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Chevy Silverado Hybrid Pickup

SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
edited October 24 in Chevrolet
GM Delivers First Full-Size Hybrid Pickup

By JOHN PORRETTO
AP Auto Writer

May 3, 2004, 1:33 PM EDT

DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. delivered the industry's first full-size hybrid pickup Monday to Miami-Dade County, one of 50 such vehicles expected to be added to the county's fleet.

The trucks feature a V-8 engine and four-speed automatic transmission coupled with hybrid technology that delivers 10 percent to 12 percent better fuel economy than GM's conventional half-ton pickups.

GM made the delivery of the Chevrolet Silverado on Monday at a conference in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. Miami-Dade County plans to receive the remainder of the extended-cab hybrid pickups later this month.

....For the full article, see
http://www.greenwichtime.com/business/investing/sns-ap-gm-hybrid-- pickup,0,5412379.story?coll=sns-ap-investing-headlines
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Comments

  • theo2709theo2709 Posts: 476
    10% isn't that much, it's only like a 1.5 mpg increase. This system seems much more beneficial on a work site:

    "The GM hybrid pickups feature four 120-volt, 20 amp electrical auxiliary power outlets under the rear seat of the cab and in the pickup bed that can accommodate up to four accessories while driving or when parked. With this auxiliary generator capability, the truck's generator can operate when the truck is parked without a key in the ignition and can be used to power anything from tools at a construction site to appliances at a campsite.

    In the event of a power outage, the hybrid Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups could power tools or appliances for up to 32 hours non-stop. This design shuts the engine down before the tank is emptied, leaving enough gas to drive to a station for refueling. All power supply circuits are protected by a ground fault detection system to prevent overloads and short circuits."
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,965
    10%, while it may translate to 1.5 MPG is STILL 10% and fairly significant. People are acting as if it's the end of the world when gas prices jump from $1.79 to $1.89. That's only about 5.5%

    Using the truck as an auxilliary generator is an interesting angle...

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  • theo2709theo2709 Posts: 476
    Yes, mathematically it is pretty good. BUT, imagine walking around in the Chevy lot and the regular Silverado says 17 mpg combined. Then you look at the hybrid one next to it and it says 19 mpg combined, but with a few thousand dollars tacked on. Psychologically, it seems a bit pointless.
  • maxx4memaxx4me Posts: 1,340
    you are right: totally pointless. Why even bother? Going from 17 to 19 is an embarrassment, not a feat worth bragging about. Any driver can get that extra 2 gallons by sticking to the speed limit and keeping their cars tuned, and tires inflated.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,846
    >>Any driver can get that extra 2 gallons by sticking to the speed limit and keeping their cars tuned, and tires inflated. <<

    That means the hybrid could also get those extra 2 MPG by sticking to the speed limit & etc.

    I think this points out a possibility with the upcoming hybrids - the heavier the car, the less advantage is given by the hybrid technology. The Highlander and Accord may not be as fuel efficient in real world driving as people are assuming, due to the weight factor alone. For the highlander, one must also factor in the poor c/d.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,965
    We're talking about a vehicle that gets 15 MPG, so any realistic improvement in mileage is going to look like a small number. Think about it in terms of cost. Say you're getting 15 MPG and driving 300 miles per week. For round numbers, assume fuel is costing you $2/gal. 20 gals per week, $40 times 52 = $2080 per year 10 % of that is $208 in your pocket. But you say that's not worth getting because it's "only" 1.5 mpg gained.
    Just for comparison, let's look at a vehicle like my Sentra which got 40 MPG on my last tank of gas. 300 miles/week, $2/gal... that's 7.5 gals/week, $15 times 52 = $780, a savings of only $78 over the course of a year.
    The point is, you're always going to find a raw number that looks SMALL. "only 1.5 mpg gain" or "only $78/year", but that doesn't change the fact that 10% is a significant number. Also, that mileage is on top of the suggested "sticking to the speed limit and keeping their cars tuned, and tires inflated".

    I don't understand how a 10% mileage increase can be considered an "embarrassment".

