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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Those guys can generalize and estimate and crow all they want about "how much smarter they are than all those fools who are buying hybrids" but for many of us, finances were not the only reason for buying a hybrid.

    I wanted a car with a certain "interior comfort level" and no car priced below the $19,324 I paid for my Hybrid met that mark AND also:

    1. Got 50 MPG, and
    2. Had a government tax incentive, and
    3. Insulated me from the future worries of high gas prices, and
    4. Was a 5-seater.

    Every mile I drive puts me more into the black.

    So all those smart people who think hybrids are financial boo-boos and thus are not smart buys are wrong in MY case, and in the case of many others too.

    If I had wanted a "bottom feeder" car, I would have gotten an Echo or a Kia or a Hyundai for $12,000.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    That article just lumped all types of hybrids into a single category and it made no reference whatsoever to smog-related emissions. They've had 5 years to learn about the various aspects of hybrid operation & design. There's simply no excuse for such misleading writing anymore.

    JOHN
  • I've seen a lot lately in the news about retrofitting the Prius so that it can plug in, getting nearly 200 MPG in the process. Pretty amazing.

    Now, there's talk that broadband internet can be delivered on that same household power receptical. That's awesome: so while your Prius is getting its batteries juiced, it can be receiving software updates (and maybe even report back your mileage statistics or shopping locations).

    But then, I suppose, we'll have to purchase 'pop-up' blockers and virus scan for the Prius' computer.
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    How much will a plug-in add to your electrical bill every month?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I wanted a car with a certain "interior comfort level" and no car priced below the $19,324 I paid for my Hybrid met that mark AND also:

    1. Got 50 MPG, and
    2. Had a government tax incentive, and
    3. Insulated me from the future worries of high gas prices, and
    4. Was a 5-seater.

    A new Civic LX can be obtained for $14,600.
    1. It will obtain 40 mpg.
    2. No, it does not have welfare* (*govt. tax incentive). Government should not support your hybrid addiction.
    3. Civic LX insulates you from the future worries of high gas prices and costs $4724 less than $19,324.
    4. It is a 5 seater. In fact, it is remarkably similar in dimensions to the HCH. And the rear seats even split and fold.

    So you started out $4724 in the red. That money saved would buy gas for 69,000 miles of driving at $3.00 a gallon in a Civic LX using the 40 mpg highway mpg.
    Or is a Civic LX a "bottom feeder" and not eligible for your purchase consideration?

    You are a perfect example of why hybrids do not make cents! :P Thanks for making the article more relevant.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    50 mpg in your HCH? LOL CR can not get 50 mpg, Pete B. can not ge 50 mpg in HCH, HCH is not even rated at 50 mpg. Amazing that you get 50 mpg in your HCH larsb. You must be a phenom.

    Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized license plate with "MO MILES" on it, and started a blog about his new hybrid lifestyle.

    But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati, Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg.

    "I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license plate that says MO MILES," says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000 miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that there was nothing he could do.


    Hybrid mileage woes
  • In California it's estimated to be the equivalent of 70 cents a mile. Maybe a bit more, but not much. Plus the power grid is ten times cleaner (measured from energy source to consumption) even when coal is used.
  • Hybrid addiction? Huh?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote Moparbad-"50 mpg in your HCH? LOL CR can not get 50 mpg, Pete B. can not ge 50 mpg in HCH, HCH is not even rated at 50 mpg. Amazing that you get 50 mpg in your HCH larsb. You must be a phenom."-end quote

    There are MANY drivers of HCH who have more than 50 MPG as their lifetime number. Mine is actually lower because my commute is short and my car does not normally reach optimum operating temps (which make for the best fuel economy numbers) during my short commute. I also live in Phoenix and am forced to use the A/C a lot in summer, which hurts all car's MPG.

    I am FAR FROM a phenom, but my car will be at lifetime 50 MPG within about 10 more tanks. My current tank is approaching 100 miles and I am sitting at 57.9 MPG for that first 100 miles. My lifetime average is only 47.9 on the car, but I have learned a new trick lately and that lifetime number is on it's way up. :D

    That Pete Blackshaw thing is old news. He was just refusing to "play the game" and drive an HCH like it needs to be driven to achieve 50 MPG.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Civic LX did not meet my needs. No 50 MPG, no clean emissions, not the same car as an HCH. Sorry about pointing this out. :D
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > You are a perfect example of why hybrids do not make cents!

    Notice how you totally, completely ignored smog-related emissions too.

