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Hybrid Diesels?

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  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    An answer to the anger whatever. NO! I'm just a little surprised of the Toyota hugging, foreign made is better then American nonsense your pushing. Just keep sending your money overseas and believing all the hype. As for the fullsize Toyotas having no trans issues, Wrong. Also how about Toyota being forced to recall about 1.5 million cars by the Japan government due to a lose of life steering component issue. Toyota use to hide recalls. What I'm tying to get through to a Toyota biased person is that Toyota is no better then any other auto maker. So get real. Or could you be employed by Toyota or one of it's dealers? Ask a contractor who depends on their work truck who makes the best truck. Ford!!! And I don't like Fords in general. I like GM and Dodge. GM makes the best V6 engines and most durable transmission in general. Dodge makes the best four cylinder engines and small FWD trans. Ford makes the best breathing V8's and the best Straight 6 cylinder engines. The best V8 is the one use in the Corvette. And Toyota makes Toys for people like you.

    No hugging. No vehicle is made by divine hands so all are subject problems and potenial recalls. It's how the problems are handled. After 17 years and $400 in total 'unexpected expenses' they've earned my trust. Even the Prius which had the steering recall done last month cost me nothing and in no way put me out. It's a non-issue, it's fixed, it's done.

    Now the rest of this rant is just goofieness..some of it's hilarious. 4c? ( You must be kidding ). The best V6 now is made by Toyota or Nissan or even Hyundai.

    What I'm tying to get through to a Toyota biased person is that Toyota is no better then any other auto maker. So get real. Or could you be employed by Toyota or one of it's dealers? Ask a contractor who depends on their work truck who makes the best truck. Ford!!! And I don't like Fords in general. I like GM and Dodge. GM makes the best V6 engines and most durable transmission in general. Dodge makes the best four cylinder engines and small FWD trans. Ford makes the best breathing V8's and the best Straight 6 cylinder engines. The best V8 is the one use in the Corvette. And Toyota makes Toys for people like you.

    And wait until you see what the new 5.7L in the Tundra does to the others. It is so far off the scale that you won't believe your eyes. How about this little tidbit.
    New Tundra 5.7L vs F150 5.4L... The Tundra is faster 0-60 and then brakes to a stop before the F150 even gets to 60. It's ridiculous what this will do to the industry. Only the GMT900's are close to the new Tundra.

    BTW don't be surprised if Daimler puts a bullet in the head of Dodge and Chrysler and keeps Jeep. Did you see yesterday that in order to move the 2006 RAMs which are becoming lot anchors Dodge has incentives of $15000 !!!! Despite how good they are... :surprise: ... apparently it hasn't been reflected in the public's willingness to buy them.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled thread..

    For a small fuel efficent car or truck a Hybrid diesel is not cost effective.

    You are sure of this now? What if Toyuzu comes out with an $18,000 hybrid diesel that get's 70-80 mpg in 2010?

    Gm already has a small hybrid diesel. It can't be sold here because of the emissions requirements

    You will have to give me a link to what this vehicle is because it is unknown to me? You wouldn't be making things up would you now? Where can someone find this small GM diesel hybrid?

    Oh, but what about Toyota. Using old technology found in US engineering schools for years. That is what Teas me off. Just give it all away and our children will pay for their parents buying US technology used overseas and sold back to us and there go the jobs. Go ahead buy Toyota then stick your head in the sand. Be careful soon the US "sand" may be owned by "Toyota". Good Day.

    Your anger is getting the better of you again. When GM relocates most of it's facilities to China and Ford sells off it's European parts and moves everything to Mexico and Daimler kills off Dodge and Chrysler... you better hope that Toyota and Honda and Hyundai step in and hire new people to make up for the ones the detroiters ditched.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Yo Toy boy. Here's your link http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/100_news/astra_011005.html and you definitly don't have a clue. But you have the right to your opinion. And your what if's for 2010. What are they going to copy and improve on GM's work again. Be real.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,896
    Let's back off on making comments about each other and stick to discussing the vehicles please.

    It's VERY easy for these things to spiral into personal disputes, so let's back off a bit right now please.