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  • maxx4memaxx4me Posts: 1,340
    well, let me explain it to you then. How is it that the Escape (which probably gets 24 mpgs in the city on the 4 cylinder model) will get 35 in the city as a hybrid?? 24 + 10% doesn't add up to 35. If good ole Ford can do it, why can't GM??
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,846
    >>How is it that the Escape (which probably gets 24 mpgs in the city on the 4 cylinder model) will get 35 in the city as a hybrid?? 24 + 10% doesn't add up to 35. If good ole Ford can do it, why can't GM?? <<

    The displacements on the two vehicles are completely different. The Chevy has a V8. It is never going to be as efficient as a V4; it has twice the cylinders and probably more than twice the displacement. Driving the two vehicles on an EPA test stand won't help the engine size.

    Additionally, I have not yet read if GM is using a drive that is pure electric until a certain miles per hour, or is like the Honda IMA. The IMA will use those larger cylinders from startup. I think that Ford is using the Toyota method.
  • maxx4memaxx4me Posts: 1,340
    that makes sense that the big V8 with its huge towing capacity would not get the same results. yes, Ford will use the Sanyo battery, and has designed their engine around the Toyota model.
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    of the Silverado will be the fact it will generate electricity for use at construction and other remote sites.

    Generator engines are not regulated. I read once that those commercial Honda generators pollute as much as 4 SUVs.

    Having the generator as part of the truck also elminates using the resources to make a generator, lessens the weight load in the truck, and frees up space in the cargo area.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,846
    For those who genuinely need a large pickup, mostly construction companies, this is actually a good environmental step to have the electricity.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    I agree. 10% is substantial in the scheme of things on a truck. Even from a personal prospective, if I was going to buy a good generator for my home I'd spend more than a couple grand. Having all-in-one on the truck would be nice, plus you're not constantly filling the tank like many small generators. The remote power supply is very useful as well, particularly around a farm or construction site.

    I think the electrical side of these is very limited for propulsion purposes. I read about it somewhere, but it's nothing like the Prius/Escape type hybrids that are forced to rely on very small gas engines when the batteries are expired. While the chances of draining the batteries on a Prius/Escape will likely be slim in normal driving, it would occur very quickly on a truck that was towing or hauling a large load. So if you put a undersized gas motor on the Silverado along with full-bore hybrid technology, the downside would be it would make a terrible truck.
  • We're talking about a vehicle that gets 15 MPG, so any realistic improvement in mileage is going to look like a small number.

    While I agree with yoru math, you start from a very questionable assumption,

    Namely that the EPA alleged 15 mpg will be the REAL Mpg this big truck will obtain.

    Have you seen any serious road tests that produced a Real Mpg Number for the Silverado Hybrid?

    I have not. And tests like the 6-mile loop they did on the EScape Hybrid, driving totally unrealistically to get the highest possible MPG, are NOT serious tests.

    If experience with the Prius and the Honda Hybrids is any Lesson,

    the REAL MPG of the truck should be quite different, and less, than the EPA alleged MPG.

    In addition, if the truck operates in cold weather, forget about it, all the benefits of the hybrid will evaporate.

    BUT most important:

    THE IDEAL Engine for any truck or large SUV is a DIESEL, a MODERN Diesel, with its huge torque at useful low RPM.

    Unfortunately the big 3 charge $4000 extra for these diesels and few people drive them.

    I have seen a Diesel that would make a Ddge Durango get 30 MPG Highweay, vs almsot HALF that with its primitive V-8.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    I have to agree with you on the Silverado Hybrid. Why bother unless it jumps you up to at least 25 mpg around town. I get 14 mpg out of my 99' Suburban & 17-19 mpg on the highway. I am sure the way these things are rushed to market the first Silverado's will spend a lot of time in the warranty shop. Chevy is not big on loaner cars either.
  • terexterex Posts: 26
    What's being missed in all this conversation is the cumulative benefit of having hybrid engines on high volume vehicles. The collective benefit of a 10% fuel "saving" on a volume product like fullsize pickups far outweighs the offsets produced by placing hybrids on low volume relatively efficient compact vehicles. As for the diesels, the price premiums dissuade high purchase rates.
  • 18 of 18 by terex Jun 18, 2004 (7:52 am)
    What's being missed in all this conversation is the cumulative benefit of having hybrid engines on high volume vehicles.

    No.

    What is really missed is how Ecxpensive Hybrids are to produce, and how LITTLE are the benefits.

    One can save just as much gas by driving with the tires properly inflated, avoiding sudden acceleration etc.

