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Hybrid Diesels?

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Comments

  • "They pass the US EPA regulations without a problem even with our lousy diesel in many areas."

    The new regulation is taking effect now but will not take ful effect until 2007 or 2009. I am not sure what they mean by the "full effect". The cleanest diesel from Europe does not meet current(soon to take full effect) US emission. In Europe, diesels are allowed to pollute more.

    "The Porsche Cayenne would give up almost 200 hp if it used the RX400h HSD."

    What? Cayenne 6-cyl makes 247hp. RX400H 6-cyl HSD produces 270hp. It is time to realize the power of HSD. ;-D

    "The Cayenne is 1500 lbs. heavier than the RX400h."

    6-cyl Cayenne weight: 4785 lbs
    6-cyl RX330 weight: 3860 lbs
    Difference: 925 lbs

    "That is a weblogger's dream."

    Read the news! http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8- - - - - - &q=porsche+hybrid

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    MB E320 CDI and the VW TDI cars sell as fast as they get them off the boat. Mercedes sold more of the E320 CDI vehicles than they had expected. They all meet the 45 states emissions standards or they would not be allowed in the country.

    As for the Porsche. I cannot imagine any die hard Porsche fan buying a Porsche with a Toyota engine. It is ludicrous and almost sinful. I was referring to the Cayenne V8 turbo which is the only reason to buy a Cayenne, Sheer performance...
  • "I cannot imagine any die hard Porsche fan buying a Porsche with a Toyota engine."

    If Porsche decided to go with 400H drivetrain, they might use their own engine to mate with Hybrid Synergy Drive; like Nissan Altima hybrid. Ultimate smooth shiftless instant power response that HSD offers is what Porsche buys would appreciate.

    "I was referring to the Cayenne V8 turbo "

    Well, V8 HSD is coming out on 2007 with Tundra hybrid as well as other performance HSD cars. Interesting you mentioned the turbo because there will be no turbo lag with HSD due to high torque at low RPM from the electric motors.

    Dennis
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Turbo Diesel also recirculate exhaust gas in order to achieve mpg near HSD hybrids.

    I'm lost. Dennis, explain to me how this recirculation helps achieve higher mpg.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    Turbo Diesel also recirculate exhaust gas in order to achieve mpg near HSD hybrids.

    I'm lost. Dennis, explain to me how this recirculation helps achieve higher mpg.


    I agree, it's emissions only. I have "adjusted" my TDI (temporarily of course) to by-pass the EGR system and there is no change in mpg. In fact, the EGR only operates under mainly just off-idle conditions mostly when driving in the city. I have mapped the EGR use with VAG software. Turning it off just increases emissions. It also reduces the sooty garbage that gets injected back into the motor and causes performance problems and also leads to DECREASED mpg. This is why folks that drive a lot of city miles with the TDI have clogged intake manifolds if they don't take precautions against these goofy emissions systems. Until low-sulphur diesel arrives, even these low-end emissions controls are problematic.
  • "I'm lost. Dennis, explain to me how this recirculation helps achieve higher mpg."

    The main purpose of EGR is to lower NOx emission by reducing oxygen-to-nitrogen ratio. Since the exhuast gas is being recirculated, it is my impression that unburned fuel is also recycled.

    Dennis
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Recycled to burn again? No.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Diesel/electric hybrids in truck - snip - Hino hybrid Truck Coming to North America - Class 4 truck uses same NiMH battery pack as Toyota Prius, easing replacement concerns.

    http://fleetowner.com/news/hino_hybrid_north_america_111104/
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi ElectricTroy:

    … but with the electric assist it would get 10 second acceleration, and still get an amazing 90 miles per gallon of diesel.

    ___Not even close.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • I'd like to see a 90 mpg VW Lupo married with a Civic Hybrid battery.

    The stock 45 hp Lupo has ~15 second 0-60 acceleration, but with the electric assist it would get 10 second acceleration, and still get an amazing 90 miles per gallon of diesel.

