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Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars



  • texasestexases Posts: 5,424
    "Obviously it had excess power to spare. "

    Nope, just means your alternator could put out sufficient additional electricity (from using the engine power) to handle these load. Car engines are very powerful. Just 1 horsepower is equal to 748 watts, so you can power a lot of electrical load from an engine. None of this power, however, is 'free'. It all comes directly from burning gasoline. You'd have a perpetual motion machine otherwise (more power out than fuel in). It's like an electrical power plants - they match their output to the load, they're not just sitting there burning coal/gas/whatever.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Right, I know nothing is "free", however if the electrolysis costs 1mpg, and I gain 10mpg from the Hydrogen gas supplementing the gasoline, then in effect I have a 9 mpg gain at what "appears" to be "free" when it's actually just putting to use excess electricity produced by the vehicle alternator.

    I actually work for the power utility, so I'm pretty familiar with syncing to the grid :)

  • texasestexases Posts: 5,424
    "putting to use excess electricity produced by the vehicle alternator. "

    There is no excess electricity - why do you think there is? And to make matters worse, the 1 hp the HHO thing uses to produce hydrogen and oxygen, which, when burned, yield much less than half a horsepower. The thermal efficiency of a gas engine is about 20%, so only 20% of the energy used to create the hydrogen ends up being available to power the car. Honest (Google "Internal combustion engine efficiency" if you're curious). I know I may not convince you, but I can't let this stuff pass unchallenged. And what facts do you have to back up the 10 mpg claim?
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Obviously you didn't read what I posted. I was using those #s as an example, I have no idea if they are correct or not. For all I know it may be 1mpg cost and 1mpg gained. Of course I'd need to test it and see.

    And your alternator does produce more electricity than you use, or else if you turned on one extra accessory the car would stall out!

  • texasestexases Posts: 5,424
    OK, I just wanted to make sure it was an example. Here's another way to think about it - your engine can put out, say, 100 hp. You're driving along at 30 mph, using, say, 20 hp. Are those 80 hp available for free? Nope. Same deal with the alternator. It can put out more electricity as needed. Last time for me....
  • mort4371mort4371 Posts: 27
    And your alternator does produce more electricity than you use, or else if you turned on one extra accessory the car would stall out!

    The alternator CAN produce lots of electricity, up to whatever its rating. It DOES produce exactly the amount being used elsewhere in the car (lights, ignition, audio, fans, etc, etc) at any given time. If there's 'extra' electricity being produced at any given moment, where is it going?

    Every load on an alternator is a load on the engine; just a very small one. Every added load on the alternator is an added load on the engine. Your cellphone charger is probably costing you 0.00001 mpg (again, as you say, examples). One of these mason-jar contraptions might cost 0.003 mpg worth of electricity, and might generate sufficient hydrogen to gain back 0.001mpg of that, so the net loss is only 0.002 mpg.

    There is no free energy. I wish there were. The world would be an amazing place. Forget Kyoto -- forget reducing carbon emissions by a few percent -- we could cut carbon emissions to pre-industrial levels. Water-fueled power plants...just taking the 'extra' electricity from the generators, to split water, to make hydrogen, to burn in the turbines, to spin the generators, to power the grid, and using the 'extra' to split more water, etc...
  • pengibellapengibella Posts: 3
    Do you think it is possible to retro fit cars with hydrogen units? What do you think of this site.
  • mrclean5mrclean5 Posts: 4
    i had no problem in refitting my car to run on hydrogen i di have some bugs to work out of the system such as my computer was reading the fuel to be way too lean and tries to adjust but when it can't shuts off my hydro unit but ithink i may have solved that problem
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,424
    Can you do it? Yes. Will it make hydrogen that burns in your car? Yes, but you'll have to monkey with you intake system in ways the EPA never intended. Will you save gas? No, you can't take engine power to generate electricity, split water, and burn the gas (getting only 20% of the energy back), and get better mileage. Nope, no way, no how.
  • blackzablackza Posts: 1
    Hey i actually found a crazy guide that shows you how to burn hydrogen in your engine with the help of a , simple conversion kit

    According to the site, you can get more than 20% of your energy back as long as you install a hydrogen tank to store the gas, and what does the EPA know? It seems all they do is sit back while Bush deregulates everything and help destroy the environment, and promote corn Ethanol!!!!
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    Hey i actually found a crazy guide that shows you how to burn hydrogen in your engine

    Stick to eBay. Spamming isn't permitted on here.
  • Ok as far as monkey with your intake system H factors hydrogen is injected a head of the mass airflow sensor so no we don't monkey with the intake system. Will you save gas? - YES. Anytime you make a motor more efficient and it's use of fuel that efficiency transfers to more miles per gallon. As far as the energy it takes to start the process, which is amps, the h factor draws less than it takes to turn on your brake lights. Visit the web site and checkout the videos. :)link title
  • Winter? Aren't we talking about keeping a glass jar of water in the engine compartment? Wouldn't that explode when the water freezes (and thus, expands?) Or can this only be done in warm climates, or is there a heater to be put in the engine compartment that somehow does not require any energy to run? OR, is there some sort of anti-freezing agent that can be added to the water, such as ethanol (which would, of course, change the chemical compound in the jar) Hmmm, there's a great deal to think about here.