    When the Prius and the Civic Hybrids came out, they cost $10,000 MORE than they sold for.

    Toyota claims now that it can produce the prius at a "profit", but I do not yet buy that.

    I suspect that they do not include the huge R&D costs on the vehicle cost.

    You can think abnout it and see for yourself:

    WHY did the Hybrids fail miserably in EUROPE, where gas ius $5.60 -$5.30 a gallon in the UK and Germany, respectively?

    WHY are half new car sales DIESELS, Modern Diesels, NOT your father's Oldsmobile Horrible Diesels, Running on Extra-clean Diesel Fuel, the ultra-low Sulfur variety?

    The collective benefit of a 10% fuel "saving" on a volume product like fullsize pickups far outweighs the offsets produced by placing hybrids on low volume relatively efficient compact vehicles.

    I am not at all sure that the EPA claim of 10% is an accurate one. IF past hybrid mog is any guide, the REAL LLIFE MPG should be much less, almost Eliminating the benefit of the hybrid. And then you are saddled only with the cost, the expencise repairs and replacements, etc. Good luck..

    As for the diesels, the price premiums dissuade high purchase rates.

    These premiums are thrust upon the Diesels only HERE in the US by the GREEDY automakers. It is a short-sighted and WRONG policy. In Europe, there is virtually no such premium.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    As for the diesels, the price premiums dissuade high purchase rates.

    These premiums are thrust upon the Diesels only HERE in the US by the GREEDY automakers. It is a short-sighted and WRONG policy. In Europe, there is virtually no such premium.


    Not exactly, the only diesels available in the trucks are heavy-duty nearly over-the-road diesels. Far overkill for the average 1/2 ton truck, that's a fact. The diesel offered by VW in the TDI is about $1,000 more than the base 2.0L gas motor. It's nearly identical in cost to the turbo-charged gas motor. Except on resale value where the diesel is worth thousands more than either gasser. You'll also get the vast majority of the premium back when you sell a diesel pickup. The new Passat TDI is within a couple hundred bucks of the base turbo-gas engine and less than the V6.
  • #20 of 21 Re: [well_informed #19] by sebring95 Jun 18, 2004 (10:26 am) As for the diesels, the price premiums dissuade high purchase rates.

    These premiums are thrust upon the Diesels only HERE in the US by the GREEDY automakers. It is a short-sighted and WRONG policy. In Europe, there is virtually no such premium.

    Not exactly, the only diesels available in the trucks are heavy-duty nearly over-the-road diesels. Far overkill for the average 1/2 ton truck, that's a fact.

    The diesel in the huge Ford Excursion allws it to almost double its very poor MPG, but costs $4000 extra. If you do a lot of miles, it is a good tradeoff. But not if you don;t.

    The diesel offered by VW in the TDI is about $1,000 more than the base 2.0L gas motor. It's nearly identical in cost to the turbo-charged gas motor. Except on resale value where the diesel is worth thousands more than either gasser.

    I agree VW prices its diesels resasonably, they got far higher resale value, plus they are probably not as unreliable as non-diesel VWs. SO if I bought a VW, I'd only buy a Diesel.

    new Passat TDI is within a couple hundred bucks of the base turbo-gas engine and less than the V6.

    If one does quite a few miles, family trips etc, the Passat Diesel Wagon isi hard to beat, and I bet it can tow as much or more than the more expensive v6 passat too.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    It looks like the government is taken a look at the hybrid GM full size PU. They are claiming 5%-13% improvement over the gas burners. 17 city 19 highway with a 4wd is not my idea of an improvement. The big question is will it pull a 10,000 trailer up a 6% grade? I am sure there will be people that jump on this new truck. Hopefully we get some of the answers to the many questions. Without at least a 50% increase in mpg at the same price for the vehicle, why take the risk?
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    The big question is will it pull a 10,000 trailer up a 6% grade? I am sure there will be people that jump on this new truck.

    Not an issue because the same engine is used regardless of hybrid or other. It's a very light hybrid system that mainly is only in use at very low speeds and for idling. I doubt you'll see any mpg change on the highway in real life (long trips). The EPA highway cycle is NOT just driving on the highway at 65mph, it's a warm start-up, lower speed driving, then some higher speeds. That's why many cars will beat the EPA on long highway only trips. My Tahoe regularly hits 20mpg on long highway legs.

