The Future of Hybrid Technology

john500

I agree that hybrids are not justifiable on a cost basis today and that they are over-marketed as a solution to the worlds problems. However, the Prius weighs close to 1,000 lbs more than the Echo and gets at least 6 mpg more. Clearly, hybrids improve fuel efficiency and are going to be the norm within 5 years, barring some miraculous invention. The biggest problem in the US is that we are all gluttons and manipulated by the media. Since the first gas crisis in 1973, auto makers have been telling the consumers that they make large vehicles because "consumers want large vehicles". That is BS. Consumers want large vehicles partly because of the "large animal dominance trait", but mostly because automakers advertise large vehicles seductively by making the vehicle appeal to a persons sense of self (i.e. I'm this gender, I'm this religion, I'm this political affiliation and I drive this car). If the US government has the balls to tax the hell out of gasoline, consumers will quickly lose their ego fixation to their Hummers and we'll revert to a rational way of commuting while maintaining some entertainment in driving (i,e, you can get 40-50 mpg on a motorcycle and do the quarter mile under 12 seconds). I only hope that the US doesn't use hybrid technology to justify the continuation of 6000 pound commuter vehicles that transport one person.

yerth10

You see, this is the problem
Because Prius is boxy in shape, people think that it is same as Echo, when infact it is 13 inches longer externally and compares nearly with Camry internally because of its hatch and a shorter bonnet.

This is what is hampering the sales. Vehicles should be classified on the basis of passenger/cargo space instead of length.

As for the 6000 lb commuter vehicles, people will keep buying it as long as they can afford. Only if Global Warming hurts people, they will stop. Just like people are giving fast foods for fear of obesity related diseases.

In the 1st 2 month of 2005, big suv sales have declined sharply while hybrids have increased.

railroadjames

The vast majority of critics have given the 2nd Gen. Prius high marks for many things, some of which are....quality,technology,greenology,and simply put, "Synergy". Styling is in the eye of the beholder. Too bad your wife doesn't like the Prius design. I guess a Suburban wins on looks for some.
Back in my earlier days , while selling cars @ a G.M. dealer, one of our running jokes was...when ever a "guy" said the line..."I'll have to go and discuss this with my wife B/4 I can buy the car." We always wanted to retort back with..."While your doing that I'll get a hold of my wife to see if it's O.K. with her that I sell the car to you." Of course we never did but it made for great conversation amongst the sales help.
As for the American public I think you've missed the boat. Hybrids are part of the solution not the problem. The oil crisis (and I do mean crisis) is on the verge of becoming a bigger problem than we 1st imagined. Where it goes is still in doubt. Those of us with hygrids are ready for the worste case scenario. The least case scenario we still save and are "GREENER" for doing so.
Culliganman(free us Prius)

yerth10

In 1973, I guess the Japanese made 3 million vehicles and it shot upto 10 million by 1980. Because they made small vehicles and also the most fuel efficient. So if we have a similar crisis now, will the hybrid vehicle sales shoot up.

In the last 2 weeks, the promise of 2 * 500,000 barrels / day increase from OPEC has been gulped up by the market and still prices are staying at $56 + / barrel. Saudi has just 1.5 million barrel reserve. If it is used up, there will not be any extra. What will happen then ?.

The hybrids which has 500 mile range will be at an advantage. Some people may also convert to plugin which will further extend the range. If a 20 mile plugin costs 10K extra, a 5 mile will cost only 2.5K extra which is quite affordable.

gagrice

As for the American public I think you've missed the boat. Hybrids are part of the solution not the problem.

I think you need to get out a little more. I suggested the Prius to my sister-in-law when she was looking for an economy car last year. All I got was a squenched up face look. They are not even close to being considered good looking by anyone I know, outside of a few on this very small group at Edmund's hybrid forum. Our church has about 900 members and I have never seen a hybrid in our parking lot on a Sunday morning.

