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The Future of Hybrid Technology

nolanola Posts: 1
edited March 8 in Toyota
While the idea to save fuel & the environment is noble, the current approach methods are too complicated, expensive, impractical... I'm of the "KISS" philosophy myself & the current efforts in this regard don't make it... It would seem the only viable alternative at the moment is hydogen power, but we still have to find a way to make this gas cheap to produce... Given the way things are developing in the Middle East, it would seem prudent to find a way to do this soon...
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Comments

  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    but that is by no means certain and it is not likely to be soon. Hydrogen requires more energy to produce from non combustible sources than is released in hydrogen combustion therefore it is less an alternative to petroleum than an alternative way to use it, unless, of course, we intend to resume deployment of nuclear power plants.

    Decades ago many thought that we would "find a way" to economically increase battery energy density to a point that electric vehicles would become a replacement for petroleum powered vehicles. In 1972, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) published an article predicting a breakthrough in battery technology by 1980; that EVs would be commonplace by 1985 and that perhaps ALL vehicles would be electric by 2000. Of course that was a "pipe dream" and battery improvements in those 32 years have been incremental, not revolutionary. The pursuit of the EV can now be viewed as the alchemy of the 20th century.

    Will the "hydrogen economy" fare better? perhaps, or perhaps not. In any case we should not count on it without a plan for achievement. Wishing for a miracle is not a good project plan.
  • Full hybrid like HSD Prius are not complicated mechanically. HSD took out alternator, starter, transmission, clutch, torque converter, radiator, and more... If you look at Prius owner's maintenance guide, you will only find oil change, coolant change, and tire rotation until somewhere like 120,000 miles. Then you replace a spark plug. HSD really simplify traditional automobile to Keep It Simple, Stupid. =D

    Dennis
  • "The pursuit of the EV can now be viewed as the alchemy of the 20th century"

    EV could soon be a reality with current battery technology. The breakthrough has to come from electric motor. The breakthrough that I am talking about is the Minato Over Unity motor. You can read and view videos about Minato motor here. http://www.japan.com/technology/index.php

    Dennis
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    and no advancement in motor technology will make a substantial difference in EV success since electric drives are and have long been better than 90% efficient. The most exotic (and costly) batteries have energy and power densities that are orders of magnitude less than gasoline. Differences in conversion and drive efficiencies cannot overcome that.
  • Well, how about an electric motor that uses almost no electricity. Minato also demonstrated to have output greater than input; thus over unity. Minato taps into the power of magnetism. If a magnet is going to loose magnetism over 1,000 years, why not put a good use of it. Let's say, even if Minato's magnet looses it's magnetism faster, say within 100 years or even 10 years, this is still applicable. This can be thought of as a breakthrough in battery since the power is stored as magnetism rather than chemically.

    More info at: http://www.japaninc.net/article.php?articleID=1302&page=1

    Dennis
  • "prepetual motion"

    That's what I said, when I heard about it the first time. =D Read the article and watch those videos and come back and give me a response. BTW, he has two US patents. 5594289 and 4751486.

    "I'm sure this will be as impressive as your illumination of how horsepower is not power."

    When did I say horsepower is not power? Stop putting words into my mouth. You are the one who said, a transmission does not multiply horsepower, it only change torque. LOL

    Dennis
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    a potentially serious discussion that degenerates to one not worthy of response in less than 10 posts. Is that a record?
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    Since investors are salivating, i strongly suggest you invest in the system as well.

    "You are the one who said, a transmission does not multiply horsepower, it only change torque. LOL"

    You mean, i reiterated that energy cannot be created or destroyed? I can't imagine why i would say that.

    dave
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    They claim to be able to generate more electricity than is used to run the generator; fine. What I want to see is for them to connect the output of the generator to it's input and let it run without any electrical input coming in. It should produce a surplus. Connect it up and run it for a week and I will believe it - if it is done under scientific conditions.

    That a motor might be more efficient is OK; to claim it generates more energy than it uses is indeed "perpetual motion".
  • "That a motor might be more efficient is OK; to claim it generates more energy than it uses is indeed "perpetual motion".