    Troy
  • Whatever happened to the Toyota ES3? This was a concept car seen at many auto shows in 2001. It has a turbo-charged Diesel engine, CVT, and electric motor/batteries charged by regenerative braking.

    Reference: http://www.supercars.net/cars/2001@$Toyota@$ES3%20Conceptx.html
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    Demand for both hybrid and diesel vehicles has outstripped supply during the last year. Toyota will double the number of Prius hybrids it manufactures for the U.S. market in 2005 to meet demand, and based on the success of the Civic Hybrid, Honda will begin selling the Accord Hybrid in December. Mercedes-Benz recently increased production of its E320 CDI diesel sedan for the U.S. market to meet demand.

    http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,65273,00.html
  • OK, so no word on the Toyota ES3. What about the Jeep Commander concept vehicle, which is a hybrid fuel cell/battery vehicle with an electric motor at each wheel?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Another Hybrid diesel problem: one truck that was a Hybrid diesel costs $10K more than a comparable diesel:

     

    http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&am- p;sid=185
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    Another interesting article:

     

    Our tax dollars sucked away by big corporations.

     

    General Motors, Ford and DaimlerChrysler all came up with fuel-sipping diesel hybrids in the 1990s under the U.S. government-backed Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles, but never marketed them.

     

    Notice they don't mention gas hybrids as being viable in the future. One of the reasons. The Accord hybrid produces over 50% more GHG than a VW TDI.

     

    A study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Laboratory for Energy and the Environment found that even with aggressive research, fuel-cell cars won't beat diesel hybrids on total energy use or greenhouse gas emissions by 2020. It concluded that intense research on a diesel-engine hybrid could produce by 2020 a vehicle that is twice as efficient and half as polluting as fuel-cell cars including the emissions and energy used to deliver the fuel and make the vehicle.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"One of the reasons. The Accord hybrid produces over 50% more GHG than a VW TDI."-end quote

     

    Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions*

     Worst Best

     

    Accord Hybrid: 6.0 tons

    Jetta Diesel: 5.1 tons

     

    So it's actually only 15% more......:)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    So it's actually only 15% more......:)

     

    I stand corrected. The EPA site just got around to posting the HAH. I used the V6 Accord GHG rating which is 7.8 tons earlier this morning. So they did clean that V6 up with IMA. I wonder if that is dependent on it getting the mileage rating they are hoping for...
  • I wonder if that is dependent on it getting the mileage rating they are hoping for

     

    I would have to say OBVIOUSLY.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I wonder if that is dependent on it getting the mileage rating they are hoping for...

     

    It isn't based on hope, but standard procedure adopted across the board regardless of the vehicle being gasoline, diesel, alternate fuel or hybrid driven.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    For some unknown reason the EPA has not been real close on some of the hybrids notably the Prius II. Were they overly optimistic for political reasons? It looks like they are averaging across the board 49 combined MPG. Only about 10% of those reporting are averaging the EPA 55 mpg combined rating. I would not consider that a good estimate on the part of a rating institute. What they should put on the window sticker is 90% of drivers will not get this high mileage.

     

    The Honda Civic & Insight are much closer to the EPA rating. Maybe Toyota has friends in the EPA....
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    EPA standards are just that, standards. They lack flexibility, and cannot be expected to. In case of traditional ICE vehicles, there are plenty of variables that add to the variations when compared in real life. Throw in a mild hybrid system, and you add a little more. Besides all the ICE related complexities in creating a “solid” standard, mild hybrids would produce different results if the “drive” happens to rely too much on ICE or quite a bit on the hybrid system (too many stop lights, where a typical ICE would get you 0 mpg, a hybrid may not be burning any).

     

    A full hybrid system goes beyond the two (ICE only and mild hybrid) because it has its own variances. Under some conditions, the vehicle drives in electric only mode, but that may change at some point during the “drive”. So, if the test procedure happens to pick up the first phase (more electric), you get exceptional fuel economy and low emissions. Reverse it and the results would be different.