Second: I did not say they were part of the oil crisis problem. I may have said they will do very little to help. As long as the automakers treat them as some kind of wonderful remedy, and try to extort huge prices for them, the buying public will not be fooled.

railroadjames

I bought my Prius for just under $21K nicely equipped. That, these days, hardly ranks as a "HUGE" cost factor for a new car so well equipped. Now then...Was I extorted? Hardly. Maybe while I waited 3 months to the day for delivery. Even that was fun as I patiently waited for our new techno car.
In about one more month ask your congragation of 900 what they think of the Prius when gas begins to crowd 3 bucks. See if any might be considering a hybrid car (any of them).
Gary, you can be a narsayer all you want but the FACT remains solid that the 2nd Gen. Prius is a hot car right now. When I say hot I mean "stand in line hot. The demand wouldn't be there if the car were just a flash in the night. I keep hope alive that someone will sway your opinion and you will see the "green" light some day. If not you've always got the Suburban.(by the way...I owned one years ago). Handy truck/stationwagon. My Prius looks dang good to me...both front & back and from the sides too. It's distinctive styling made me feel like a winner as I drove everywhere.
Culliganman(the right car @ the right price)

gfedchak

Automakers treat large SUVs as some kind of wonderful remedy for a whole host of fanciful problems, both psychological and allegedly practical, as well.

Why is it extortion if I'm spending $25,000 on a Prius, but not extortion if I spend $40,000 on a Suburban, especially given the much higher profit margins on trucks and SUVs?

Also, I'm not certain that a church parking lot is the place to look for a Prius. Paul Fussell says in CLASS that members of the creative "X class" "never go to church, except for the odd wedding or funeral. Furthermore, they don't know anyone who does go, and the whole idea would strike them as embarrassing." The way Fussell describes them, these non-churchgoers would be the sort of people likely to find charm in being extorted by a Toyota dealer in order to get 50 mpg, while a regular churchgoer would more likely find charm in being extorted by a Chevy dealer in order to get 12 mpg.

gagrice

Why is it extortion if I'm spending $25,000 on a Prius

The extortion is causing a false shortage to make the car seem popular. Then flaunting it on TV with the likes of Leonardo DeCaprio driving. The challenge for Toyota was making a car that appealed to the over educated in America. Selling a $15k car for $25k is nothing short of brilliant on their part. In 10 years when your Prius is nothing but rust my Suburban will still be giving me good service. I do find it sad that Toyota is not interested in selling to those that find church an important part of their lives. I do see a lot of Camry's in the lot. I guess they let that car slip through to the church masses. Or maybe the Camry is a wise choice in vehicles and good stewardship of their finances.

gfedchak

The extortion re: the SUV is in issuing rebates to make them more popular than they would be if these bribes were not given. Then flaunting them on TV with the likes of cowboys and movie stars and athletes driving. The challenge for GM is making cars and trucks that appeal to the undereducated in America. Selling a 25k SUV for 40k is nothing short of brilliant on their part. In 10 years, when a Suburban is immobilized because of $6/gal. gasoline prices, a Prius will still give people good service. I do find it sad that Chevrolet is not interested in selling to those in the creative classes that find universities and tech campuses an important part of their lives.

stevewa

I paid list for my Prius. In 2002. I didn't have to wait for it. It was the auto show demo car.

I did pay over list for the Escape Hybrid. If I had it to do over I could have avoided so doing, but hey, I got to drive the car for 4 months as a result of paying more...AND I'm getting nearly 30 MPG consistently in the 4WD version.

By the way, I think it's an error to assume the 400h will need premium fuel. Atkinson cycle engines actually prefer regular. Premium burns too slowly.

gagrice

In 10 years, when a Suburban is immobilized because of $6/gal. gasoline prices, a Prius will still give people good service.

Not sure why $6 gas would keep me from driving my Suburban. Maybe you know something I don't know. I would rather pay $6 a gallon for gas, than $5000 for a new battery at 10.5 years, just after the warranty expires. Hybrid owners are in for a lot of big expense when the warranty is gone. Of course that is not a problem for people that make $100k to $200k per year.

larsb

quote gagrice-"The extortion is causing a false shortage to make the car seem popular. Then flaunting it on TV with the likes of Leonardo DeCaprio driving. The challenge for Toyota was making a car that appealed to the over educated in America. Selling a $15k car for $25k is nothing short of brilliant on their part. In 10 years when your Prius is nothing but rust my Suburban will still be giving me good service."-end quote

For the umpteenth time, get it through your head that Toyota did not create any "false shortages" -

they could not get the batteries from their suppliers !!!!!