    There's also no Chevy with the 5.3L V8 (used in the hybrid) rated to tow 10,000# anyway, lol! Somewhere around 7500#, which is a lot of work for the 5.3L anyway. I keep my Tahoe around 5,000# and it does the job. Very aggravating though when I'm used to pulling 15,000# easier with a diesel.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    Sounds like the hybrids will be limited to the light duty 1500 series. Most contractors use the 2500-3500 HD trucks. So much for the built-in gen set. Tax credit is kind of wasted also when you can write off a new 6000# vehicle in one year. Diesel pickups are going to still be the way to go.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    I've heard a rumor of the Dodge Ram coming with similar hybrid set-up, but with the Cummins trucks. I imagine the 3/4 trucks will eventually get this if it works. Actually, a huge number of contractors and such use 1/2 ton trucks. Mainly because they're cheap and generally get the job done.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    I was thinking about the Oil field where I work in Alaska. All you ever see is 1 ton diesel crew cabs. Mostly Ford a few Chevys and Never a Dodge. Seems strange with that great Cummins diesel. I think the Oil Companies have closer ties to Ford and GM. No Toyota trucks either. I imagine we will get some hybrids if the fleet price is competitive and they get a tax break from Uncle Sam. BP knows how to milk the governments of all the countries that have oil.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    When I was in corporate, fleet buying was under my supervision. Ford is extremely aggresive on their fleet sales. Our statistics pretty much left us with operating costs that were equal regardless of GM/dodge/ford. Ford generally had a big advantage on the trucks, $1,000 sometimes. Once in awhile, GM would push a particular model that would be a better deal. Dodge rarely did any selling on the fleet side for trucks. GM pushed the cars hard, luminas would come in $500-$1,000 under a Taurus. I understand that Ford is now backing off of fleet sales, at least on the car side. Not sure they'll ever back off of the trucks, they've got a big profit center on them. GM will probably push these into fleets, particularly because fleets are more tolerant of problems and sometimes have better warranties.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    That fits exactly what I am seeing in the field. Also what I heard, that Ford was less expensive.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    >Mostly Ford a few Chevys and Never a Dodge.

    Curious?

    Why never a Dodge? Is a Dodge unreliable?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    Why never a Dodge? Is a Dodge unreliable?

    Not at all. They refuse to give into big corporations on fleet sales. As Sebring95 pointed out Ford usually gives the biggest discount. It all has to do with dollars. I am sure to Exxon or BP a 3/4 ton truck is just that, no matter who makes it. They go for the bottom dollar. If Chevy or Dodge would buckle under they would get the sales.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    all has to do with dollars. I am sure to Exxon or BP a 3/4 ton truck is just that, no matter who makes it. They go for the bottom dollar.

    Exactly. We were buying between 700-900 cars, 300 vans, 300 pickups, 85 medium-duty chassis per year, and if you can save $50 per unit you'll do it as long as the operational costs are similar. The operational and resale was always better on the toyotas/hondas, but the upfront cost was many thousands higher which would never materialize in overall savings. Same thing though on the 1/2 tons, fuel burn can be an issue and if one model gets significantly better mpg, it can correlate to cheaper operating costs and give you an advantage. At the time I was involved, chevy trucks weren't any more efficient than the Fords. However, I would think now with the V8's, GM probably already has an upperhand in efficiency. Another 10% with the hybrid system could be significant. My Tahoe was rated 1-2mpg higher than the Expedition was when we were shopping. Add another 1.5mpg and you've got a couple thousand dollars savings over a 100k miles service life. Significant when you've got 2000 trucks!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    I think Chevy has always had a slight edge in MPG over Ford. Where I work the big companies only buy diesels. They keep them for 3 years and send them out. If you get a Truck from Alaska with only a few miles it may be misleading. The last I heard an hour of idle time was the equivalent of 35-45 miles of driving. Many vehicles are started at 6 am and shut off at 7 pm. May never move from the power rail. It is easy to calculate. 400-500k miles equivalency is common. Fuel consumption is not a big issue in the oil fields, wonder why?
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    Most trucks now have hour meters so it's easy to figure out on the resale side. Hybrid GM truck won't save anything over a normal gasser if idling is all it's doing. Although the built-in generator could be useful if you normally haul around a gen set anyway.
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