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  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Thanks for the link. It's a concept so it doesn't really exist but it does look interesting. Tks.

    Rather than allowing Toyota to improve on GM's design...GM should just bring it to market first.. get the profits and take the glory.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    You still don't get it. It's not cost effective. There is a "concept" called point of diminishing returns. And small hybrid diesels are past that point right now. Say if fuel costs go to $5.00 per gallon then maybe. A Hybrid diesel like the Opel should conservatively get 50 mpg combined. It's non-hybrid version 40 mpg. That is a 25% increase. At $5.00 per gallon that's $0.125/mile non-hybrid and $0.100/mile for the hybrid version. Over 150,000 miles the difference works out to be $3,750 in fuel costs savings. That will take 6+ years to recover the initial costs at $5.00 per gallon, longer at $3.00. At $3.00 per gallon it works out to $2,250 for the same 150,000 miles. Not practical!! Advanced engines which are more efficent like the Scuderi design are better solutions and are easier and more cost effective to Hybridtise. Now this is my estimate on when you will see this engine in production and used in a production vehicle. 5 years. Shortly after most manufactures get their diesel models to pass US EPA emission standards. When it comes to doing business glory has nothing to do with it. It's all dollars and cents. You can't eat glory.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The Prius wasn't cost effective when it was first introduced in 2000 but Toyota took the risk so that by next year they will havesold nearly a million of the hybrids.

    Seriously now, Maybe that is the very point of all of this. GM should bring this to market in the same way Toyota and Honda did in 2000. Take the risk. It looks good. It'll probably get great gas mileage. Just Do It.

    Since 2000 Toyota and Honda have shipped nearly 1.0 Million hybrids and gathered all the good press and probably some profit. They took the risk. If the GM product is more than a skin over an idea then put it on the market. If they keep dragging their feet then Toyuzu and Honda and Renault all will have the diesel hybrid here first, making money and getting the good press.

    Now if it is just a skin over an engineer's dream then maybe it's not ready for the road. You can bet that in 2010 a Toyuzu diesel hybrid will be here. Gm better have this Opel ready as well.

    GM faithful are dying for GM to do something dramatic, like the Saturn announcement this week, to show that GM understands the surge of buying interest in fuel efficient vehicles.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    Say if fuel costs go to $5.00 per gallon then maybe. A Hybrid diesel like the Opel should conservatively get 50 mpg combined. It's non-hybrid version 40 mpg. That is a 25% increase. At $5.00 per gallon that's $0.125/mile non-hybrid and $0.100/mile for the hybrid version. Over 150,000 miles the difference works out to be $3,750 in fuel costs savings. That will take 6+ years to recover the initial costs at $5.00 per gallon, longer at $3.00. At $3.00 per gallon it works out to $2,250 for the same 150,000 miles. Not practical!!

    Isn't this vehicle being introduced in Europe? If so then gas prices would have to go down to hit $5/gallon. Actually I've never understood why manufacturers are making hybrid versions of these already fuel efficient vehicles like the 40 mpg Opal. Take a 20 mpg vehicle and increase its fuel efficiency by this same 25% and you'll save twice as much money on fuel.

    When people talk about not recovering the hybrid premium they seem to rarely mention the resale value. If you get rid of your car after 3 years it will probably be worth about 50% of what you paid for it. So at that time you recover half of the hybrid premium.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    About 74 mpg US plus 20 miles in all EV mode - BRILLIANT !!

    I'd buy that car today if it were for sale in the USA.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Too bad this car never made it into production.

    Hybrid diesel 4-dr sedan, 108 MPG in the year 2000.

    GM Precept

    The hybrid-electric Precept is driven by a battery-powered electric traction system that moves the front wheels, and a lightweight, 1.3-liter, 3-cylinder diesel engine in the rear. The direct-injection engine, featuring turbocharged compression ignition, was developed by Isuzu Motor Co. Ltd., one of GM's Asian affiliates.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Hmmm..... now Toyota owns this share in Isuzu that GM used to own. That's very interesting since it was announced that Toyota and Isuzu would have a hybrid diesel out in 2010.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Good point and connection.....:D

    Looks like Toyota now has that engine, and they already have had the hybrid side, so all they gotta do is put 1 and 1 together, and with their superior HSD technology over whatever GM had in the Precept......we might get 110-120 MPG in the diesel/electric hybrid they build.