And Toyota has NEVER EVER EVER used any celebrities in advertising the Prius !!!! The Celebs "knew a great green car" when they saw it, and advertised "their own green-ness" to the world on their OWN, with no Toyota involvement !!

Toyota has NEVER EVER used a paid celebrity in ANY car ad, EVER, in the USA. Maybe in Japan they do that (it's really common to use celebs to advertise everything from whiskey to tampons over there) but they have never done that here !!

And there will be no rusty Priuses in 2015, unless they are totalled in wrecks and end up sitting in your junkyard.

motownusa

One reason GM is in such big trouble is because they did not forsee (or chose not to) the upcoming gasoline shortages. Face it folks, gas prices will no nowhere but up in the future. Now that the Chinese automarket is expanding a lot faster than the U.S. expect super high demand and prices to continue. If GM continues to bet its future on full size gas guzzling trucks and SUVs they will be doomed. You have to give Toyota credit, they are always two steps ahead of the domestics.

yerth10

Internally Prius compares with Camry and with a hybrid powertrain and a host of features, its worth 25K. Infact its base price is only 21K. A person who calls it a 15K vehicle either does not understand the facts or delibately acts like not understanding.

I dont know how he got 10.5 years for battery. A Canadian cab driver has already driven it for 200,000 miles. Especially at 3,400 miles/year, it will come for 58.82 years.

According to autonews.com, the production of Sub, Tahoe, Yukon, Escalade Truck has been suspended as the inventories are piling up. No demand for V8 SUV's. Its the impact of $2/gallon gas.

railroadjames

Like the captain that goes down with the ship, you will defend a (guzzler) Suburban no matter what the gas price.
As to the premium battery in the Prius, the facts don't support your exaggerated claims and the battery has proven for several years to be more than reliable and the general concensus is that replacement will not be as expensive by the end of 8 yrs as is currently priced nor would all the cells have to be replaced,thus reducing costs.
Why you debate the hybrid issue surprises most of us "greenies" especially when you resort to exaggerations that have been defended so many times B/4.
In defense of your Suburban I would offer this...It was a good all around vehicle and still will be EXCEPT for gas consumption. I highly question your 13-14 mpg's especially if you have 4WD & AC on. If you're happy killing 75 bucks @ the watering hole then be my guest only it will be hybrids that will turn the corner and lead the way at least for some time to come.
Culliganman(from the side my Prius almost looks like a sports car)(kinda)

gagrice

And Toyota has NEVER EVER EVER used any celebrities in advertising the Prius !!!! The Celebs "knew a great green car" when they saw it, and advertised "their own green-ness" to the world on their OWN, with no Toyota involvement !!

And for the umpteenth time you are mistaken.

Among the guests who accepted Toyota's invitation to test-drive the Prius were actors Billy Crystal and Ed Begley Jr.; actor and director Hart Bochner, who has appeared in the movies "Die Hard" and "Anywhere But Here"; Carla Shamberg, executive producer of the 2000 movie "Erin Brockovich"; and Perry Lang, director of TV's "Alias" and "ER."

http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0307/31/b
01-232152.htm

Explain why the only hybrid that is successful is the one that Toyota used to plug their "Green-ness"? None of the others are runaway successes.

gagrice

If you're happy killing 75 bucks @ the watering hole then be my guest

I am not any happier about the price of gas than the bulk of Americans. However my Suburban has been paid for 3 years and costs me next to nothing, except the little bit of gas I use. It is always ready to go even after sitting 3 months outside. Can you go off and leave your Prius 3 months and jump in and take off. I don't think so. Every hybrid sold has reliability issues that are posted right here on Edmund's. Some serious some not so serious. The explanation I hear is, GM & Ford are worse. To me someone else's problem with a car is not as important as my own. I will listen to what others have to say about their cars and use that to make my own decision on a vehicle purchase. From what I see the hybrids are still in the testing stages. Only the affluent with money to burn should buy them. Toyota & Honda seem to go along with that notion, as they are pushing high end vehicles on all their recent hybrid entries.

kernick

Hey guys, it's getting a little ridiculous to keep going over a comparision of a Suburban to a Prius. Maybe it would be more practical to compare a Suburban to a Sequoia? Or a Silverado to a Tundra. Or the 4-Runner to a Trailblazer. Geez Toyota and GM sure have a lot of trucks.

