Hybrids in the News

john1701a

> You have shown Nothing. You only Poo Poo

You know quite well I have posted my data in great detail.

As for the hydraulic details, it is only a prototype. So we can only discuss design aspects. And that is exactly what we were doing until you decided to make it personal and attack me!

JOHN

wlblackwellpe

Hydraulics has one question to me, what pressure will the system be working at, I believe that most hydraulic systems work at high pressures, which could require that the cylinders be ispected by the states and have safety relief valves that require inspection. This would have to be done every two to four years.

moparbad

Heres the data John (and backy too)
2004 US Models
Passat GL 1.8T MSRP $23,855
Passat GL TDI MSRP $24,060
Difference $205

Passat GLS 1.8T $25,455
Passat GLS TDI $25,660
Difference $205

Not $3000, not $2000, not $1200, only $205!

Are you so lazy that you are unable to obtain the data from www.vw.com?

What reports have you read that show $1200 difference? Or are you making you data up as you go along to attempt to mislead?

stevedebi

"Are you so lazy that you are unable to obtain the data from www.vw.com?"

While I sometimes have my differences with john1701a, I find the phraseology offensive. Just putting in my 2 cents for some basic courtesy... so we can all get along and express opinions freely.

backy

I don't think the "lazy" comment is warranted, nor is the "making up data as you go along to attempt to mislead." Let's keep the personal attacks out of this, OK? I got my data from Edmunds.com. I looked at the lowest MSRPs of the GL and GLS models for both 1.8T and TDI engines. What I didn't notice was that the 1.8T is available in a stick shift and the TDI is not. So the price difference between the lowest-priced 1.8T and TDI models is $1280, but the difference between automatic models is $205 as you pointed out.

However, as gagrice found out, it appears TDI models are selling at MSRP while the gas models are selling with big discounts. So the real-world price difference, as in what people actually pay, may well be closer to the "$1200 average" that John mentioned. There is some evidence of this trend in the Edmunds.com TMV prices. For example, the GL 1.8T automatic TMV is $21,998 in my area, while the GL TDI's TMV is $23,044--over a $1000 difference.

moparbad

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/0,12543,690590,00.html

To summarize-
1. Pipe dream mpg.
2. Long waits due to scarce supply.
3. Fuel savings will not equal payback of initial high cost
4. Poor resale.
5. Cold weather problems.

Hmmmm....

Kirstie_H

Several posts are missing, since this discussion was taking on a negative, challenging tone. If you need more information, please don't hesitate to e-mail me. Let's keep disagreements civil and non-personal.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

Kirstie_H

"The Fed report says it would be considerably cheaper to give a new Toyota Prius to each low-income rider of the St. Louis light rail line, and replace it with a new Prius every five years, than it is to operate that rail line.-end"

This report is interesting to me, as I lived in St. Louis. Thankfully, I live outside of the areas of service of the light rail. It is a particularly notable example of poor planning, and poor management. Not only is bi-state development losing money by the bucketful, but the routes are cumbersome, cars unclean, and service areas dangerous.

However, I don't think the solution is to give low-income people a Prius. I'm not suggesting that you endorsed that action, but who would pay for the maintenance? The insurance?

Maybe using hybrid technology, a more cost-effective public transportation system could be designed. Anyone think there's a future for hybrids in mass transit?

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

gagrice

Toyota found that the Prius got 26 percent worse mileage at 20°F than it did at 75°F, because chemical reactions in the battery happen more slowly when the mercury dips.

I believe I asked this question before. What happens when the car sits out at minus 20 F? Does it take off normally. Can you go start the heater before you get in to go? How bad does it affect the mileage. I realize this would only affect about half the US but it is a real problem.

gagrice

In San Diego the Trolley system is nice if you need it. The city subsidizes the system to the tune of 50-100 million dollars per year. It is electric and cuts down on pollution and traffic, I would say it is worth the price. I've used it on occaision to go to events that parking was a mess and it is clean and comfortable.

backy

I think there is a discussion on cold weather behavior in the Toyota Prius 2004+ discussion, from last winter. That was a cold winter in some parts of the country (including mine) so there was a lot of experience with cold weather behavior.

