Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





The Future of Hybrid Technology

1323335373860

Comments

  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    So probably a few students and maybe a professor or two, who have an interest in this particular specialty, when they're not studying or teaching.

    Maybe it is some, new unthought of way to make large quantities of inexpensive fuel. I tend to believe that if someone in this group at UNH, had a viable plan from location / irrigation process thru the distribution process, they wouldn't be sitting at UNH. They'd be a multi- multimillionaire, having sold this idea and technology to a large corp. such as Exxon/Mobil.

    And the proof that it was viable would be that Exxon-Mobil would be investing the billions $ to make this happen. Actions speak louder than words.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,788
    "you: because you can't sell diesels in CARB states,

    me: that can be changed with the stroke of a pen. "

    Man, it's obviouis you don't live in California. The Federal Government has no power over CARB; it is determined entirely by California.

    To be fair, with two large metropolitan areas, and with LA in particular having geographic problems (it's a big bowl that traps emissions), there is some reason for the CARB to be more strict than, say, New Mexico or Arizona.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    you: The Federal Government has no power over CARB; it is determined entirely by California.

    me: I didn't mention anything about the Fed. government. Where did you see that in the post? I'm sure Arnie and the legislature have pens. ;-)

    you: LA in particular having geographic problems (it's a big bowl that traps emissions),

    me: I was doing a paper on Logisitcs last year and ran across how the port near LA is the major source of pollution. No restrictions on diesel there either from the cranes, or waiting ships? Anyway diesel cars are much cleaner than years ago, and the new diesel fuel will certainly help.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,788
    "you: The Federal Government has no power over CARB; it is determined entirely by California.

    me: I didn't mention anything about the Fed. government. Where did you see that in the post? I'm sure Arnie and the legislature have pens. ;-)

    you: LA in particular having geographic problems (it's a big bowl that traps emissions),

    me: I was doing a paper on Logisitcs last year and ran across how the port near LA is the major source of pollution. No restrictions on diesel there either from the cranes, or waiting ships? Anyway diesel cars are much cleaner than years ago, and the new diesel fuel will certainly help."

    The state will not cut CARB; there are too many environmentalists out here.

    I also saw the figures on the port, but believe me, it is the cars (and industry) that put out the pollution. One problem is that there are so many clunker cars on the road, putting out more pollution. The modern cars are cleaner.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    you: The state will not cut CARB; there are too many environmentalists out here.

    me: I've heard. I was simply stating all that was holding back was someone changing the law. There is no technological or economical hurdle to overcome.

    you: One problem is that there are so many clunker cars on the road, putting out more pollution. The modern cars are cleaner.

    me: I agree. And the problem with our society is that we don't want to address the original problem or law-breakers, so we have to go after the decent people and make them be extra clean, so as not to exacerbate the situation.
    If semis had better pollution control, something was done at the port of LA, and the clunkers were confiscated and crushed, then regular drivers would be allowed to drive modern clean diesels that get the mileage of hybrids.

    I would guess that since there are many illegal aliens in CA, that don't earn much, and are concerned with larger issues of being caught and deported, aren't too concerned whether their vehicle has a catalytic conveter on it?
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    OK - some drift to CARB is fine. However, seems like we are going from that to immigration laws so let's get back on track to the Future of Hybrids.

    Will they dominate the industry in years to come?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,854
    Are the current hybrid offerings and technology something along the line of betamax? And will there be a VHS that comes along and dominates the market?

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? pf_flyer@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    The Prius+ link raises some questions to me:

    1) I would guess modifying the hybrid or changing the sequence and utilization of the batteries and ICE, would void the warranties on those parts?

    2) If there is no affect on battery longevity or other electrical, software, or mechanical systems, why wouldn't the Toyota engineers have done this "+" originally? Or is it cost? I didn't read that far.
  • stevewastevewa Posts: 203
    1. Most certainly this kind of thing will void any warranty on the parts, and probably also void any state or federal emissions warranty, as the hybrid systems are considered emissions equipment.