     

    So, real time results will vary considerably compared to EPA standards. I see more so with full hybrids than with mild hybrids than with conventional ICE. It all depends on the “drive”.
  • "Was the EPA they overly optimistic for political reasons? It looks like they are averaging across the board 49 combined MPG. Only about 10% of those reporting are averaging the EPA 55 mpg combined "

     

    .

     

    The EPA's city ratings are screwed up. They advertise 60 City for the Prius, but no one who live in the city actually achieves that. (And of course the skews the combined mpg too.)

     

    When comparing hybrids, the only number that is accurate is the Highway number. Both Prius & civic owners are getting close to the EPA-advertised highway average.

     

    troy
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Ford concept pairs electric, diesel - Mercury's Meta One vehicle features a low-emission, turbo-charged V-6. The Meta One's powertrain combines a fuel-saving electric motor with a twin-turbocharged V-6 diesel engine. The pairing has one big benefit: lower emission levels.

     

    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0412/26/B01-41965.htm
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I was not aware of this fact:

     

    "General Motors, Ford and DaimlerChyrsler each completed diesel- electric hybrid cars in early 2000 that could get 80 miles to the gallon, but have largely abandoned these projects because of the new air pollution rules. They are now struggling to catch up with Toyota and Honda in the production of hybrid vehicles that use electric power to improve the overall fuel efficiency of vehicles with gasoline engines."

     

    Read the entire article here:

     

    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/27/business/27DIES.html?ex=1105160- 400&en=dba07d56033beb7a&ei=5070&oref=login&ex=108- 6321600&en=79e288a1fbe7e8c8&ei=5070
  • "but have largely abandoned these diesel- electric projects because of the new air pollution rules."

     

    QUESTION: Why do reporters post lies like this??? These 80 mpg cars were part of the Partership for Next Gen Vehicles (PNGV), and was killed by BUSH in 2000. They were killed by *politics* because the PNGV program shut down. Similar reason why the EV1 was killed.

     

    .

     

    In reality, both Ford & Chrysler/Dodge will be importing their clean Focus & Intrepid diesels from Europe to America in 2006-7. Diesels can & do pass emissions rules when run with sulfur-free fuel.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    They were killed by *politics* because the PNGV program shut down. Similar reason why the EV1 was killed.

     

    We wasted several billion dollars on that PNGV corporate welfare with nothing to show for it. We are getting our innovative, economical vehicles from Japan & Germany, without spending more on "Pork Barrel" politics.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Gagrice:

     

    ___One hyphenated word made by one of the original PNGV manufacturers … Meta-One ;-)

     

    ___Good Luck

     

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000597026670/

     

    Hybrid Diesel by GM. Very interesting! Will this possibly be a Saturn? Hopefully!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    The last paragraph of this little clip is the MOST interesting....

     

    "The morning began with the Motor Press Guild Keynote address given this year by Bernd Pischetsrieder, Chairman of Volkswagen. Mr. Pischetsrieder’s started out by saying that in his opinion the hydrogen economy was not a realistic solution to air pollution concerns. He also stated that having multiple alternative fuels is not good because it is not feasible for drivers to have to hunt around for different fuel sources such as CNG, Ethanol or Bio-diesel.

     

    He put forward the idea that we must look to existing infrastructure to provide the solution which he suggests will be the use of synthetic fuels made from Bio sources like soy beans, or by using the gas normally burned off from oil wells in a gas to liquid fuel process.

     

    He proposed diesel engines running on these synthetic fuels as the solution to CO2 reduction. Currently VW diesel engines don’t meet the strict California emissions standards but VW is committed to meeting the strict new standards taking effect in 2007.

     

    Mr. Pischetsrieder also said that VW are working on a Diesel Hybrid but didn’t give any timeframe for when this might be available to the public. He also said that they were working on an engine that behaved like a diesel at low revs and like a gas engine at higher revs, combining the best qualities of the diesel and the gas engine."

     

    The whole story is here:

     

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=796
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    "that VW are working on a Diesel Hybrid but didn’t give any timeframe"

     

    Nice announcement but no time frame? Dont hold your breath too long!!
This discussion has been closed.