ethanol (a combination of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline) in the same tank. The problem is, the number of ethanol stations can be counted in the hundreds, while conveniently-located gasoline stations number about 170,000 nationwide." The result, Cogan points out, is that most flexible-fuel vehicles are running on gasoline.

     

    Considered by many the "auto magazine of today," Green Car Journal has achieved critical acclaim with 16 International Automotive Media Awards since its launch in 2003, building on the expertise of 14 years of publishing the authoritative, auto industry-focused Green Car newsletter. Excerpts from Green Car Journal's print edition can be found on the magazine's companion website, Green Car Journal Online, at http://www.greencar.com.

     

    Additional information on Green Car Journal and Ron Cogan, as well as high resolution images, can be found at http://www.greencar.com/media.
  • If you watched the super bowl last night, there was a commercial for Toyota Prius Hybrids there. It seemed to be over 30 seconds & at 2.4 million for a 30 second spot, I have to ask why?

     

    It seems that most (not all) are waiting for there Prius's, about 6 months on average. Some sooner & some later. With Toyota bringing out more models it would have been to see more of what they are bringing out in the next year or so.

     

    Why do you think they put the Prius on TV? Do you think they want a longer waiting list?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    As far as supply, the Prius waiting lists are thinning out as Toyota is living up to it's promise of providing more cars in 2005.

     

    I saw two used 2004 cars on a lot two weeks ago, and five ads for new Priuses in the newspaper, three of them from dealers who had 2005 cars on the lot for sale.

    "Toyota continued to lead the market with 5,566 units of the Prius in January 2005 — an increase over January 2004 sales by 90%."

     

    So the Priuses are much more readily available now than they were a few months ago.

     

    Something else important that Toyota wanted to address is ONE of the many misconceptions:

     

    The ad specifically said you "never have to plug it in."

     

    For some reason, the "general public" still EVEN NOW has a problem understanding that the Priuses (and the other Hybrids too) do not need to be plugged in.

     

    I think Toyota wanted to get the Prius back in the attention span of the dozens of millions of Americans watching the game. They want to sell about 100,000 Priuses this year, and the January sales number 12 times is about 35,000 cars shy of 100,000 sold.

     

    I leapt for joy when I saw the commercial, since I'm such a Hybrid promoter myself..... :)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,680
    Do you think they want a longer waiting list?

     

    I think they are trying to give the perception that they are "Green" when in fact they sell a whole string of gas guzzling vehicles. Toyota luxury SUVs are bigger polluters than any SUV Ford or Chevy sells.
  • "It is common knowledge that the EPA estimates inflate the mpg of hybrids compared to real world mpg, EPA is aware of this and is developing a test that would be more accurate for all vehicles."

     

    .

     

    correction: The *city* test is inaccurate, because the electric motor skews the results. The highway test (where the electric motor is rarely used) is just fine & as accurate for hybrids as for non-hybrids.

     

    In other words, ignore the "60mpg city" and "35mpg city" claim for the Prius & Escape, because they're wrong. Focus your attention on the highway ratings, and that's approximately what you'll get on the interstate.

     

    troy
This discussion has been closed.