The Prius's function is to provide a decent size and nicely equipped car with minimally adequate performance, for basic trasnsportation. The point of saving fuel is mainly to save money, as most of you would agree.

And if the point is to save money, you want to save money overall. So for any hybrid, whether Prius, Highlander, Escape, the question is what is the lowest transportation cost? That's (Purchase Price + maintenance + repairs + gas + insurance + taxes). And we all know what the answer is - a USED car. ;-)

As I've said before in the Honda Accord Hybrid forum, I don't see the point of trying to save $5/week or even $20/week in gas, if you're willing to spend $30K for a vehicle. A 1-year old Taurus can be had for $10K-$11K for instance, or what I was perusing was a late 90's Lincoln Mark VIII in the $7K range. Low taxes and insurance would buy a lot of gas! And the purchase price difference would be invested.

yerth10

Toyota plans to sell 300,000 hybrid vehicles by the end of this year / next year. I dont think it is possible this year as 180,000 Prius + 62,000 SUV's adds upto only 242,000. No idea how many Estimas + Crowns + Hino Trucks they are selling in Japan.

May be next year, they will hit the target if Sienna & Camry comes.

gagrice

That's (Purchase Price + maintenance + repairs + gas + insurance + taxes). And we all know what the answer is - a USED car. ;-)

Quit being so logical, it does not befit the hybrid discussions. :-)

larsb

Nope, I am not mistaken.....and I have certainly not been mistaken "umpteen" times on these boards....:)

This event you reference was a Toyota invitation to "many influential" people in that community, SOME of whom happened to be celebs, to an educational introduction for the newly redesigned Prius.

The "Hollywood Green Crowd" had already, LONG BEFORE 2003, adopted the orignal Prius as their pet car. Some of these people were prior Prius customers. This was an event to promote the "new 2004" remodel of the Prius. No similar marketing show was held for the original Prius when it debuted in the United States...

Toyota was not "creating" this relationship with any celebs - the environmental fabulosity and coolness of the original Prius had already done this. This event was Toyota taking full advantage of a marketing opporunity that had been created OUTSIDE OF TOYOTA a few years ago, with the original Prius.

Quoting the story:

"It was a thank you' to our current customers," Nickerson said of the event, held earlier this month. "The purpose also was to build on the enthusiasm that they have had for the Prius."

And for those short of memory, the original Prius, although a fantastic and evolutionary car, had some shortcomings (smallish, style challenged, and certainly under-publicized) and was not taking the market by storm. Toyota wanted to make sure the new Prius got the proper introduction as to how much superior this new redesign was.

Once again, I reiterate,

Toyota has NEVER used paid celebs in any Prius advertisement in the USA.

Period, ever.....:)

yerth10

Gary

You remember the story of how a Fox outsmarted the Lion by claiming to be the King of Jungle.

Now the real Lion is coming : RX400h
Hollywood stars would like to buy one to get a Green vehicle which also has a Blue (cool) ride.

gagrice

Toyota has NEVER used paid celebs in any Prius advertisement in the USA.

Toyota did not need to pay them it was the being different aspect that attracted the celebs. Just like Ashton Kutcher, another fine young environmentalist, in his new vehicle. I wonder how many of these he will sell just by having one.

http://dumbcelebs.com/index.php?m=200411

larsb

OK Gary, let me assume the basis of your argument. Is this what you contend:

"Any person who buys a Prius because a celeb owns one is a bad thing."

Is that what your are saying? If that is your contention, please tell me "in what way" is it bad?

Even if their reason for purchase is idiotic and non-sensical, here is the result:

1. A cleaner car on the road, benefitting ALL of us.
2. Less fuel used, benefitting ALL of us.
3. More profit for Toyota, who can then put this money into developing even more efficient Hybrids in the future, again benefitting ALL of us.
4. One more person who realizes the obvious benefits of Hybrids, and probably convinces a friend or two, putting more Hybrids on the road, again (broken record) benefitting ALL of us.