    That does not make sense (or cents) at all. The 2006 model hybrid will be PZEV rated. That non-hybrid is only ULEV. That's a very big difference, of importance that simply cannot not be ignored or dismissed.

    JOHN
  • I'll tell you what: when gas prices in Atlanta start hovering around $5.00 a gallon, I'm going to be glad that I bought a car that can be further refined in terms of efficiency.

    I've gotten as high as 73 MPG and that was with three people in the car. And I'll happily pay the $12,000 to do the plug-in conversion.

    Plus, I don't understand why people like Moparbad try to talk down hybrid. We're giving him an obvious freebee: everytime I DON'T go to the gas station, I'm placing less demand on the infrastructure.

    You'd think that if he truly believed that we were lemmings, he'd be pointing out where the cliff is for us!!

    :lemon:
  • Oops. Lemming. Not lemon.
  • In fact, if I were a Hummer owner, I'd be the most ardent supporter of hybrid technology of all!!

    I'd be in the airport with my head shaved, passing out Prius brochures.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I cant wait to see real world driving comparisons between the 2nd edition of the HCH against the new edition of the gasoline Manual tranny Civic?

    If the fuel consumption difference is not significant, the good ole fashioned base model MT Civic will look like compelling value!(assuming your ego can live without the hybrid hoopla)
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    So all those smart people who think hybrids are financial boo-boos and thus are not smart buys are wrong in MY case, and in the case of many others too.


    Show us how HCH saves money. Compare your HCH to a comparable non-hybrid, the Honda Civic LX. Give an example of the math.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    QUOTE Mpoarbad-"Show us how HCH saves money. Compare your HCH to a comparable non-hybrid, the Honda Civic LX. Give an example of the math."-end quote

    This is not the right place for this discussion. A Civic LX is not the right car for me. Maybe a Civic EX had enough "creature comforts" for me. There was an EX on the lot the night I bought my HCH which was $1524 less than my HCH. That difference would have been easy to recoup in tax and gas savings. The HCH had the right features, including 50 MPG.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Plus, I don't understand why people like Moparbad try to talk down hybrid.

    Why?
    1. There is much false information that buying a hybrid will save you money. It is just not true. Reporters and auto execs. such as Carlos Ghosn understand this.
    Hybrid owners on this forum too often cheerleaders for this myth.
    2. Hybrids lower emissions, hybrids obtain more mpg than comparable vehicles with conventional gas drivetrains. I simply believe that the premium for the hardware of a hybrid is not currently a wise expenditure. Funny thing is, hybrid owners too often say they purchased a hybrid to save money, not to have a green vehicle.
    3. Hybrid fanatics are against other technological options. Research and continuing progress is needed on many fronts, not just reliance on hybrids.
    4. Emissions!! There are other low emissions choices than hybrids. PZEV vehicles I ignore emissions when trying to make a point due to the fact that I am not trying to make a point about emissions. Can you not understand this John?
    5. Overall market- hybrids are more of a publicity stunt at this time than a purchasing choice given the very small number that are available.
    7. Tax incentives- I do not want to pay for your choice of a vehicle. An incentive for hybrids is just as bad as an incentive for SUV's. Let hybrids succeed or fail on their own merits.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    QUOTE DEWEY-"in all honesty the above examples are extreme and do not reflect the real world of driving. You do know that?"-end quote

    They weren't driving on MARS my friend. These are examples of REAL PEOPLE driving the hybrids like ANYONE ELSE can do also, with the proper training.

    And the reasons the hybrids do not "resemble advertised MPG" is that the EPA tests are faulty, not the hybrid technology.

    Anyone who owns an HCH and has MY commute or something like it can learn to drive an HCH and achieve 50 MPG. It's not magic my friends, it's techniques which hybrid drivers can learn - ANY hybrid driver willing to make the most of their car.
  • Wow, so I have to completely ignore my own anecdotal driving experience? Or admit that I'm driving like an oddball to accomplish what I'm accomplishing (I now see a lot of Expeditions driving like they're trying to se the MPG record in THEIR class)?

    Or I'm lying?

    I get 54 MPG in the city. And you can post as many arguments to the contrary as you'd like, it's just a simple fact. I get over 60 MPG on the highway.

    If you can't believe that, it's your problem.
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    That does not make sense (or cents) at all. The 2006 model hybrid will be PZEV rated. That non-hybrid is only ULEV. That's a very big difference, of importance that simply cannot not be ignored or dismissed.