    2. Car making is an art of compromise. Engineers, marketers, manufacturing specialists, all have to work together to come up with a design that (a) works, (b) can be manufactured, and (c) can be sold at a price point that will attract buyers without bankrupting the company. This leads to decisions that make the final product more palatable (some might call this "bland") to a wide audience. There are exceptions, of course, like the Ford GT which are limited-production cars where the manufacturer is not looking for big sales numbers.

    Some reasons I can think of that would preclude the kind of upgrades proposed in the Prius + design:

    1. cost of additional hardware
    2. added weight, resulting in lower payload capacity
    3. added complexity for the owner/driver, remember Prius is intended to drive/act like a "regular car" as much as possible.
  • Kernick's comments: It is likely that our conversions, and kits we may provide (with our for-profit partners), will void some or all of the hybrid system's warranty. We would expect to provide a secondary warranty, and customers are likely to be people who can afford the risk.
    Toyota and other car companies think there's no market for these cars. That and the warranty Q get to the larger strategic/political issues: what if lots of people started saying, "we want our cars to be better," and we want it from Toyota-- or, perhaps, Toyota Racing Development, which provides aftermarket products for Toyota and has modified Priuses.
    The California Cars Initiative and others (such as a major editorial in the March 7 Newsweek) focus on encouraging automakers to produce these cars for reasons of energy security (reduce use of imported gasoline) and global warming (cut CO2 emissions and move to biofueled hybrids).

    As for Steve's comments:
    1. cost of additional hardware is mainly additional batteries (we estimate Toyota could do it for $3K over current hybrid cost, which would be worth doing at high gasoline prices).
    2. Added weight is about 1 passenger, which has little negative impact on MPG, and in Prius there's room under the hatchback deck.
    3. There need be NO complexity to the owner: drive just like a Prius. Recharging is as simple as what people do with their phones, a 110 plug in garage, and if you forget, you're back to using your efficient gasoline-only hybrid.
    Felix
    P.S. By the way, my original post was removed because it pointed to other URLs, which isn't allowed; those who want to learn more about "gas-optional hybrids (GO-HEVs) and "plug-in hybrids" (PHEVs) can search for those terms or CalCars.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    Most certainly this kind of thing will void any warranty on the parts

    I would think you would want to buy a used Prius with over 100k miles to do your experimenting. It would be good for an autoshop class project.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    How will the Prius compete with the larger Avensis? They come in many configurations and engine choices including 3 diesel engines. Four gas engines, 2dr, 4dr, 5dr & wagons.

    The new 2.2 D-4D Clean Power engine uses the revolutionary Toyota D-CAT system, which renders the high-performance engine the cleanest diesel power unit in the world in terms of combined nitrogen oxides (NOx) and particulate matter (PM) emissions.

    D-CAT features a Diesel Particulate NOx Reduction (DPNR) four-way catalyst, the only system in the world which simultaneously reduces NOx and PM via the combination of a NOx-reduction catalyst and a particulate filter.


    http://www.carpages.co.uk/toyota/toyota-avensis-part-1-02-03-05.asp

    If we had those choices I don't believe you would see the hybrids around for long.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    you: what if lots of people started saying, "we want our cars to be better,"

    me: I think Honda and especially Toyota have listened to a lot of consumers and made better vehicles; but probably not the "better" you mean. Look at all the SUV and truck models they've come out with.
    Now "better" to me means it would have more power, be amphibious, and maybe takeoff and fly like a Harrier.

    you: produce these cars for reasons of energy security (reduce use of imported gasoline)

    me: gasoline usage is dependent on 230M cars in this country, and an evergrowing global fleet. Hybrids will only slow the growth of gasoline usage, not reverse it. Countries which are wealthy enough to drive ICE vehicles, but not wealthy enough to afford hybrids, would surely use it. And if oil isn't converted to gasoline, it could be used in the electric generating plants to charge those Priuses.

    you: Recharging is as simple as what people do with their phones, a 110 plug in garage.