So other than the buyer who chooses the car for ONLY that reason being a fool, how is anyone harmed, and how is it not a PLUS for us all?

kernick

Rebuttal of your points:
1) I believe there are other cars on the road that are as clean or cleaner than hybrids. And if you are considering CO2 as being "bad" you haven't convinced me that the consequences are bad - change and different is not bad in my book.

2) You're technically right, but strategically it makes little difference in the big scheme of things.

3) I think it rather naieve to think that Toyota is some "saint" of industry.

4) Again I don't see the benefit when energy consumption will continue to increase, and hybrids will simply add a year or 2 to the day when contemporary fossil fuels are depleted. What kind of victory is it if oil/gas/coal runs out in the year 2100 or 2105?

gagrice

"Any person who buys a Prius because a celeb owns one is a bad thing."

Absolutely not. I am just refuting your assertion that the Prius sells on it's own merit and has nothing to do with the celebrity factor surrounding the car. And my question was IF it is not the celeb appeal that sells the Prius why doesn't the superior, less expensive HCH sell as well?

misterme

Gary,
You asked why the HCH doesn't sell as well.
I wish everyone in the new car market would do more research on today's hybrid vehicles, and find great discussions like here at Edmunds.

Almost everyone I talk to about it still has the misconception of "The plug" and think it has limited range before re charging, or carrying a bank of lead-acid batteries.
This mistaken idea is most un-appealing.

I guess the Prius folks get the same so it wouldn't be HCH specific, but does make a point.

I'm not saying everyone would flock to hybrids and they would sell like wild fire, but the vast majority has no clue.

larsb

King Leonardo is responsible for:

???how many???

of the 340,000 hybrids Toyota has sold to date ?

50? 100? Certainly not more than 1000, can we agree on that point?

OK let's say we have 1000 people in the world who are ignorant enough to buy a car just because Leonardo did.

That's .0029411 percent of the total sales number.

Have you seen the list of industry awards the Prius has won over the past couple of years? It has PLENTY of Merits that have nothing to do with Sandra Bullock, thanks very much....:)

Secondly: Who says the HCH is superior and less expensive? Those two cars are really not competing. But here are some possible reasons:

1. Toyota is the second largest car maker in the world - more dealerships than Honda, more advertising budget, etc.
2. The Prius was latched onto by techies and greenies as a "new type of car" - designed from the ground up to be a Hybrid, while the Civic Hybrid is basically a regular civic with a smaller engine and a small electric assist - nothing world shattering.
3. There is no "look at me" phenomenon with the HCH as with the Prius. Cars are "emotional" statements too - car owners sometimes justifiably want people to recognize them and see them as someone different and someone who cares (perhaps more than you do) about driving clean.
4. Toyota from Day One has been more serious about building and marketing hybrids than Honda.
5. Base price of Prius is $21,440. Base of HCH is $20,050. Only $1390 difference, so it's not very much less expensive than the Prius.
6. Prius is a midsize, while HCH is a compact. I say you get far more "bang for the buck" with a Prius.
7. Prius has won MANY MANY awards that the HCH has not, so that in itself puts it more into the public's focus.

railroadjames

HCH is not a Prius nor visa versa. The fact that celebs are endorsing any of the hybrids is simply a novelty to us hybrid owners.
One more time, for you Gary, You say I'm affluent for buying a Prius. I say I'm an average joe willing to improve my usage of fossil fuels and thrifty by doing so.
I also think that had you the oppertunity to actually drive a Prius for, say a few weeks, you might vary your opinion of this dynamic car. Then again if you never did come over to the "GREEN" side..so what. Toyota has enough support from more of us. You're one. WE ARE MANY.
Remember this. If the unthinkable ever happens...GAS RATIONING...GAS HOGS are in deep doo doo. Don't snicker. It could happen. Today a refinery just had a major fire/explosion and it will definitly effect production of it's primary product...GASOLINE. USA wastes approximatly 5-7 million gallons of fuel a day in rush hour traffic jambs. I know. I've seen it too often in Chicago while I'm in electric mode using NO GAS 70% of the time. Gas Hogs are on the endangered species for obvious reasons don't ya know.
Culliganman(taps are playing for Gas Hogs)

gfedchak

I think railroadjames is onto something when he says, "You're one. WE ARE MANY."

