Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





The Future of Hybrid Technology

1192022242560

Comments

  • TROY WROTE: Another way to show weight isn't a problem is to take an electric car (e.g. Rav4-EV), subtract half the batteries and add the 39hp TDI engine..... Now you have a Rav4 serial hybrid.

     

    .

      

    LARS WROTE: That is not a serial hybrid, it's an EV.

     

    .

     

    Lars... where do I start? (rolls eyes) I explained in *clear english* that I was discussing a modified Rav4 EV to act like a Rav4 Serial Hybrid.

     

    troy
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,684
    I was discussing a modified Rav4 EV to act like a Rav4 Serial Hybrid.

     

    Honda makes some dandy little gen sets that could be used to keep the batteries charged up on longer trips.

     

    You can get an electric start 7000 watt unit for under 2 grand. It will run all day on 6 gallons of gas.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Can you give me an example of a NiMH pack that has gone down in price? Every time I buy a new laptop battery they are more expensive.

     

    I don’t know about your laptop batteries but mine uses Li-ion batteries and they are expensive. Not so with NiMH. They are actually quite cheap and are much cheaper now than they used to be. I have a bunch of those at home.

     

    That said, how do you come up with replacement cost of battery packs?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Aren't the batteries modular, meaning you can replace individually failed battery "packs" without replacing all of them?

     

    I know that as of a few months ago, Toyota was boasting as "never having replaced a Prius battery pack."
  • stevewastevewa Posts: 203
    It's true that Toyota has a modular battery with multiple packs that can in theory be serviced individually. My best guess is that at some point they will develop an exchange program where you pay a set amount and receive a reconditioned battery pack, then they take your old one and replace however many modules have expired. The biggest cost has got to be the labor to open up the metal can and actually test each module...
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,684
    That said, how do you come up with replacement cost of battery packs?

     

    If you look at the price and parts sheet for the Prius you will see that the battery assembly is $4920 while each module is $259 each. That would be the least of my worries with a hybrid.

     

    My first two laptops used Nicad, The next one was NiMH while the last two are Li-ion.

     

    http://ozgrl.com/images/rearbo1.gif
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    So, $15K was an exaggeration I believe. Still, do you have a link to price/parts sheet for Prius?
  • Why worry? Hybird batteries are barely used. They'll last longer than the engine!

     

    troy
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    Its 7 years since the 1st hybrids came into market

    and so far, so there is no problem with those batteries even after a vehicle travelling for 200,000 miles.

     

    However for another 7 years, this topic about batteries will continue, since that is the only point where the critics can talk about.

     

    But definitely the battery tech has improved as the Prius-II uses only 28 modules compared to 38 in Prius-I and yet it gives the same amount of power.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,684
    So, $15K was an exaggeration I believe. Still, do you have a link to price/parts sheet for Prius?

     

    No exaggeration, these look like Toyota parts and price sheets to me

     

    For the Prius, there are $15,000 worth of parts related to the hybrid system alone:

      

    $5,153.24 for the hybrid electric motor/generator

    $4,920.39 for replacement battery

    $668 for "relay assy, hybrid vehicle"

    $1,250 for "computer, battery

    $970 for "computer, hybrid control"

      

    Plus many more. Check out the parts price sheets for the Prius:

    http://ozgrl.com/images/engine9.gif

    http://ozgrl.com/images/rearbo1.gif

    http://ozgrl.com/images/interi7.gif

      

    Not to mention the labor costs for any hybrid-related diagnosis and repair.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    For the Prius, there are $15,000 worth of parts related to the hybrid system alone

     

    So now we have moved on from batteries to "hybrid system", which includes the entire drive train. This is why I called it an exaggeration in the first place.

     

    How much do you think drivetrain in a $30K car costs to replace in its entirety?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,684
    How much do you think drivetrain in a $30K car costs to replace in its entirety?

     

    $15,000 less than the same car that is a hybrid?
  • stevewastevewa Posts: 203
    Well, a typical automatic transmission costs at least $3K, and that's included in the price of the "electric motor generator" because it's all one assembly. All modern autos computer systems are in the $1K+ price range.

     

    So I'd say there is a small incremental expense but nowhere near the $15K you're quoting.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,684
    nowhere near the $15K you're quoting.

     

    That was directly off of the Toyota price sheets. It is not just a $4k battery & a $5k motor assembly. Much more than an ICE only vehicle.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    No link, just a total sales number:

     

    US hybrid sales double in January

    AWKnowledge (subscription), UK - 1 hour ago

    By AWKnowledge staff writer (SN).

     

    Hybrid sales in the US in January nearly doubled year-on-year, soaring 98.8% to 8,455 units.

     

    Here is a different link to the same data:

     

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/02/january_2005_hy.html
  • I'm an electrical engineer. I know what's inside these hybrids. There is NO way that a battery + a motor + DC/DC converter = $15,000. Absolutely not.

     

    $4000 tops (about $1000 per system + labor).

     

    If you expect me or anyone else to except "$15,000" you better PROVE it (a system-by-system breakdown), or keep silent.

     

    troy
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    So if you want to discuss batteries - see The Great Battery Debate and post there.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,684
    If you expect me or anyone else to except "$15,000" you better PROVE it (a system-by-system breakdown), or keep silent.

     

    I looked at the price sheets from Toyota that were posted. They looked legitimate to me. Do you think someone would go to that much trouble to fake Toyota price sheets? Remember the Japanese mark replacement parts up a lot higher than US automakers.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Remember the Japanese mark replacement parts up a lot higher than US automakers.

     

    Only if they are imported, as was the case with my 1988 Corolla GT-S. Unlike the 1988 Corolla sedan, GT-S parts were more expensive since they were imported and not readily available.

     

    What about European makes? Are they cheaper than vehicles made in America?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,684
    What about European makes? Are they cheaper than vehicles made in America?

     

    I don't know, you tell me. This was about someone refuting the prices on the Toyota Prius parts list. I guess they find it hard to believe that a battery pack will cost about 5 grand to replace, or each battery module is $259. I have no problem believing those prices as I have had to deal with repairs on our Lexus. And I can tell you they are not as inexpensive to maintain as my Suburban. One of the reasons I hated my 1978 Honda Accord was the rip-off prices for parts.
This discussion has been closed.