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Hybrid Diesels?

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  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,918
    Does this have anything to do with diesel hybrids? Or are folks just wanting to re-start diesels versus hybrids? Because that just simply isn't going to fly.

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  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    This line of discussion came about because we were talking about how the "hybrid premium" has not come down and how Gary thinks that until THAT happens, a "diesel/hybrid" car will have too large a premium (with the diesel and the hybrid portions BOTH requiring premiums over the gas only version of the car) to be an affordable and attractive purchase for Average Joe American.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    Agreed

    I think that we would both applaud some of the diesel/hybrids that are being tested.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It seems strange that Toyota sought the link with Isuzu.

    With Isuzu already making the Duramax for GM, Toyota's purchase looked a little fishy.

    Then there is this today. Toyuzu hybrid diesel

    This may be why Toyota has not announced anything about hybrids in the small vehicle segment. This may have been in the works for a while. Can't let Honda get ahead. Honda can't let Toyota get
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Could also be that Toyota is close to merging GM into its tent.....at least that's been the rumor on Wall Street for many months now. ;)
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Ok now. Hybrid Diesels. GM already makes a Hybrid Diesel. It uses the Allison EV trans. The GM hybrid system most used is a Parallel system. It uses the electric motor integrated inside the trans at speeds below 15 mph for acceleration and then uses the diesel engine for speeds above 40 mph. In between these modes it "blends" the use of both to decrease emissions and to improve fuel economy and noise pollution. Go to any large Mass Transit system and you will find these vehicles in use. Most transit agencies use the Cummins ILS engine with the Allison EV trans. Oh. GM holds about 23% of Toyota. I don't remember if GM holds part of Isuzu.
    When the small diesel engines can "affordably" pass the new EPA standards you will see diesel hybrids. GM and Ford don't lag behind any other manufacturer. It all comes down to can they make money off of the product. Right now no. Depending on the market later. Maybe. Now for small diesel hybrids look at the Opel. For a nice Diesel model vehicle look at the Small Caddy and Chrysler models offered oversees. Just think about putting that same Opel engine in a Saturn VUE Hybrid. So don't think just because it comes from overseas it is better then what comes from the US. Ford, GM, and Chrysler sell to the US market what the US market will buy. Most buyers in the US market will not pay 30K+ for a small to midsized car. Try to get a European or a safe [non-permissible content removed] model for the same price as a Chevy Impala or a Ford Fusion. Not going to happen. Stop knocking the US offerings. And again I say Honda is all Hype. Treat a Honda the way the average Ford, GM, or Chrysler gets abused and you will find the American cars are more cost effective.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Good information. 15 to 20 percent is most common for Diesel Hybrid buses used in City use. People don't realize that you have other auxiliary systems being powered by the power plant. HVAC, Lighting, Pneumatic and ADA required equipment. The average HVAC system on a transit bus is 70,000 btus That's about 6 tons. The biggest savings comes from regenerative braking. The alternators on a 40' transit bus operate between 3kW to 12kW depending on load required. All these systems get their power from the engine. This is before any forward motion by the vehicle.
    So MPG is just one concern. Think about it this way. Lets say the Transit system is paying 50 Million a year for fuel. Take 15% due to Hybrid use. 50-7.5=42.5 That's 7.5 million. Use 20% then they reduce their costs by 10 mil.
    Also the transit bus is kept in service for 12 to 18 years. I'll put it this way. Most transit buses I deal with average 26,000 miles a year of City 5MPH stop and go use. The vehicle is sold for scrap after about 15 years. So 15 times 26,000 is 390,000 miles. The average 40' bus gets 3.5 mpg. The Hybrids are getting 4.2 mpg. 390,000/4.2=92,857 gallons. Now use 3.5 we get 111,428 gallons. Say 18,571 gallons at $2.20 = $40,857. Now add the savings through brake ware. About $4600 per year. Then we get $69,000+41,000=$110,000. Also the lowered PM and NOx emissions to the city air pollution. The extra capital costs of the Hybrids are being covered by the lower costs of operation and impact on the environment. Right now it seems to be a wash.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    So don't think just because it comes from overseas it is better then what comes from the US. Ford, GM, and Chrysler sell to the US market what the US market will buy. Most buyers in the US market will not pay 30K+ for a small to midsized car. Try to get a European or a safe [non-permissible content removed] model for the same price as a Chevy Impala or a Ford Fusion. Not going to happen. Stop knocking the US offerings. And again I say Honda is all Hype. Treat a Honda the way the average Ford, GM, or Chrysler gets abused and you will find the American cars are more cost effective.