There are two kinds of people: those who create reality - reality as we know it - and those who live in the reality that others create.

Those who are early adopters of hybrid automobile technology are creating the future reality of those who are more passive, more resistant, less imaginative, or more fearful.

Either help create reality - future reality - or else get out of the way. Standing in the middle of the road and blocking traffic while crying, "Waaa! Waaa! I don't like what's happening to my cloistered automotive universe," is now just an annoyingly impotent gesture, albeit an endearingly funny one.

misterme

Similarly,
I knew when I bought my HCH last Feb '04 that gas prices would soon exceed $2.00/gallon and here we are today.

If not for this fact I would have no doubt bought something much larger.

kernick

you: "You're one. WE ARE MANY."

me: you guys have been watching too much Star Trek. The Borg collective? ;-)

you: There are two kinds of people:

me: "Those with bullets, and those that dig." - The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

you: Those who are early adopters of hybrid automobile technology are creating the future reality.

me: didn't Marlon Brando say something like that in Apocalypse Now?

you: Either help create reality - future reality - or else get out of the way. Standing in the middle of the road and blocking traffic while crying, "Waaa! Waaa!

me: now I know that's from the first Terminator movie!

Let me quote; from Alan Parsons - I Robot "...the rise of the machine and the decline of man, which paradoxically coincided with his discovery of the wheel, and a warning that his brief dominance of this planet will probably end, because man tried to create robot in his own image."

kernick

Since most organizations such as IIHS, Consumer reports, and insurance companies agree larger vehicles are safer, you and your passengers increase the risk to your lives for about a $1,000/year in gas?
Or tell us what that price is? My point is - are you sure you have your priorities straight? making mpg such a priority?

gagrice

"You're one. WE ARE MANY."

It's not easy being a voice of reason and logic, especially on a forum overloaded with zealots. I do think you would all die of boredom if I left, so I will continue to challenge your minds. I was a pioneer for better mileage before many of you were born. I had an ugly 1952 Studebaker V8 that consistently got 21 mpg, unheard of with Big 3 vehicles. I bought a new VW bug in 1967 because my 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser was a gas guzzling piece of junk. I traded that for a new Datsun PU truck in 1970. Then bought my wife a new 1973 Subaru coupe. I did not give up the quest for efficiency until 1988. I started buying Chevy 3/4 ton trucks. My 1988 & 1990 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4s both sold after two years for just what I paid for them by taking them back to Alaska. I bought a new 1992 Toyota PU 4X4 4 banger that got worse mileage than my full size Chevys. I switched back in 1993 to Chevy trucks and have not bought myself a Japanese vehicle since. You, the majority on this very obscure Hybrid forum can preach the gospel of hybrid all you want. It is not getting through to mainstream America. Hybrids are not worth the Premium! American car buyers as a whole are not suckers for every new car that comes along. Unless they see results they will not buy. The results most seen in the media reports are lower mileage than EPA estimates. All the awards in the world can be shot down with a negative article. The only hybrids that get what they are estimated to get are the Insight & HCH, that is why I consider them superior to the Prius. If the battery goes out in the Prius your dead, not so in the IMA hybrid. Software seems real buggy in the Prius many reports of cars just stopping for no reason. Give Toyota a few more years, maybe they will get it right.

Sylvia

time to move on. Thanks!

jprice

Selling a $15k car for $25k is nothing short of brilliant on their part

Gosh - I thought that one of your primary arguments was that the Prius wouldn't last because Toyota was losing money on every one...

jprice SoCal '05 Silver, #1, 3000 miles, [non-permissible content removed]. mileage 46.5MPG

gagrice

your primary arguments was that the Prius wouldn't last because Toyota was losing money on every one

I didn't say anything about what it cost to build. I said that it was only worth $15k. That is a comparison to other cars on the market. The mileage you are getting will come at a high cost of maintenance when the warranty is no longer in affect. Look back in the hybrid posts. Already Prius owners are experiencing big repair bills on cars that are less than 3 years old. Hopefully your experience will be better, I'm skeptical.

jprice

I didn't say anything about what it cost to build. I said that it was only worth $15k.