    me: which isn't very feasible, if many people did so. Areas of the country have electricity shortages at manytimes of the year.

    you: global warming (cut CO2 emissions and move to biofueled hybrids).

    me: first you assume that global warming is a negative. Since the Earth is just coming out of an Ice Age, I am all for it. The average temp. of the Earth is only about 60F, a temp. that cause us to use energy to heat our homes.

    you: move to biofueled hybrids).

    me: you do know know that anything "bio" has carbon in it? And if CO2 isn't produced from burning biofuels, what would you like to see the carbon bonded to in the exhaust?
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    If you want to understand where a lot of your air pollution comes from, read this report. Hybrids won't aggravate the problem, but they do not necessarily make it better. Hybrids won't stop energy usage from increasing or pollution or CO2 from going higher, on their own. Our lifestyle is the main issue.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-13-pollution-_x.htm
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    May be if we go to Europe/Africa, we can find an article which says that pollution from USA comes to their cities. No use in blaming others when USA has the maximum pollution per capita.

    When USA moved to Automobile / Airplane based lifestyle, everyone followed, similarly if this country moves to cleaner fuels like Nat-gas, Ethanol, Bio-Diesel, etc, again everyone will follow.
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    www.capstoneturbine.com
    This company is selling a micro turbine which generates 30 KW of power using different type of fuel like Nat-gas, propane, Diesel, Kerosene, etc.

    Is it possible to run the vehicles using this turbine. Similarly is it possible to extract the waste heat from automotive exhaust and feed into an even smaller turbine like 1-2 KW for a hybrid vehicle to feed the battery.
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4513243/

    "aiming to sell 100,000 eco-friendly, gasoline-electric Camrys a year

    Analysts said that Toyota, Japan's largest auto maker, would probably be able to reduce costs by 2006 and sell a hybrid Camry at a price attractive to consumers."

    Hopefully they will introduce a V4 Camry or even ideally a V3 camry with Motor doing the job of 1 Cylinder.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    You're right, USA has proved itself the leader in almost all technologies and the invention of products. No wonder we pollute so much.
    But also, no other country than US have spent so much time and energy trying to curb pollution.

    Our West coast routinely recieves pollution from China drifting across "the pond", and is right on our heels in this regards:

    "Ten most polluted cities in the world, seven can be found in China"
    http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/chinaenv.html

    The U.S. is also assisting Asian countries in their pollution problems:
    http://www.chinacp.com/eng/cpdonors/cp_usaid.html

    "second place in world pollution after the US"
    http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/12/14/2003215052

    I'm not surpised that China signed on to the Kyoto treaty while it does almost nothing to clean its own problems...under Kyoto blessings?

    And some say the U.S. is the bad guy?
    It's always easy & popular to dump on the U.S. but let's look at what else is going on around us.

    The U.S. Army is also getting hybrid vehicles:
    http://www.wisinfo.com/northwestern/news/business/stories/biz_19996232.shtml

    Well, maybe the Army is not doing this in the name of preventing pollution, but if hybrids are good enough for the military it's good enough for me!
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    More than a year ago, I read an article in Popular Science about a Hybrid Armored Vehicle for US Army. It has 6 wheels with motor in each wheel. Seems their fuel costs $ 15 / gallon in the battlefield, since it has to be transported in shielded tankers.

    Fixing motor in a wheel and removing transmission is getting popular and Toyota has 1 such model with 4 motors in 4 wheels.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    We generate a lot of trash, which we do a fairly good controlling via landfills and such. And we certainly generate a lot of CO2.

    But if you want to consider polluted areas, the U.S. is not even close to being near the top. Read up on what 45 years of Soviet rule did to Russia and Eastern Europe. Read up on what the typical Chinese's lifestyle is - maybe recycling (smelting metals) off of disposed circuit boards in a make-shift factory in a village. Go to countries outside of Europe, Japan, Canada, and such, and see what sort of emissions equipment they have on their vehicles.
This discussion has been closed.