    The bottom line is this - if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. Also, if this amazing product which can help triple gas mileage can be yours for only $50, $150, or $299 (as I have seen advertised), why won't a dealer install this for you and charge you $500 for it? Or better yet, a manufacturer can install it and charge $1000! Who would argue for three times the mileage? The only reason can logically be that it does not work - at least, not yet.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,424
    "Anytime you make a motor more efficient and it's use of fuel that efficiency transfers to more miles per gallon. As far as the energy it takes to start the process, which is amps, the h factor draws less than it takes to turn on your brake lights. "

    Sorry, no free lunch. Any power you take from the engine to make hydrogen can only be returned by burning the hydrogen. You aren't making the engine more efficient, you're just putting another load on it, and using that power to make hydrogen. When you burn the hydrogen in the engine, you only get 20% of the energy released as mechanical energy. The other 80% is lost as heat energy, either out the radiator or out the exhaust pipe. A scam, pure and simple.
  • pyteljapytelja Posts: 1
    This water4sas crap aside. When is this country actually going to start seeing hydrogen cars for the consumer. I read a really good commentary at about a group out in Scandinavia that will have a fulling functioning Hydrogen highway by 2012. The best part is the hydrogen stations are completely self-contained and produce the hydrogen onsite from the municipal water supply. I mean are you going to tell me Scandinavia can produce this technology but the U.S. can't.

    I'd like to see hydrogen cars a reality, not just some PR stunt with city buses and taxis.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Again though there is a cost to make the Hydrogen. No free lunch as above.

  • teepsteeps Posts: 2
    I have found reading this forum to be very interesting. Before I go any further let me state that Hydrogen cells DO WORK, and I personally know people installing them, people using them, and people get around 30 mpg out of their V8 engines. Now, the real truth is that they are not a simple unit to install. That I know of there is only one unit on the market thar works. Yes you can build your own Hydrogen cell, but it WILL NOT work. Why? Because the ECM will not change the amount of gasoline being dumped into your engine. The only way to make your car get amazing gas mileage is to tune the computer to run the cell, and this is a very difficult process, usually involving multiple tunings to work. The only way to really pull tis off effectively is to have another computer installed that in essense lies to the ECM, telling it what it needs to hear to not trip any codes, and also to not make changes to he amount of fuel being dumped into the engine. If you can't understand what I'm saying with all of this, it means you don't understand the complexity of your car's computer.
    Now, to answer some of the questions, and statements generated on this forum let me start with the man who claims your alternator can't run a hydrogen cell. He is right, UNLESS you tune the engine. This involves tuning the fan not to run, and thus pulling the energy that the motor would use to run the fan to run the cell. It WILL NOT hurt your car, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. So long as you have a functioning radiator this poses no threat.

    Next, to the man who says anytime you cause your car to run better gas mileage improved let me assure you this is hardly the case. Again, it's te computer that determines gas mileage, not the cleanliness of your engine. The computer is set to run on a 14-1 air to gas particles. Now, the HHO gas helps substantially in vaporizing the fuel to make it more burnable, but the whole idea is to use LESS fuel. so if your fuel is super efficient but you're still burning 14-1, it's as though you've not done anything. This is why your homemade ghetto HHO cells will not work. You have to tell the computer to dump less fuel into the motor, and the only way to do tis is to tune every damn sensor on the vehicle, a very hard endeavor. There s only one company as of today that has the computer to go with the cell and it is called the Hyro-Assist Fuel Cell. It is also $2000 installed. If you ask me, worth every penny. They have Accords and Civics getting well into the 80+ mpg range, and lke I said V8's getting in the 30's. The installation is hard. but a $2000 investment that pays for itself in a year is the best investment I know of. Google it, the Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell. I'll let you know how mine goes when I get finished installing it on my '94 Nissan Pathfinder
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,424
    Hmmm...where to much BS, so little time....good job at concealing your advertisement, by the way.

    Actually, putting hydrogen right into your intake will work, because the O2 sensors will pick up that some of the oxygen's been burned to make H2O, and it'll cut back on the amount of gasoline to the injectors, so the energy is not all lost. You only get about 20% of it back though, that's the efficiency of an internal combustion engine, sorry. As for "tuning the fan not to run", that's a riot. Goodbye warranty, goodbye engine! Even if you do this, it doesn't free up any energy, you're still pulling energy from the engine to split the water. As for "it's te computer that determines gas mileage, not the cleanliness of your engine." the computer optimizes the operation of the engine - if it was a simple matter to readjust the computer to improve mileage, the automakers would have flipped that switch when gas prices passed $2/gallon.

    Good luck with your scam!
  • teepsteeps Posts: 2
    It's your loss bro. The product works, not your ghetto products, and it's warrantied to increase your fuel by 50%. You don't know what you're talking about. Here's the link.. Maybe now you can get a clue. Good luck with your ignorance..
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,424
    "Maybe now you can get a clue. Good luck with your ignorance"

    I'm so ashamed. :cry:
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