My recollection is that you have been claiming that it was a loss leader for Toyota (see quotes below).

MSG 357, The Future of Hybrid Vehicles:
"I believe they are losing money on the Prius otherwise why the sudden loss after so many years of excessive profits?"

MSG 712, Mar. 05, The Future of Hybrid Vehicles:
"Toyota is the only one saying it is profitable when they know they are lying through their teeth."

As to the second point - IMHO, the Prius is more worth its price than, say (since it's a frequent target in this Forum) a Hummer, and I don't base that on the relative MPG. The Hummer is a derivative of a very competent military vehicle - the super-successor to the Jeep, if you will. If I was going to pay $60k for that car (I think that's about the price range for an H2), I'd wouldn't want it to come with a radio - I'd want a live symphony orchestra.

You keep saying that the Prius is bought by people with $100k incomes. Then what does it take to buy a Lexus? Or a Jaguar? Or the typical SUV?

jprice SoCal '05 Silver, #1, 3000 miles, [non-permissible content removed]. mileage 46.5MPG

PF_Flyer

Let's get away from trying to "prove" something by pulling quotes and responding point by point. There's a bit too much you said... going on. As Sylvia noted, the horse is dead.

railroadjames

At first I wanted to agree with you(pf) (don't rock the "hosts" around here) but then again I thought, Hay! This is a forum of people collectively voiceing their own opinions. Some with reasonable merit and some with radical sentiments. Thru it all the bottom line seems clear....A good deal of the time the underlying point seems to be...YOU'RE EITHER PRO or CON HYBRIDS.
Frustrating as it seems to be, I've decided to take some of the hosts advise...I'm not going to change (Gagrice's) stand on hybrids or anyone else for that matter so...I'm going to continue giving "real life" testimonials about my hybrid Prius and share info with those that want to broaden their hybrid horizons.
LAST POINT..Gas prices seem to have stablized (for the moment) and I do hope that we can all breath a bit easier. Take a moment to think about this....There is a problem in the U.S. that we seem to ignore. We knew more than 30 yrs ago about our dependancy on foreign oil. In those 30 yrs have we really rectified the situation or, have we compounded it by consuming bigger, thirstier, vehicles and ignored "MASS TRANSPORTATION?" Are we learning from our past or are we doomed to repeat its' mistakes all over?
Railroadjames(you've gotta friend)(love that song!)(who sang it?)

kernick

We knew more than 30 yrs ago about our dependancy on foreign oil. In those 30 yrs have we really rectified the situation or, have we compounded it by consuming bigger, thirstier, vehicles and ignored "MASS TRANSPORTATION?"

me: I think the lesson many of us learned from the oil crises of the 70's was the "Crying Wolf" lesson. When "experts" say there's an immediate crisis and we all need to cutback, and then 10 or 20 years later there's a glut of oil, the experts lose credibility.

And they should lose credibility. It is unfortunate that people enter into these public information situations with a bias or prejudice. I want to hear from the experts that there is X amount of known recoverable oil, but there may be more found and technology will probably allow greater recovery from old wells. I begin to doubt people when they make a statement like there's X amount of oil, we're polluting the world, and we all need to drive hybrids.

Scientists should state the facts and not let their personal views and lifestyle enter into a desire to set policies and public perceptions. What happened in the 70's was a bunch of shoddy scientific research combined with a bunch of people seeing an opportunity to change people's lifestyles. Well it hasn't worked well and the majority of the people in the U.S. consume more energy per capita than ever before.

you: Are we learning from our past or are we doomed to repeat its' mistakes all over?

me: watching the news over the years I feel that mostly every generation makes the same mistakes over and over. If people learned from mistakes, there would be no drunk drivers today. Individuals may learn from their mistakes, but mankind is evolving very slowly. Old mistakes are new mistakes to new individuals. :-(

john500

James Taylor.

