Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Honda Accord Diesel????

1121315171825

Comments

  • ilaveoilaveo Posts: 26
    Ruking1 is a little over-confident about the 300K mile thingy--see http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/my-ride/t-ride-of-the-week-august-1-2007-5719.htm- l
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,790
    Lets see, here is ONE of the highest mileage Prius' and I am over confident about the 300,000 miles thingy for diesels!!?????

    So I take it the car has had absolutely NO maintenance whatsoever?

    If some one with a diesel talked that way, you'd all laugh em off the planet.
  • ilaveoilaveo Posts: 26
    I thought among other things you were trash talking hybrids and essentially dared your readers to provide a link to the information I provided. Did I misunderstand?

    Read the thread and you'll see he didn't even change the tranny fluid till he was past 300K.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,790
    What is trash talk about this quote?

    ..." Let those 300,000 miles Hybrid owners talk about them!!"...

    ..."I have given references about 300,000 mile diesels- www.TDICLUB.com and you have not mentioned sites that talk about 2-10 year old hybrids that have 300,000 miles. You are clearly SWAGGING with not much back up; vs 300,000 miles referenced diesel realities. "

    The trash talk is essentially against diesels!!

    I've not changed the tranny fluid either. The diesel sees 25,000 mile engine oil change intervals. First tire set change and alignment will probably happen between 110,000 miles and 120,000 miles.
  • ilaveoilaveo Posts: 26
    "I have given references about 300,000 mile diesels- www.TDICLUB.com and you have not mentioned sites that talk about 2-10 year old hybrids that have 300,000 miles. You are clearly SWAGGING with not much back up; vs 300,000 miles referenced diesel realities. "

    Kinda sounds like trash talk and a dare to me-the caps lock is a dead give away.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,790
    Perhaps you should read the post that was in response to. Again, the "trash talk" was against diesels. I merely posted DIESEL references and asked for more than ZERO (at least one) reference/s for the Hybrids. Indeed YOU provided it and not the one to whose post I was responding! You have a strange conception of trash talking, especially for one that is actually doing the trash talking!!??

    So as I have said, if I told you I had 300,000 miles on my diesel (with no maintenance or references to it) and wrote like the guy did about his 300k plus hybrid with no details, you'd laugh me off the planet now would you not? So I said (told you) I am at 100,000 miles and you say/conclude I am over confident about diesels?????? Sounds like a dead give away that you are trying to start off and continue on the trash diesels' foot/footing and blame ME for trash talking!!?? If you are not, make it clear.
  • ilaveoilaveo Posts: 26
    Dude, settle down. I caught you getting a little over-excited about the whole hybrid vs. diesel thing is all.

    I drive a diesel at work. They're OK. Their main problems are smoke and when somebody sells you winter diesel that isn't. I don't know the specs for your diesel, but my mechanic says that replaceable cylinder liners are desirable if you want to get a ton of miles/hours out of a diesel engine.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,790
    Dude, if you drive a non-passenger diesel at work, what do you think on the subject of MITIGATED passenger diesels and ULSD? :)There are HUGE HUGE HUGE differences!!

    ..."but my mechanic says that replaceable cylinder liners are desirable if you want to get a ton of miles/hours out of a diesel engine."...

    That is one of my questions (durability) about the Honda's iCTDI diesel. I have read those "critical areas" are aluminum.

    So essentially I am swagging that it might be a real stretch to specify a 25,000 hour motor (IF it is EVEN specified that way) (50 mph*= 1M miles)into an Accord platform NOT designed for 500k to 1 M miles. This would mean that unless they come out and state these things (most likely NOT) we are 100,000, 200,000, 300,000 miles away from REAL WORLD data AFTER US market introduction, which is swagged at MY 2009.
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    Well for sure the US and Canada have differences (similarities of course). The point however was they have been going through 4 dollar gas for a while. It is pretty simple to see what will probably happen when 4 bux gas hits the US market. RUG & diesel are at par there. One other reason why we in the US should pay attention to Canada is they are one of the folks that we draw a big % and volume of foreign/imported oil.