I would ask, does any car "take off normally" after sitting out in -20 F? ;-)

gagrice

I would ask, does any car "take off normally" after sitting out in -20 F? ;-)

No they don't. I usually go start my truck 20-30 minutes before I take off if it is zero or below. What do you do in the Prius to get it warm enough to be comfortable driving?

backy

What do you do in the Prius to get it warm enough to be comfortable driving?

You start the car, let the engine warm up a bit (will happen pretty fast if there's still hot coolant in the "thermos"), and drive off.

john1701a

> I believe I asked this question before. What happens when the car sits out at minus 20 F?

Yes, you did. I already answered it too, just search for -18F. That was the temperature I played in last year (and have photos to prove it too).

The car actually runs just like normal. At that extreme cold, the battery-pack has no worry whatsoever about being able to keep itself cool. So it it quite generous with the charging & discharging. As a result, you notice no difference at all from the cold.

I have no clue as to the credibility of the "26 percent" quote. But I can easily point out and prove that traditional vehicles get even lower real-world averages under those same conditions.

JOHN

gagrice

Does the Prius have some sort of heating device you plug into AC that will keep the engine warm enough to start at low temps?

john1701a

> Does the Prius have some sort of heating device you plug into AC that will keep the engine warm enough to start at low temps?

There's no need.

With a battery-pack & motor enormously more powerful than a traditional battery & starter and a smaller than average engine designed for low-resistance starting, the process is trivial even at sub-zero (F) temperatures.

And to make starting even easier, a THERMAL-STORAGE-DEVICE gets 3-liters of hot coolant pumped into it when you shut off the vehicle. (It will stay warm 3 days too!) So when you press the power button, the coolant is pumped into the head entirely before spinning of the engine for startup even begins.

In short, the system is clearly superior to traditional gas vehicles.

JOHN

gagrice

If you can park it outside all night at minus 40 degrees and have it take off that is impressive. I've only owned a couple vehicles that would start at 10 below without a block heater.

backy

Hopefully John will never find out how well the Prius starts at -40 F, since the Twin Cities has never been that cold in recorded history and I hope it never does get that cold here. Maybe some owners in Embarras, MN or the Northwest Territories can comment on the -40 F starting capability.

john1701a

-23F was the coldest I ever had to endure.

It was awful. After finally winning the struggle to get the engine started with just a 12-volt battery and a pewny, I had to fight to turn the wheel since the dang power-steering fluid had thickened.

Fortunately, Prius has a dramatically better battery and no fluid at all (it's electric instead).

JOHN

Kirstie_H

Guys, this is the "news" topic. If we're just talking about the Prius, please do so in an active Prius discussion. If you've got a news item to report, please post it!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

aaaedgarpoe

See:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/road/pdf/cr218.pdf

aaaedgarpoe

I have read that the Diesel Passat gets 85 MPG in Germany -- though they have to use the low sulfer fule that won't be available here in the US until 2007. But once we get the low sufler fule and get an extra 100% mileage from the diesel hydraulic hybrid technology, that's a great 170 MPG -- about a penny a mile! If you built it, they will come!!! Though I guess VP Cheany will do all possible to stop it -- oil freidns, you know.

falconone

Doesn't diesel turn to jelly at the temperature. Luckily where I live it doesn't get that extremely cold. I'd rather have a Prius than a diesel when it gets really cold.

falconone

If you believe that, I have a really nice bridge to sell you.

gagrice

It would be great to get 85 mpg in a Passat size vehicle. I would like to see where that was performed and under what conditions. I think ULSD is mandated by 2006 at least it is in CA. I think 170 mpg is a bit ambitious in any kind of hybrid.

aaaedgarpoe

The 85 mpg is what I read they get in europe on the diesel Passat. Even though Kerry is an opportunist and just wants to advance himself, I think I'll have to vote for him. We need to reduce our oil dependence on the extremest Muslims. Having read some Koran in translation, though, I would not call them extremest.

backy

I wonder what kind of magic they use on the Passats in Europe to get 85 mpg, when the diesel Passats sold in the U.S. get less than half that?

gagrice

Ahhh, Imperial gallons, roughly equal to 1.2 of our gallons. Or about 71 mpg US, not too shabby.

gagrice

I think they do all the tricks like high tire pressure remove any excess weight etc. I do believe they have a manual shift Passat TDI in Europe. Like some one posted 84.9 mpg on a Prius. Not likely in day to day driving..

moparbad

http://www.investors.com/editorial/feature.asp?v=9/8

gagrice

It is hard to argue with the facts!