I don't classify myself as Pro or Con-hybrid. I simply believe that hybrids are the inevitable logical decision in the short-term to mitigate the potential for environmental damage. When I am in the car market again in a few years, I hope that hybrids are priced reasonably low so I can almost justify getting one on a cost-basis. There are clear cost and technological limitations to hydrogen and solar vehicles. I've even heard the heavy hydrogen advocates (i.e. those getting Federal funding for research) propose methanol as a fuel. I must admit that it sounds attractive, but can you imagine the damage that a poisonous, odorless, fully water-miscible chemical can do to the water supply via leakage if MTBE was shut down (which has a maximum water solubility of 0.5 wt %).

stevewa

"Since most organizations such as IIHS, Consumer reports, and insurance companies agree larger vehicles are safer, you and your passengers increase the risk to your lives for about a $1,000/year in gas?"

That's not exactly true. Larger cars are safer than smaller cars, but large SUVs are not necessarily safer than large cars. Yet the marketing machine wants to sell you a top-heavy rollover-machine because it has a better markup than that sedan over there.

Besides, if I can't breathe the air it doesn't really matter how "safe" my car is.

electrictroy

Whether we run of oil in 2010, or 2200, it's inevitable that we will. The oil buried in the earth is a "savings account" from the last several million years of solar energy (dead plants). Eventually that solar energy will be spent, the account will be empty, and there will be no oil.

So the experts weren't wrong. They just guessed wrong on the date. Whether it's 2010, or 2200, it will eventually happen.

troy

yerth10

I was reading about this article on Hybrid Lighting System.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7287168/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7287168/page/2/

I am wondering whether the hybrid vehicles are using fluorescent bulbs or the conventional incandescent bulbs. The hybrid systems can be applied to many things to save energy.

yerth10

Article in Financial Times says
Toyota confirms that sales of Sequoia is down by 11%, while Highlander increased by 17%.

It also says that some people are trading in Sequoia for smaller SUV's.


So customers are clearly sending the message that fuel prices are biting them. Ideally they should trade in Sequoia for HH.

yerth10

I wont be surprised if HH sells for $41K as it cousin RX400h goes for $48K. Those people with money will simply buy.

For an average guy (who can spend <20K), he has to wait for another 6-7 months to see the price range of Civic-2006. If it comes in LX 5-Door model and costs 18K, thats the Hybrid Vehicle to buy.

gagrice

I watched a TV news reporter at the NY auto show. He was jumping from one car to another making comments on this one and that one. He came to a new GM SUV and his comment is how most Americans view hybrids. "This new GM SUV uses hybrid, whatever that is" He was not an automotive writer just another reporter. He did not have a clue of what a hybrid car is. Mainstream media are not cognizant of hybrids, how would 99% of Americans realize they even exist? This reporter spent most of the segment in a new $440K Porsche, saying "eat your heart out Jerry Seinfeld".

larsb

quote gagrice-"He did not have a clue of what a hybrid car is. Mainstream media are not cognizant of hybrids, how would 99% of Americans realize they even exist?"-end quote

Gary, it is not possible to correctly exrapolate from one ignorant reporter that because of his ignorance "mainstream media" are not aware of hybrids.

I Google "hybrids" and "hybrid" every day on Google News, and there are usually 10-50 articles PER DAY on Hybrid cars.

I took a informal poll in my office this morning, which features salaries from $20K a year to $105K, and 16 out of 23 had heard of "hybrid cars."

Does that prove that 69% of American has heard of hyrbid cars?

No, and the comparison of my little poll to your statement shows how silly it is to attempt to use ONE DUMB REPORTER as a gauge for the entirety of mainstream media, just as it is silly to try and use one little office to gauge America !!

gagrice

Does that prove that 69% of American has heard of hyrbid cars?

I don't know how many people know about hybrids. What they are and why they exist. I do know that I was more informed about the HAH that I went to look at than the salesman that showed us the car. All I know about the HAH and hybrids I have learned from the internet and more specifically This Forum. I used the 99% figure because I don't believe that 99% of the population spend as much time on the Internet as you and I do.

You know what is interesting about the reporter I referenced? He was a Hollywood reporter. I would have expected him to at least be familiar with those in Hollywood that are advocates of the Prius.