    KDH, will you sell me one of these when they build it ??? :shades:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yep right after I get mine. ;)

    My Prius will be 5y.o. then and have about 200,000 miles so I'll be ready. :shades:
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... A thermodynamicist might say, the turbo takes heat and turns it into rotation, but let's look at what actually happens. Some of the efficiency is a reduction in pumping losses, but a big on-highway truck, at a fairly common 40 pounds of boost, is making fifty horsepower, just by turning the intake stroke into a power stroke, not even considering the increased cylinder filling. If you take the standard BMEP equation and go to the IMEP equation with, the 40 pounds pressure, with a nominal 850 cubes that is the horsepower created.

    ... This is a little harder to calculate, because I don't know the BSFC numbers from back then. The performance of todays vehicles is taken for granted but the level would take a non turbo engine of 1500 cubes. Back in the early Sixties turbos where almost as rare as they are ubiquitous today and most typical normally aspirated, 850 cube engines, made horsepower in the low two hundred level; today drivers expect 500 plus hp.
  • lensmanlensman Posts: 5
    I will try and post a sane distillation of whats in my head!

    I know the major thing holding back all electric vehicles per se is battery technology, we can't get enough juice for the given size/weight to make an electric car go the distance we would want out of a family car (what about 350 miles on a tank) I also know that even the latest li-poly batteries still take a while to charge...

    I also know that if we all made a slight change in our driving habits and if our workplaces would provide sockets for charging your car whilst at work and our respective governments help put in place the infastructure for charging your car at home(I live in an appartment without a garage, so running an extension cord out to the car would get me loads of more headache :) ) we could all live with and love the current best of breed electric cars (tesla roadster is an example of the right technology, but, the wrong application for most of us)

    That said I also think a better more gradual change involves, hybrid cars that still run on petrol, but, eek out the most efficiency out of the fossil fuel and as a by product lower emissions drastically. Which brings me to the meat of my post, Ive posted some of this here before, but talked about a diesel engine powering a generator that charges an onboard battery and drives an electric motor that drives the wheels (a serial hybrid). I realise that by adding the conversion from fossil fuel to electricity and storing most if it then converting it back to motive power to the wheels involves a few losses of efficiency. But really how much are we talking here?

    Im going to make some assumptions here: (these are not based in fact, just my guess)
    Typical motor electricity to motive power efficiency: 85-90%
    Typical generator motive to electricity efficiency: 80-90%

    So a simple scenario where we replace the drive train (gearbox, clutch, drive shafts) with a generator coupled directly to our gasonline engine, which then powers a motor driving the wheels, would net us a lower estimate of about 68% of the engine output (85% * 80%).

    With the original clutch/gearbox in place I know you lose some of the engine power too, what is this roughly, about 10-15%? Would this electric drivetrain be any lighter than the equivalent mechanical drive train(gearbox, clutch) I know drive shafts would be needed for the electric motor too, but with in wheel motors being talked about this too might not be needed!

    How much loss in efficiency in using this electric drive train are we a talking about over the mechanical drive train? My of the top of the head guess would put it about 20%.

    Now couldnt this be efficiency loss be made up in using a smaller lighter gasoline engine (3 cylinder, lean burn, 1-1.5 litre capacity) that has been tuned to run at a higher rpm with turbo charging if necassary?

    Wouldnt focusing on a smaller lighter more efficient gasoline engine that dont need to provide a wide power band, just a very small highly efficient band of power producing electricity to power the motor. (you could even include some ultracapicators that could soak up the excess electricity produced if the car is moving too slowly for amount of electrical power the gasoline engine/generator combo is producing and if you were to use regenarative braking, this could then be used to provide extra power to the motor when needed, or when restarting the gasoline engine if its been shutdown)

    Sorry that this post is long, but, Im fascinated by all of this, should have been an engineer instead of the desk bound computer programmer that I am !!!!