    Oh don't get me wrong I have nothing against the Canucks. My point is car markets are not directly comparable. England has totally different driving than even Scotland.
    Go to any island country, Japan, Philippines, even to some extent Hawaii and those markets are different than Europe and German needs are different than England. The US has a lot of open highways and except for large cities is fairly spread out. Canadians pay more for their cars due to lower volume. They also get options and models that we in the US do not get.
    Pay attention? yes. Directly compare? No.
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    6. Swag = scientific wild-assed guess

    I looked this up in the Urban dictionary. I thought it might be an Aussie or a Pommie term as I have more than a few friends that use similar language. But decided to check it out rather than send an email.
    Is this some new popular California term I am just hearing about? It seems to be being use more and more, just curious.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The trash talk is essentially against diesels!!

    No that is not accurate. The hesitation is against VW auto's, the packaging that wraps the VW diesel engine.

    Note previously I mentioned that I'd expect the Honda packaging to prove very reliable, along of course with the diesel engine.

    It is no way a knock on diesel technology of which Honda seems to have the latest and most elegant solution for the NADM. We shall see though.
  • holewholew Posts: 71
    The long standing trend of German cars being of the highest quality and dependability has passed and the Japanese have now taken over this role. This is not just my opinion. It is the opinion of every person I know who has owned both a German car and a Japanese car. I have owned 5 MBs starting back in 1976 with a 240D. I kept it for 19 years and it gave good service for the total of 119,000 miles I drove it, but it was no where a perfect as several Japanese cars I have since owned including a 1994 Accord, a 1995 Toyota Camry, A 1999 Toyota Avalon and now a 2002 Lexus LS430. While the engines and transmissions on the 5 MBs I owned never had one problem it was other strange things which did. One item was the heater/AC blower motor on the 240D. The entire dash board had to be taken apart to replace it including the steering wheel. Cost of this repair was $750 to replace a $200 electrical motor. Then there was the rust, the power window motors and a variety of other electrical items. Sad to say the electrical problems seem to plague the VWs also as well as BMW and AUDI.

    On the other hand my ACCORD ran for over 100,000 miles not ever having single problem. My Camry ran 120,000 miles again without a problem and the person who bought it still has not had a problem after 180,000 miles. My Avalon which I am about to replace has 154,000 miles all without a single problem. The LEXUS LS430 has had one problem with the passenger side window coming unglued from its frame. Other then that one problem it has been trouble free for 80,000 miles.

    The Germans were accostomed to building cars regardless of cost, especially the MBs and BMWs. But when Japan started to build high quality lux cars to compete with the German makes at a far lower price that is when the German quality started to decline and their decline has not stopped. You need not look further then Consumer's Reports to discover which brands are relatively trouble free and most reliable and which are not.

    Just because a car maker places a longer warranty on their cars does not automatically mean they are better. Chrysler just came out with a lifetime warranty. Do you think that alone has increased the quality and reliability of Chrysler products? I think you know the answer to that one.

    As for a Diesel in a Honda first off that engine will be produced in Europe and not by Honda. I am not sure but I think it is either made by VOLVO or a French car maker. Not sure but I do know that Honda will not be making the engine at the beginning. It appears that the Japanese have never been for developing a diesel for their cars.

    As for the price of Japanese cars in Europe, the protectionist policies of the ECM have priced them out of the market so it is no wonder that they do not sell well in Europe. Here in the USA where we have little or no import fees on cars one can clearly see which cars sell the best in the worlds biggest car market. If the German car makers were as good as you say they are and if Hondas were as bad as you say they are then VWs and all the other German makes would dominate the car market here. THEY DO NOT!
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,790
    Given the fact I own them side by side, Honda VW and compare them directly, I think your characterization of my characterizations and comparisons are way off base, indeed misunderstood and at worst mischaracterized. Again this is NOT to DISCOUNT YOUR experiences. However from your writings, you compare them IN directly. Your example of your MB with 119,000 miles and 19 year ownership means an AVERAGE of 6,263 miles per year or 522 miles per mo. Pardon me for saying this, but your operative behaviors say you bought it more to keep around than drive it!!!?? In that case, you would have done far better with less expensive make/model, as they can sit around just as well as a more expensive vehicle and do so @ a much cheaper price. Indeed again operatively you have learned from those mistakes and now have bought less expensive cars. Indeed you might agree with me, the cheaper model does sit around just as well as the expensive cars and also does low miles, cheaper. Again not to even hint that this is invalid, but most are not addressing the side by side real time comparison.