    Where in the world did you get any of this from the post about a Toy-uzu diesel hybrid. Other than the reference to GM/Izuzu link it said nothing about anything being better than anything else.

    In fact..
    I think the GM dual-mode is probably the best system for improving fuel efficiency in heavy vehicles.

    However the blog entry indicated that this Toy-uzu diesel hybrid would likely be implemented in smaller vehicles like the Yaris/Corolla. Probably in competition to Honda's new small hybrid to be built in the Midwest.

    But it's new and it's an interesting development for small vehicles.

    All that other stuff about Caddy's and $30K vehicle and GM holds 23% of Toyota??????????? Are you into the eggnog early? Just show me the specific reference and I'll give your rant a little credence.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Read the posts and look past the last 6 months. Take a look at who owns who and you might learn something. It's not a rant. It is real.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    GM sold off some of it's Toyota holding in late 2005. This has to do with some transfers in Fuji Heavy Industries and other companies. They still have some joint ventures and information sharing agreements. Toyota and GM have been working closely for years. Izusu has been with GM for years. Especially when Detriot Diesel was sold off about ten or more years ago. But I still don't rant!!!
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I say Honda is all Hype. Treat a Honda the way the average Ford, GM, or Chrysler gets abused and you will find the American cars are more cost effective.

    Well Americans tend to vote with their wallets. The domestics declining sales and the Japanese increasing sales would seem to contradict that statement. Have we been duped?

    I'm not bashing US automakers. I believe that they are just as capable of producing exceptional vehicles. Unfortunately they are saddled with financial constraints that interfere with the pursuit of quality.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It is a rant because I asked for a reference. Cite a source or a specific holding in GM's portfolio.

    I know you said it's real just provide a specific source for your information. Then I'll belive you.

    What you might have heard is that GM holds 20+% of their joint venture in Fremont CA ( possibly ) while Toyota holds 75+% of that plant. But that's the only joint venture.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Toyota is more likely to buy GM. ;)
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    People seem to have a very short memory when it comes to Toyota and GM. GM has put the Capital monies up for joint ventures between the two for the best part of the last thirty years. Get intimate with the braking systems and engine on these two manufacturers. You will find some of the engine designs being swapped, sold or shared between the two. What is the I-force engine based on? I may be about 5 years off on the 23%, but you need to know the history of these two. GM is not going away. Different parts of the company yes. Don't be so short sited. GM as far as Hybrids are way ahead. They just don't see a viable market at this time. What penny pinching average Joe is going to pay 6 to 8K more for the same model vehicle and only get about 20% better MPGs. Ok for the slow people 30MPG +20% is 36MPG. Most people can't wait 5 to 10 years to recoup the added costs of the Hybrid system. Look at what price GM is going to Offer the Saturn VUE Hybrid. It will be equal in cost to the Honda Civic. A family can fit in it and still get about 32 on the highway. GM is changing to meet Market conditions. This is just a bump in the road.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    LMAO! :P

    Well, time will tell, won't it? GM's only profitable division is its financial services companies, like GMAC/DITECH. Same with Ford. They will go under with their pension obligations unless they get help. That much isn't in dispute. Perhaps they can turn it around......perhaps.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Valid point with the pensions. But one much overlooked and ignored problem is employee accountability when it comes to work performance and quality. The unions don't allow it. Unions will always blame management for not being able to compete. These unions with their unwillingness to allow these companies to compete will put their members out of work just like the Big Steel Mills. I've always believed when you work for someone else you work like your working for yourself. (Now you can say I'm ranting!)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    People seem to have a very short memory when it comes to Toyota and GM. GM has put the Capital monies up for joint ventures between the two for the best part of the last thirty years. Get intimate with the braking systems and engine on these two manufacturers. You will find some of the engine designs being swapped, sold or shared between the two. What is the I-force engine based on?