    I can't wait to get my hands on on of Minato's fans. Overunity theory and proofs are there. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5307/Principles.htm
    Minato motor will be the first mass produced overunity motor, I believe. Another question is, if Minato achieve output greater than input, how long will the magnets last?

    Also, that 7 watts car AC with generator built-in is amazing. If you see the video, I think they are reading volt and amp in reverse order. I hope this one does not turn out like other hoaxes. Since J@pan.inc magazine covered the story in the front page, I doubt that it is a hoax.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    If this principle worked, every power utility in the world would be using it. Heck, every house would have one and there would be no need for power utilities - every house could produce it's own energy.

    Not to mention electric automobiles...

    Sorry, something doesn't seem right here. The motor may be more efficient, but not to the point where it generates more output than input.
  • Even if it works, how long will the magnets last their magnetism? It takes energy to make magnets so, it is not free energy unless we use magnets dug up from earth. The way I see is as an electric motor with built-in power in a compact unit. The energy storage is within the motor! You'll only need a small battery to jump start the overunity motor.

    Dennis
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    that P.T. Barnum once made a comment that is appropos to this discussion.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Yes, magnets the perpetual motion source of the naive!

    Yes perpetual motion. Like the guy who had a Prius and said it never used the battery becuase it was always charging from MG1.
    However, he forgot that the ICE was actually supplying the power and substaining energy conversion losses.

    Or one other guy, the Atkinsin - Otto ICE guy, who thought that a bigger battery in the Prius would make the MG2 faster and more powerful. Yes perpetual motion at its best.

    You just got to admire the right-side brain people that try to think like and engineer.

    How about a geothermal motor
    or a JetStream pressure density motor or a solar motor that would run during the night.

    Besides friction, energy conversion losses and entrophy there is a "free lunch"

    Wait a minute CD (Coefficient of drag) is the main factor that causes friction and mileage loss, some CDs are as low as .24 to .26 . What if you could get CD to 0.00 or even a negative number. How about a quatum space shift to a parallel universe/ Wait maybe that was a Star Trek episode.

    Magnetic Motors with no friction or conversion loss, Perpetual motion motors.

    Remember ( if you are old enough)the perpetual motion signs in stores use to display advertising in the late 50s and early 60s. They had a permanent magnet and it wnet through a solenod. The cruent would swith on the solenoid just as the permanemt magnet reach the lip of the solenoid, the kinectic energy was enough to pass through the solinoid where it was repelled., then would switch -off and such the magenet back. The display would go fo weks on a single AA battery. Except for friction and energy conversion losses it was a perpetual motion, er I mean a permanent magnet motor machine.

    Perpetual motion, just enough energy to overcome friciton and energy conversion losses.

    YMMV ( Your Magnets May Vary)

    MidCow

    P.s- I s it true that the Hybrids are cuasing the EPA to revise their EPA mileage test?

    P.S.S. If the Prius is rated at 60/51 and the RX400h is rated at 31/36 which is telling the truth and which is lying ,both use HSD.

    P,S,S. - Since the HSD system can only go forward; reverse is electric only. How will towing work on a HSD hybrid when you have to back up nd the hybrid battery is low ??
  • "Like the guy who had a Prius and said it never used the battery becuase it was always charging from MG1."

    John's point was that battery got rarely used. He did not say "never". If that is true, why would you need the battery?

    It seems that your favorite way of bashing people is to label them as perpetual motion. All of us are aware of perpetual motion machine and can recognize as well as you are. You seem to think you are better at it than others. By labeling a new technology as perpetual motion, you are ignoring possibility of learning how it actually works. This spells ignorant. The only way to learn new things is to, well, learn new things. Ignoring or dismissing will not do.

    Yes, there are losses in conversion. If there are more to gain than from little loss from conversion, there is overall gain. A simple example is in the transmission. Which would you accelerate from a stop, 1st or 5th gear? Converting torque to RPM increases power delivery depending on the situation. If you label this as a perpetual motion, you are just an ignorant.

    "If the Prius is rated at 60/51 and the RX400h is rated at 31/36 which is telling the truth and which is lying ,both use HSD."

    You are terribly confused. RX400h is estimated at 36/31, city/highway. And it is not EPA numbers as the final production model isn't even out yet.