    Again even as if I say it, no one has directly addressed the 2x FASTER wear of the Civic machine than the VW. Not a peep about that costing MORE, other than "SURVEY SAID"!!!! (Japanese cars being better) Honda as well as Toyota are fairly well known to cheap out on things such as consumables: i.e., brake pads, rotors, alignments, and tires. So I do not know what that says about quality and cost to most folks. Hopefully I have been clear as to what I think. At the same time, if that is alright with folks that pay real money, to that extent, it is not my problem when they do. I am basically saying mine is not as durable as the Jetta. For some reason folks are denying that. So it might be easy to conclude that it does not matter much to a larger majority of folks who pay real money for cars, as long as they keep the " perceptions" alive and folks keep buying. So yes, I can reiterate folks are not addressing the side by side comparison, but it is also fairly obvious even to them, they are not addressing what I am REALLY saying.

    What consumable parts are necessary to execute 500,000 miles? In the Jetta's case, the SWAG: 2.5/3 rotors/brake pad changes, 4/5 tire changes, 5 alignments, 20 engine oil and filter changes, 4/5 timing belt/water pump intervals, 2/3 suspension parts changes. Civics? Probably a min of 2x for most stuff. Of course the more normal that folks do is to buy 5 new cars in that same space of mileage.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,851
    Diesels vs anything else. The discussion exists to talk about the Accord diesel, specifically. It's getting awfully hostile and personal in here, with a lot of "smack talk" challenging tones.

    Further posts along those lines are subject to removal without notice.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • kmilkmil Posts: 6
    Will the '09 Diesel Accord be in BOTH the Sedan and Coupe?
    Please email: kmil123@msn.com
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I would bet against Honda putting diesel in the coupe anytime soon.
  • nedzelnedzel Posts: 787
    "Friends tell me the gasser Pilot/MDX get (when lucky) 20 mpg? It will be a hit for this best in class vehicle to get 27 mpg with a diesel. It would be killer to get 30-35 mpg."

    If a gas Pilot gets 20 mpg, no way a diesel would get 30-35 mpg. Diesel engines are typically 20-30% more efficient than gas. That would give a range of mpg from 24-27. To get 30 mpg would require a 50% increase in efficiency. Not gonna happen.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    I bet the production of the diesel engine will be in low numbers for at least the first year and maybe for several years.
    That could mean it might be offered on only one trim level (such as EX-L) and street price difference vs a well discounted gas Accord can never be recouped with gas savings.
    If the diesel is produced in low volumes, it will be as hard or harder to buy than a Honda Fit.
    If the MSRP is $2000 higher than a gas equivalent, but absolute best street price after negotiation of diesel is MSRP, VS $2000 below MSRP (in 2009) for best negotiated price for gas model, the net price difference is really $4000.

    How long will it take to save $4000 worth of gas?
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    A relative buying opportunity may exist at introduction of the Diesel.If gas prices are 2.75 at introduction Honda may price it at a smaller premium vs. the gassers. Economic slowing could also keep the price increment manageable.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    As jaxs1 pointed out, Honda is likely to take baby steps probably also dictated by production capacity. The premium is not necessarily dictated by demand, but by cost of production. It seems to be a reason Honda doesn't seem to be planning on putting diesel in Fit, instead go hybrid route in a like sized car which is expected to have a $1700 premium over equivalent gasoline version. OTOH, a dedicated tiny diesel might be a more expensive proposition for Honda besides having to design the car around it.