    Cite specific references, please. Otherwise I do accept your opinion although it may not be factual.

    I used to sell steel to NUMMI, the JV in Fremont, when it first began so I know a little about the history there. Now if you go back into the 50-60's then yes often people dropped a Chevy engine into an FJ, but that was an aftermarket mod.

    If you have specific references I'd love to see them. TIA.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    These unions with their unwillingness to allow these companies to compete will put their members out of work just like the Big Steel Mills. I've always believed when you work for someone else you work like your working for yourself. (Now you can say I'm ranting!)

    Now this is true. I was in the steel business for 25 yrs and sold to the Big 3 at that time. The situation of Big Steel is a precursor to what is occuring now with the detroiters. It's nearly the same only 20 yrs later. One other key difference is that it was Americans that killed the old Steel dinosauers. Ken Iverson and his mini-mill innovators were too quick and too efficient for the big mills.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    I don't care about "you" accepting my "Opinion". I'd don't accept yours either. NUMMI was done with GM Capital and Toyota's production practices. So what. Time will tell. Toyota has great PR. Look at the development of Toyota's "I-force" engine and see what I'm talking about. Good Luck.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    This was taken from
    http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/300_hybrids/fact_hybrid_bus.html

    "engine and a hybrid transmission consisting of two 100 kW motors and a 600-volt, nickel metal hydride battery pack. The engine is coupled to an electronically variable transmission that provides an infinite range of gear ratios to drive the wheels."

    After some digging I found that Cummins engines in the 250-280Hp are the prime movers for the above. And a max service speed of 65mph was quoted.

    First I have to say no hybrid bus can be that efficient that still needs to install a Cummins 280Hp diesel that is probably running full time in summer to power a 6 ton A/C for driver comfort.

    Second when route averages are often below 10 mph in urban areas having a vehicle capable of 65 mph is somewhat overspec'd for the job, wouldn't you say ?

    GM Allison can't take all the blame. After all, it's not an electrical engineer's signature that appears on their customer order form.

    Recently I came across a study by two researchers in Britain which found the same insanity exists there.
    They discovered that diesel operators received a fuel subsidy whereas operators of electric surface transport and light rail transit did not. In fact they received no government credits at all although it was the stated aim of the government to reduce vehicle pollution in cities !

    Making phone calls to manufacturers revealed that with a replacement of only 3000 buses a year in Britain this was not a big enough market for them to get seriously interested. Hence the miniscule progress in the last 25 years.

    Bus systems were not properly specified for the routes and this incurred much greater expense than needed.

    On a personal note I still remember back in 1965 a driver remarking that he was told that his vehicle, a brand new 85 seater doubledecker Leland 'Atlantean', was capable of 100mph although we were both aware none of these vehicles would be permitted to exceed 40mph 'in service'.

    The researchers concluded that amongst other things that buses limited to 90Kw powerplants in order to be eligible for goverment funding would promote a less cavalier approach to vehicle design. Levelling of the playing field by eliminating fuel subsidies would also ensure 'sound' decisions by local authorities for encouraging the adoption of greener technology.