    Our definition of "very big" may differ, but if you're that worried about it by a PZEV Focus. Or a PZEV Explorer for that matter, lol.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    quote larsb- They weren't driving on MARS my friend. These are examples of REAL PEOPLE driving the hybrids like ANYONE ELSE can do also, with the proper training. -end

    The people who are complaining about low mpg with hybrids are examples of real people. Door swings both directions.

    Independent studies in British Columbia and California have made the financial truth of hybrids clear, and you can work your own case out quite simply when you get quotes from your dealer.
    hybrids won't save you any money
  • I supposed if I tied a dead holstein to the bumper and insisted on depressing the gas pedal down to the floor at the turn of every green light, I could complain about low gas mileage.

    In fact, if I let 20 pounds of pressure out of my Prius's tires, added a roof rack, and took the front foiler off, I could trim another 10 MPG.

    I'd be willing to bet that I could make ANY (and I mean ANY) Prius on the lot get 54 MPG in the city. I'd be willing to bet ANYTHING on it.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote moparbad-"The people who are complaining about low mpg with hybrids are examples of real people. Door swings both directions."-end quote...

    No, that's absolutely incorrect. The people who are complaining about not getting good MPG in hybrids are people who are UNWILLING to use the instrumentation and tips and tools to help them learn how to drive for most efficient MPG.

    It's not the technology, it's the driving style that is the problem for those people.

    HOSTS - can you point us to which forum to use to continue this discussion - it's not "Hybrids in the News" but it needs to be debated nonetheless. Thanks
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    H meets D

    quote danashields-And that If we somehow found ourselves just a smidge short of gasoline (I know...it's a bizarre thought), I'd rather own something with an electric motor under the hood rather than a turbocharger. -end

    If there was no petroleum today, I could make fuel in my garage to use in my vehicle, and yes, my vehicle does have a turbocharger. Fuel that is made from renewable sources. Fuel that can be made without the need of electricity. No need for a plug! And it is not ethanol!
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Moparbad:

    There is much to be said for the latest non-hybrid’s vs. their hybrid counterparts when looking at $’s alone. Especially if you are a mostly highway driver … That being said, saying the HCH is not worth 50 mpg and pointing to a link by some nut that could not receive 32 mpg in his is a bit over the top, don’t you think? I have received a touch south of 40, 50, and 60 mpg in the non-hybrid Ranger P/U, Corolla, and Accord respectively but have been south of 120 mpg peak/105 - 120 mpg sustained in both the HCH and the Prius II. The HCH and Prius II are capable of much more then the non-hybrid’s. While driving an 04 - CVT based HCH on an ~ 140 + mile, 90% highway, roundtrip on Chicago Interstates a few weeks ago, the HCH was worth ~ 75 mpg (72.x out and 79.x back) if driven reasonably in 70 + degree temps. She allowed > 105 mpg when cruising ~ 10 miles through the heart of the city of Chicago during non-rush and a non-hybrid (except for an EV) may never achieve that kind of FE in the foreseeable future. This did not include all my techniques given the owner was in the passenger seat and said “no you don’t” ;)

    John1701a, you and I will never get along but I do have to say the Prius II is capable of a hell of a lot more FE then any non-hybrid other then maybe a SMART .6 L Diesel with acceleration rates measured using a sun dial. A public apology to you is in the offing in regards to what it is capable of although your own FE needs a lot of improvement when promoting the Prius II as you do imho … With that, the EPA has posted that the 01 - 03 Prius was only available as a ULEV-I throughout most of the country? I have to wonder if someone didn’t make a mistake when posting that info on their own website? Either way, consider an alternative view point where emissions are concerned as even the AT-PZEV based Prius II is a dirtier vehicle then some non-hybrid PZEV’s that some of us do in fact own.

    Dewey, the 5-speed MT based 06 Civic is EPA rated lower then its Auto based counterpart. I bet its 5th gear is shorter then the Auto but I have yet to see the actual specs from Hondanews or ToV.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • Oops. Another screwup. There aren't any Priuses on the lot...
  • And who's the addict??
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    hybrid mpg
    While the EPA rated the Honda Civic hybrid at 47 miles per gallon in the city, consumer reports got just 26 miles per gallon. The EPA rated the Toyota Prius at 60 miles per gallon in the city.

    "We actually got 35, so it's a big difference," says Champion.


    Consumer Reports obtained 26 mpg. Send your complaints to CR.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    So – for substantially less than the Prius’s $21,275 sticker price, you get a car that while smaller in stature, offers equivalent mileage, similar utility, all the regular safety & comfort features, and a simple and easy-to-maintain drive-train.
    Jazz vs. Hybrid
This discussion has been closed.