"These folks want to be the first on their block with a hybrid, Duleep says. Owners include several stars on Hollywood's A list.

backy

Well, the facts they chose to present anyway. I notice they didn't do a comparison of a Prius to another mid-sized car, and look at the dollars saved in fuel (plus toss in the federal and state tax breaks while they're at it). They compared a HCH to a regular Civic, which is just about the worst comparison of hybrid fuel savings you can make from a cost standpoint.

mirth

The Prius is not, IMHO, a mid-sized car, no matter what number-juggling Toyota worked out with the feds. Thus, comparing it to another compact is completely fair.

backy

Not to mention all the money Toyota must have paid to CR to toss it into the mid-sized category! Where's the investigative press when we need it? ;-)

larsb

http://www.investors.com/editorial/feature.asp?v=9/8

Worse than that, they are comparing a $14000 Civic to a Hybrid? PUH-LEEEZE !!! Those cars are not even in the same ballpark as far as equipment !!

I sent a letter to the editor of that magazine to point out their obvious mistake and perpetuating the myth of Hybrids being so "uncostworthy." That is such a silly assumption, and it chafes my tail something major !!!!

I got a used 2004 Civic Hybrid for $19,324, and a comparable Civic EX model ON THE LOT was $17,800. That's only $1524 difference my friend !!! My tax break alone pays for that, so all the gas savings I rack up from now on are just GRAVY !!!

The HIGH END Civic, the EX, is the model that is comparable to the Hybrid in equipment and features. Comparing a low end Civic to a Hybrid is like comparing a Chevy Avalanche to a Cadillac Escalade EXT.

In the REAL WORLD, not one person is trying to decide, "HMMM, honey, do we go with the LOWLY Civic DX at $14K or the Hybrid at $21K?" I can ASSURE you that in REAL LIFE, anyone is who is shopping the Civic models would compare the EX model and the Hybrid, and the price difference between those two new models can be as low as $1700.

stevedebi

"Not to mention all the money Toyota must have paid to CR to toss it into the mid-sized category! Where's the investigative press when we need it? ;-)"

No money needed; all Toyota had to do was replace the trunk with a hatchback and "whup, there it is" - instant mid size.

stevedebi

"I sent a letter to the editor of that magazine to point out their obvious mistake and perpetuating the myth of Hybrids being so "uncostworthy." That is such a silly assumption, and it chafes my tail something major !!!!"

The posts are comparing the Prius, which is generally sold with the higher cost package 9 (I've seen some posts claiming only 25% of Prius are not package 9), which retails for 26K plus.

This is compared to about 9K less for a Civic EX. This difference in cost will not be made up by gas costs over the normal 4-5 years of ownership.

Before everyone goes crazy, yes, the Prius has more electronic stuff on it, etc. But many people don't want that stuff.

Is does seem that the package 9 is more prevalent. This is understandable, given that Toyota probably makes more profit on the higher cost units. Or, for those consipracy theorists among us, Toyota makes up more of it's loss per unit.

moparbad

Reporting vs. Reality.

quote- I can ASSURE you that in REAL LIFE, anyone is who is shopping the Civic models would compare the EX model and the Hybrid, and the price difference between those two new models can be as low as $1700.-end

I don't share your opinion. The LX is better comparision to Hybrid Civic. A buyer seeking sport features of EX (larger engine, sunroof) is not going to find these features in the HCH (low emissions, high mpg).

Then again, hybrid buyers are OBVIOUSLY not concerned about money, they are buying for the low emissions and technology, not to save money, so perhaps the EX would be compared.