    "Since the HSD system can only go forward; reverse is electric only. How will towing work on a HSD hybrid when you have to back up nd the hybrid battery is low ??"

    Simply start the engine. ICE starts spinning MG1 and directly power the 50KW MG2.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    I read the sites carefully, and I repeat my statement. Show me the scientific study under controlled conditions that demonstrates more output energy than was input.

    Your example is invalid - the automatic or manual transmission is not producing more energy than is being input. It is changing the gear ratios. The articles listed in the URLs were not scientific and made claims that need to be proven. Perhaps it is just the journalist, but that is not what the article implied.
  • "Show me the scientific study under controlled conditions that demonstrates more output energy than was input."

    I am with you as I am dying to find more testing on one of 40,000 Minato fans that will be selling in Japan in a few months. They are suppose to use only 20% of electricity compare to the current Mitsubshi model. Since electric motors are already 90+% efficient already, this will only mean Minato fans are over unity. One thing I want to know is how long those magnets in his fan will last since, most of the work are done by those magents.

    "Your example is invalid "

    That example was given in response to HSD converting electricity to deliver more thrust to the wheel.

    "The articles listed in the URLs were not scientific and made claims that need to be proven."

    Did you see the videos? You'll need to create a free account but it is so worth it. Also don't miss "how it works" column. http://www.japaninc.net/article.php?articleID=1303

    image.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    >>That example was given in response to HSD converting electricity to deliver more thrust to the wheel.<<

    Are you claiming that the HSD is producing more energy than it uses?

    Look, I would have to see a controlled scientific study to consider it. Just because it moves a fan blade more efficiently doesn't mean it puts out more energy than it uses.

    Thanks for the link, however I'd already seen it. I understand the concept, but would need severe proofs before accepting something that perports to be capable of generating more energy than it uses.

    I'm perfectly willing to accept that it is more efficient than a standard motor.
  • "Are you claiming that the HSD is producing more energy than it uses?"

    No, no. Don't even go there. :-P I was responding to Midnightcowboy's energy loss MG1 generating electricity. If you would go back and read the whole paragraph, that might clarify up some more.

    "Just because it moves a fan blade more efficiently doesn't mean it puts out more energy than it uses."

    Well, say, Mitsubishi fan uses 25KW with 90% efficiency. 100% efficient fan would only need 22.5KW to do the same job. Minato is claiming that his fan will only need 20% or just 5KW of the electricity to accomplish the same output. This means, there are more output than input. I'll take this news just as a possible breakthrough until further studies are done.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    "Well, say, Mitsubishi fan uses 25KW with 90% efficiency. 100% efficient fan would only need 22.5KW to do the same job. Minato is claiming that his fan will only need 20% or just 5KW of the electricity to accomplish the same output. This means, there are more output than input. I'll take this news just as a possible breakthrough until further studies are done."

    No, this means the fan will use less energy and produce more revolutions. That is not the same as producing more output than was put in; it means it is more efficient than a conventional fan.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    I think hybrid cars are doomed now that they make motors that can power themselves.
    This reminds me of the 1960's Vapor carburator claims that make a 1971 Fleetwood get better than 100MPG going about 65MPG.

    All the production notes, studdies, equipment and prototype were suddenly stolen, and the inventor's body was found next to the black helecopters at Hanger 42 in the deserts of Nevada :-)
    Steve
  • The magnets in the motor might loose magnetism very quickly. It takes electricity to produce magnets. In the end, magnet in the motor becomes the battery that stores electricity as magnetism instead of chemically. All this talk is only valid if Minato's invention works. I don't think @Japan magazine would fall for perpetual motion as it is equivalent to Popular Science magazine over here.

    Dennis
  • "That is not the same as producing more output than was put in; it means it is more efficient than a conventional fan."

    Why not? If a 5kw Minato motor is producing the same work as 100% efficient traditional 22.5kw motor, that means Minato motor is 450% efficient. That means overunity.