    Any ideas, criticism is welcome as is any kind soul that can point out any huge holes in my understanding or concept.

    Its all gone very quiet on this board of late!
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    This is a follow on from my previous post on over-powered hybrid transit buses.

    ***************
    "engine and a hybrid transmission consisting of two 100 kW motors and a 600-volt, nickel metal hydride battery pack. The engine is coupled to an electronically variable transmission that provides an infinite range of gear ratios to drive the wheels."

    After some digging I found that Cummins engines in the 250-280Hp are the prime movers for the above. And a max service speed of 65mph was quoted.
    ****************************

    Elsewhere someone provided these links regarding the iconic London Transport double decker bus. tfl= transport for London

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/03/17/first-hybrid-double-decker-bus-hits-the-- road-in-london/

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp- ?prID=1082&source=RSS&section=press

    The release didn't state the manufacturer of the 1.9L diesel engine that powers this vehicle. The vehicle itself was built by WrightBus Limited. No indication was given either whether this was in fact a government funded project along the lines suggested by those researchers, that government funding be awarded only for designs with a 90Kw power ceiling.

    In the light of what WrightBus have achieved it's hard to see why Allison would need 210Kw for their vehicle. But if I was running GM I would be asking questions.

    T2
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Lensman, check out my post # 187 in the Tesla thread.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Good Job DC !!! KUDOS !!!

    The Dodge Sprinter PHEV has the ability to drive up to 20 miles on electric-only power. It accomplishes this with a switch on the dashboard giving the operator the ability to manually switch between modes as needed, or automatically by the vehicle control system. Two different combustion engines are being offered in the Dodge Sprinter PHEV -- diesel or asoline. The diesel version will yield the highest fuel economy benefit and is the first fleet test of a diesel plug-in hybrid system.
  • transpowertranspower Posts: 185
    Because there is no currently available SUV with a Hybrid-Diesel I purchased a 2008 Mercury Mariner Hybrid-Atkinson. The Atkinson cycle really is quite good--it has nearly complete expansion as opposed to the Otto cycle, which does not. On the 2008 EPA ratings, the 4WD Mariner (and its sibling Escape) is supposed to get 29 mpg city, 27 mpg highway, 28 mgp combined. Mine is not, of course, broken in yet, but I got 26 mpg on the first fillup, 24.5 on the second, and currently am getting 27.7. We'll see in a few thousand miles...I'm hoping to achieve 30 mpg!
  • transpowertranspower Posts: 185
    I recently had to drive to Southfield, Michigan from Trevose, Pennsylvania, and back--a total of over 1200 miles. In my 2008 Mercury Mariner Atkinson-Hybrid I got 31 mpg going West and 32 mpg going East, the difference probably being due to the difference in wind direction. So I easily made my goal of 30 mpg or better!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Diesel plus hybrid equals 70+mpg

    link title

    The latest diesel-powered cars offered in Europe come close to - and in a lot of cases beat - hybrid-electric cars like Toyota's Prius in the mileage stakes, so imagine what would happen if you combined the best of both technologies. France's Peugeot hopes to do just that and by becoming the first carmaker to launch a diesel-electric hybrid by the end of the decade.

    The recently launched midsize Peugeot 308 hatch will be the first vehicle fitted with the new powertrain, but it's likely other models will soon follow suit if it proves to be successful.

    The Peugeot diesel hybrid should average better than 70mpg (58.3mpg US), which would mean its emissions levels would be lower than most other cars except for pure electric vehicles. By comparison, the Prius rates 65.7mpg (54.7mpg US). However, most motoring mags have found its real-world fuel economy ratings to be much lower.

    The only factor holding back the release of the hybrid 308 is the high cost of the batteries and electric motor, but engineers are working hard to make the technology more affordable.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Smoking hot diesel hybrid for sale in 2010

    Now they have it testing at 80 MPG on the Euro circuit, or about 67 MPG USA.

    Of course the lucky Europeans will get it first GRRRRRRRRRR !!!
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