The article is relevant and accurate.

zodiac2004

got a used 2004 Civic Hybrid for $19,324, and a comparable Civic EX model ON THE LOT was $17,800. That's only $1524 difference my friend !!! My tax break alone pays for that, so all the gas savings I rack up from now on are just GRAVY

Big difference between ASKING price and actual selling price. Or are you one of those buyers who pays list price ?

moparbad

quote- perpetuating the myth of Hybrids being so "uncostworthy." -end

Not a myth.

larsb

It's not an opinion - I have shopped for cars many times and I keep up with car buying trends and habits of my family and friends.....NOT EVERY SINGLE SITUATION IS THE SAME, but generally, this is what happens:

If a person is shopping for a Civic, they do not look at the very highest equipped and the lowest equipped versions with the idea that they might buy either car - that's just not NORMALLY done. They look at the "best equipped car in my price range." If they have $14K to spend, they look at the lower end models. If they have an unlimited budget, they wouldn't be shopping for a Civic. If they want the best equipped car, they will look at the EX.

If you know ANYTHING about the Civic line of cars, you know that the EX and the Hybrid are the two cars that are comparably equipped.

Saying Hybrid buyers are "obviously not concerned about money" is a pretty broad inaccuracy. That's like saying Hybrid buyers are only the rich, which is not true - I am lower middle class, and I bought a Hybrid for the gas savings alone. Maybe Prius buyers willing to pay $5K over sticker could be considered in the "not concerned about money" category, but not with the Honda. Even people who do not achieve raving financial success care very much about money - saving pennies, etc.

The article is not accurate in it's comparison of a $14K car to a $21K car, whether you are talking Hybrids or Pickups or sports cars - you get what you pay for, and if you want the benefit of the Hybrid OR THE EX, you must pay the going rate.

larsb

Hybrids are not uncostworthy in MY situation, so it is a myth to me -

Like I said earlier, I bought my 2004 HCH for $19,324, and a comparable EX was on the lot for $17,800. That's $1524 difference.

My tax benefit is $1500 for the 2004 tax year.

So once I save $24 in gas over an EX model, I am in the black. I'll trade this car in LONG before any "Hybrid battery getting old" problems ever occur.

So where is the mythical cost problem for me? Not here, baby......Sorry....bark up another tree my friend....

moparbad

quote- My tax benefit is $1500 for the 2004 tax year.-end

There is no reduction of taxes by $1500. It is reduction of Adjusted Gross Income by $1500. For example purposes if you were in 25% tax bracket you would save maximum of $250 in taxes.

It is your math and tax computations that are a MYTH.

Furthermore, you stated you purchased a used HCH and then compared it to a new Civic EX. Poor comparison. And, new 2004 Civic EX automatics are sold for $15,750 in Chicago area right now. There is no similar savings on the HCH. Maybe you would pay close to $18K for a EX, I certainly would not.

quote-So once I save $24 in gas over an EX model, I am in the black-end

Not true. It is funny though. Hope that all hybrid buyers do not have this faulty logic.

quote-So where is the mythical cost problem for me? Not here, baby......Sorry....bark up another tree my friend.... -end

Relative to the earlier article your situation would be a good one for a follow up report. It is obvious that you have been misled or simply do not understand the costs involved in your purchase of a hybrid compared to a competing non hybrid model.

backy

Comparing a Civic to a loaded Prius is ridiculous. What is your basis for claiming that "most people don't want that stuff"? Personally I'd love to have a voice-activated nav system, Bluetooth, Xenons, Smart Entry/Start, and the other goodies the Prius offers and the Civic does not, at any price--IF I were going to spend $26k for a car. How about comparing cars that have those features to the Prius, instead of cars that are a class size below the Prius with far less equipment? That's fair, isn't it? What do other midsized cars with that kind of equipment cost, anyway?

larsb

Hybrids are not uncostworthy in MY situation, so it is a myth to me -

Like I said earlier, I bought my 2004 HCH for $19,324, and a comparable EX was on the lot for $17,800. That's $1524 difference.

My tax benefit is $1500 for the 2004 tax year.

So once I save $24 in gas over an EX model, I am in the black. I'll trade this car in LONG before any "Hybrid battery getting old" problems ever occur.

So where is the mythical cost problem for me? Not here, baby......Sorry....bark up another tree my friend....

moparbad

quote- My tax benefit is $1500 for the 2004 tax year.-end

There is no reduction of taxes by $1500. It is reduction of Adjusted Gross Income by $1500. For example purposes if you were in 25% tax bracket you would save maximum of $250 in taxes.