    T2
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    "After some digging I found that Cummins engines in the 250-280Hp are the prime movers for the above. And a max service speed of 65mph was quoted." The main reason Cummins ILS engines are being the prime movers is costs. A 50 series Detroit is almost twice the cost of a similar Cummins. When your talking 18 to 25K per engine. Detroits take more abuse and produce more torque. The Cummins is designed with a Cylinder head gasket which tend to fail around 120,000 miles. The costs of a replacement Cummins is around 8K. The detroit costs more to rebuild. It's simple dollars and cents. And in the US Mass Transit the government regulates what you can spend their money on. The cost of light rail or Electric Mass Transit is not so much the vehicles but the infastructure. maintenance costs. Bus fleet cost per mile is around $2.40 while rail is $3.00+. These costs are Operating not Capital. The Capital costs for Rail are much higher. 300,000 per bus and 1,000,000+ per light rail vehicle.
    As for being overspeced. No theses Hybrid buses also need to travel on expressways at 55 MPH or 65 MPH depending what types of service is being required. Also Mass Transit systems are required in Emergencies to provide support. And a forty foot transit bus can safely move 60+ people at one time without being restricted to an external electrical power source which fail from time to time.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Check this pup:

    The Sandstorm, from the Hyundai Kia America Design Center, steers close to the familiar look of the classic dune buggy. Eco points for this "biodiesel electric plug-in hybrid" would come from features including solar-powered cooling, detachable recycling bins and recyclable polyethylene terephthalate (PETE) panels, so that riders can quickly change the color scheme to suit the mood.

    image
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 6,094
    Yea, I liked the Sandstorm too. Started up a discussion about the design contest http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0fdf17

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  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    Hi goodcrd,

    good post, whereas I was calling to question incompetent design supporting unrealistic specifications you've taken it to a whole new level by tearing into the Cummins engine itself.

    I've always thought of Cummins as a top tier supplier but according to you they have a head gasket problem at 120,000 miles. And if Cummins knows about this then they don't seem to be doing anything about it on account of the fact that they are less expensive than the more robust Detroit diesels ?

    Hmm, I wonder if Cummins is aware that Toyota has bought into ISUZU to gain ready access to Isuzu's commercial market ? Cummins needs to get more serious about its defects or Toyota will do to them what it has done to GM.

    I am not a romantic towards trams and trolleybuses but it is a simple fact that the costs asociated with railbed and power distribution systems were subsumed by those operators whereas the roadbed system being part of the 'commonwealth' was provided almost free to operators of diesel buses. If buses had to pay a more justifiable fee for use of the road bed commensurate with their usage then electric transport might still be around.

    The Capital costs for Rail are much higher. 300,000 per bus and 1,000,000+ per light rail vehicle.

    And I bet the average speed for the LRT is also three times higher and more deterministic, not sure thats a valid comparison.
    In case you would bring up rail track costs I might remind you that the payback for libraries and opera houses is almost non existent as well. Should we not have them too ?

    As for being overspeced. No these Hybrid buses also need to travel on expressways at 55 MPH or 65 MPH depending what types of service is being required. .

    I was not suggesting that transit authorities limit themselves with lower power vehicles for their whole fleet but only for the 90% of the routes that do. Same argument as between hybrid electric cars and off road yacht-towing SUVs.

    Also Mass Transit systems are required in Emergencies to provide support. And a forty foot transit bus can safely move 60+ people at one time without being restricted to an external electrical power source which fail from time to time

    I would like to agree with you on this one but recent experiences with New Orleans showed that emergency services even in peace time by the most advanced nation on the planet are not competent to do this. Anyway I would see this as an unreasonable requirement of mass transport that is seeking to be as nonpolluting as possible. I might ask what emergency need was fulfilled in the past by having this capability ? This sounds more like a 'want' than a reasonable 'need' to me.

    reliance on an external electrical power source which fail from time to time

    OK, let's get back to diesel hybrids and avoid that problem!

    T2
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    You are totally off. I don't know what lines you were reading between but your lost. Cummins has nothing to worry about by Isuzu. Isuzu doesn't make an engine that can handle the demands which these engines operate under. And you definitly don't understand Mass Transit. Light rail, Bus or whatever the mode. Toyota has been caught coping america for years. It started before WWII. The US when they captured Toyota trucks found they could use chevy engine parts interchangeably. They reverse engineer everything. Ship builders used to put mistakes in their patent drawings because the Japanese used to copy the prints and try to build it them themselves. Check your history a little better and stop believing all the hype. Get real. The US corners the Market on Automotive Technology. And for all the people that believe the old GM car diesel engines of the 1980 were modified gas engines "wrong". The major reason for the failures were unknowledgeable people using the wrong type engine oils and poor grade diesel fuel. The wrong oil caused main engine bearing failure and oil related ware problems. The poor fuel caused fuel related problems. Better filtration systems exist now because of it. Good Luck, you need it.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    Analyze this