    Dennis
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    tha someone has a very active imagination.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    It means the motor is 450% more efficient; it still doesn't mean it puts out more than the energy it receives in.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Not exactly the future of hybrids or is it ? - snip - Theory of evolution: hybrid car BY ASHLEY FANTZ To many, it seems an exercise in the obvious: compared with an SUV, a gas-electric hybrid car means less pain at the pumps.
    http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/8814411.htm?1c
  • If 22.5 kw motor is 100% efficient and if there is 100% efficient generator, in theory, you can get back 22.5kw that you put into the motor.

    If a motor is 450% efficient, with 100% efficient generator, the output is 4.5 times the input. It sounds crazy but we will see in a few months when Minato fans are available in Japan.

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    This is right from Honda, EPA & CARB. If you are interested in pollution control and freeing us from the bonds of foriegn oil. Natural gas cars are the future. That includes fuel cells that use natural gas as well to produce energy.
    The Civic GX is also the cleanest internal combustion vehicle ever tested by the federal government as the first and only vehicle certified to the newest Federal Tier II, Bin 2 emission level. Also certified as a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), the Civic GX surpasses these two parallel standards and is the only sedan operating at these near-zero levels, available outside of California.

    The 2003 Civic GX was designed to comply with AT PZEV, (Advanced Technology, Partial Zero Emission Vehicle) criterion established by CARB allowing the Civic GX credits toward the California Zero Emission Vehicle mandate. It is recognized as a PZEV by meeting SULEV standards and maintaining its emissions durability for at least 150,000 miles or 15 Years.
  • #31 of 31 The History of Hybrids by gagrice Jun 19, 2004 (2:50 am)
    This is right from Honda, EPA & CARB. If you are interested in pollution control and freeing us from the bonds of foriegn oil. Natural gas cars are the future.

    Honda is wrong.

    We do not have big nat gas reserves in the States, even Canada and Mexico are not enough to supply us with our current, modest gas needs, much less with the much larger amounts we'l;l need if we have many cng vehicles on the road.

    CNG is NOT for private compact cars, just because you lose half your trunk to the fuel tank. It has Miserable driving range, so forget long trips, and there are not many CNG pumps along our highways.

    CNG cars and trucks DO have many applications, BUT NOT as Private Family cars.

    You can use them in all kinds of City Fleets, taxis, (but remmeber the trunk loss again), Buses, Fedex ups and mail vehicles, Police cars, ambulances, maintenance fleets of utilities,

    that alone is 100,000 's of cars.

    And while we do not have enough nat gas reserves in N America,

    we have HUGE reserves of heavy oil BOTH in Canada (oil sands are currently being intensively developed; Canada has 200 billion barrel reserves if you include the oil sands, onl;y 5 or so if you do not!) and Venezuela (orimulsion). When Oil becomes scarce and expencive, we will develop much more of those. We already are.

    While with Natural gas, you need to import it by ship in expensive LNG form, with even more expensive and unpopular terminals that are sitting ducks for terrorists.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    I will agree that CNG has some problems to overcome. Gas reserves is not one of them. Alaska Arctic has 25 Trillion cubic feet of known reserves. BP has blocked development of the gas because they use it to force the oil out of the ground. They were also a small player in the gas business until recently. The government state & Federal have balked at going across Canada to the midwest for political and supposed security reasons. Our friends in Qatar are sitting on the world's largest known reserve of gas 500+ trillion cubic feet. It is a little more expensive to liquefy and ship than to send through a pipe. We are importing oil that is not as environmentally friendly. I am not sure of the hazards of shipping LNG. I would assume it would dissipate into the air rather than destroy ocean habitat. If it works for buses it will work for cars. If I take a trip that is more than the 200 mile range of the Civic CNG I will drive my Suburban or Lexus anyway. I don't like little cars for long driving trips. Hybrids are an easy fix but a very poor long term solution to the energy and environmental problems. The big hybrids that are due out shortly are not going to be accepted because they are not going to give the mileage gains that people expect. Little tiny hybrids like the Prius and Civic HCH will have an audience for now.
    We were invited to the "Wild Animal Park" for a special promotion last night. It took 1.5 hours to go 20 miles. If the four of us had been in a small car like the Prius, hidden in that sea of SUV's, it would have been unbearable. From where I sit the $2.29 a gallon gas has not even affected the driving public. I would say 75% of the cars out there had one person in them.
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