It is your math and tax computations that are a MYTH.

Furthermore, you stated you purchased a used HCH and then compared it to a new Civic EX. Poor comparison. And, new 2004 Civic EX automatics are sold for $15,750 in Chicago area right now. There is no similar savings on the HCH. Maybe you would pay close to $18K for a EX, I certainly would not.

quote-So once I save $24 in gas over an EX model, I am in the black-end

Not true. It is funny though. Hope that all hybrid buyers do not have this faulty logic.

quote-So where is the mythical cost problem for me? Not here, baby......Sorry....bark up another tree my friend.... -end

Relative to the earlier article your situation would be a good one for a follow up report. It is obvious that you have been misled or simply do not understand the costs involved in your purchase of a hybrid compared to a competing non hybrid model.

larsb

I did not say I had a "reduction of taxes" by $1500 - I purposefully said "my tax benefit" - which is what a tax deduction is - a tax benefit. And you are correct, it is not $1500 in cash back to me, but it is still a tax benefit I would not have had if I had purchased the EX. So my "gas savings payoff" is farther down the line to black - but it's still adding up EVERY MILE I drive, is it not?

quote-"Furthermore, you stated you purchased a used HCH and then compared it to a new Civic EX. Poor comparison."

my "used" HCH had 4823 miles on it, and the EX I was talking about was also used with low miles - sorry about the confusion. Actually, if you know anything about the Civic line of cars, you will plainly see that the EX is the comparable model to the Hybrid in equipment - I'm not going to prove that here because you can go to honda.com and see it yourself. Or look at this from Edmunds.com (you do know about that site, right?)

EX Styles (MSRP: $17,750 - $18,800)
Hybrid Styles (MSRP: $20,140 - $21,140)

My "faulty math" shows a difference of $1,340 between the highest priced EX and the lowest priced Hybrid, and a largest possible difference of $3,390.

Like I said, MY CHOICE at the time I purchased my car was between a used EX and a used Hybrid, and the price diff was $1524. DARN, could have even saved more (EGAD !!)

This forum is about "Hybrids in the news" and I get SO WEARY of all the "news" articles saying Hybrids are not "cost wise" purchases, when in some cases, i.e. MY case, they clearly are cost wise.

larsb

My used HCH was also "Honda Certified" so that added cost and hopefully value to the deal. The used EX was also Certified, which might be the reason for the $17,800 price.

But nonetheless, the fact remains that MSRP for the highest priced EX and the lowest priced Hybrid are only $1,340 apart - FAR, FAR from the $6000 that the silly Investors Business Daily article quoted.

Thus the article was incorrect. The facts are here in the Edmunds website to point out the silliness of that article's content.

stevedebi

"Comparing a Civic to a loaded Prius is ridiculous. What is your basis for claiming that "most people don't want that stuff"? "

Hmmm, next time I will make my caveats about understanding that the Prius has more tech a bit more obvious in my posts, I suppose... for the record, I said many people, NOT most people, don't want that stuff. If you will quote me, please cut and paste rather than re-typing; it preserves accuracy.

The point it that the Civic EX has a lot of what a small sedan owner wants, for 9K less, and the gas savings won't make up the difference in 3-5 years.

I'm glad you want the advanced features. Stand by, they will be available on most cars in a couple of years.

stevedebi

"But nonetheless, the fact remains that MSRP for the highest priced EX and the lowest priced Hybrid are only $1,340 apart - FAR, FAR from the $6000 that the silly Investors Business Daily article quoted."

I didn't see the article, but is it possible they were referring to the Prius as the hybrid?

Actually, I think that the Civic EX vs Civic HCH is a much closer deal than Prius, due to the lower cost of the technology. However, many Prius owners want that technology and are thoroughly sold on the HSD, which is indeed an impressive technology.

Personally, I'm a techno-geek and would opt for the package 9 myself, if the Prius was what I wanted in a vehicle. My needs are determined by the capabilities of the vehicle, so I personally would compare two vehicles based on the capabilities of the cars (performance, cargo & passenger room, etc), then decide which one to buy. I stll find the Prius just too small for my purposes.