    http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/rpt/121813.pdf

    I guess a persons views on reverse engineering depends on who's doing it. ! ;)
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Old Technology!!! The theory and technology used here has been around since the 1970's. Toyota just put it in passenger cars. It is just too expensive!! You won't get the return on your investment as a consumer. Like I said get real. Since Toyota is starting to put 8 cylinder engines in so called work truck Tundra's (T100 name was trashed because it couldn't compete and didn't do well). Lets see how the drive trains hold up after 80K. The transmissions are going to fail between 60 to 80K. Time will tell.
  • I checked the patent literature and found a 1979 U.S. patent for using a thermoelectric device to convert some of a hybrid vehicle exhaust heat to electricity. I ran a Google search and found that only the Toyota Estima minivan uses this or a similar technology. If 1/3 of the heat generated by combustion is ordinarily lost as heat, and if 1/5 of this could be converted to electricity (and sent to the hybrid storage batteries), this would give us an increase of overall efficiency of 1/3 * 1/5 = 1/15 = 6.66%. This should, therfore, be economically worthwhile. So: does anyone else on this list have more information of the appropriate thermoelectric device and associated wiring to use?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Is there a lot of anger bubbling up trying to get out? I get the impression that the 'T' word sets off something inside you that's 60 yrs old or so.

    Pre-WWII trucks?

    uh.. V8's have been in 'T' vehicles since 1998. They and the transmissions are doing fine thanks.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    An answer to the anger whatever. NO! I'm just a little surprised of the Toyota hugging, foreign made is better then American nonsense your pushing. Just keep sending your money overseas and believing all the hype. As for the fullsize Toyotas having no trans issues, Wrong. Also how about Toyota being forced to recall about 1.5 million cars by the Japan government due to a lose of life steering component issue. Toyota use to hide recalls. What I'm tying to get through to a Toyota biased person is that Toyota is no better then any other auto maker. So get real. Or could you be employed by Toyota or one of it's dealers? Ask a contractor who depends on their work truck who makes the best truck. Ford!!! And I don't like Fords in general. I like GM and Dodge. GM makes the best V6 engines and most durable transmission in general. Dodge makes the best four cylinder engines and small FWD trans. Ford makes the best breathing V8's and the best Straight 6 cylinder engines. The best V8 is the one use in the Corvette. And Toyota makes Toys for people like you.
    Now back to what this thread is about. Hybrid Diesels.
    For a small fuel efficent car or truck a Hybrid diesel is not cost effective. A diesel engine is more efficent then a gas engine by about 20%. The cost of adding an existing hybrid system to a small diesel will not be recovered for many years after purchase. Think about it. It doesn't pay to spend more then it will save in initial costs. Gm already has a small hybrid diesel. It can't be sold here because of the emissions requirements. This soon will be overcome. But again the existing hybrid systems other then a mild hybrid like the Saturn VUE will cost too much to be practical. There is new engine technology like the Scuderi design which should improve engine efficiency while lowering emissions. Should be more cost effective and practical in the next 5 to 7 years. Why pursue the gas electric which companies like Toyota and Honda are pushing. Your only seeing what is being presented, go deeper. How about the MYT engine. I think its neat but I really don't think it will be fuel efficent. The Scuderi design has the best chance. Have you looked at Eaton's electric hybrid and hydraulic hybrid designs. They use whatever engine the user specs. Guess what! These are all American designs. Go figure, Oh, but what about Toyota. Using old technology found in US engineering schools for years. That is what Teas me off. Just give it all away and our children will pay for their parents buying US technology used overseas and sold back to us and there go the jobs. Go ahead buy Toyota then stick your head in the sand. Be careful soon the US "sand" may be owned by "Toyota". Good Day.
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