    It will be the trim level that will dictate the price. With LX/LX-P trimmings, it might cost $22K-$24K. If leather, moon roof and the expensive stuff... it might top out at $27K before you add NAV (which will take it to $29K).
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,790
    True! Essentially Honda had that experience with their Civic Hybrid.(7,400 premium in my case) I think they would be unwilling to repeat the same mistake with the Accord iCTDI. So, I would be inclined to agree with Blufz1. Introductory positioning will in the worst case, have/be a (Honda) marketing cost. As KDhSpyder has stated, (once committed) Honda needs to make diesel work.

    In hindsight, a $246. VW TDI premium, over VW gassers, while literally AGONIZED over by folks at the time, seems like a total no brainer, in light of the $4,000 (100k/30/50= 3333-2000=1333 gal *3=) fuel savings over 100,000 miles and up to 4,600 dollars higher resale value. Spend the $246.premium to save a min of 4k to a max of 8,600?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    If Honda puts diesel on EX-L trim with NAV, the premium would be about $9K over gasoline powered Accord. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,790
    While I am mindful to talk about Honda diesels, in comparison, MB puts a 1000 premium for their 50k plus diesel vs gasser and its diesel literally kicks the gassers' butt. The gasser version is literally a world class car in almost all ways.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I didn't have to go to MB. I have been sticking with Honda, and my expectations, assumptions around it. Unless you believe premium is just a number, and you can toss it around at will.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    This will be very very interesting when the 50 state compliant Jetta arrives in the Spring. We will have a good estimate of where the fuel economy numbers will fall.

    I'd expect our ( NADM ) Accord diesel to be right around 40 mpg Combined. So just like the hybrids let's do a small business analysis.

    First just like the hybrids if the single most important factor in the purchase of a vehicle is keeping the total cost of driving ( purchase + fuel ) as low as possible, then buy a good USED Accord or buy a base model 4c or buy a new Civic. These will always be less expensive in total for the individual's budget. Nothing new here.

    If however a buyer decides that he or she is looking for something new in the $28 - $35,000 range ( buyers often classify themselves by price range ) then the comparo between the EX-L and Diesel-L becomes valid.

    2.4L ICE EX-L w/Navi.. $30000 @ 24 mpg Combined
    2.2L Diesel-L w/Navi.. $32000( est ) @ 40 mpg Combined ( est )

    Average fuel pricing begins at $3 and increases $.50 annualy for 10 yrs.
    5 yr = $4.00 /gal
    7 yr = $4.50 /gal
    10 yr= $5.25 /gal

    Fuel Cost: 2.4L ICE @ 24 mpg Combined
    5 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 75000/24 ) * $4.00 = $12,500
    7 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 90000/24 ) * $4.50 = $16,900
    10 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 150000/24 ) * $5.25 = $32,800

    Fuel Cost: 2.2L D @ 40 mpg Combined
    5 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 75000/40 ) * $4.00 = $7,500
    7 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 90000/40 ) * $4.50 = $10,100
    10 yrs at 15000 per yr = ( 150000/40 ) * $5.25 = $19,700

    Total costs ( Purchase + Fuel ):
    ......... 2.4L ICE .... 2.2L D
    5 yrs.... $42,500 ..... $39,500 ( $3000 savings )
    7 yrs.... $46,900 ..... $42,100 ( $4800 savings )
    10 yrs... $62,800 ..... $51,700 ( $11100 savings )

    Resales at 5 and 7 yrs to be determined
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    You did not take into account differences in street prices.
    People are not going to being paying MSRP for a 2009 2.4 ICE. The gas Accords will commonly be heavily discounted in a year from now.
    If Honda has production constraints and only ships a few hundred Accord diesels per month nationwide in 2009, many dealers will be selling them with added markup and it will take an effort to find one being sold without markup.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,790
    ..."I didn't have to go to MB. I have been sticking with Honda, and my expectations, assumptions around it. Unless you believe premium is just a number, and you can toss it around at will. "...

    Right, that is why I went to a few comparisons (VW,$246/MB,$1,000 not many more sell passenger diesels) . A 9,000 dollar premium might work in a vacuum, but even a much more costly vehicle has a lower premium than what you mentioned/ are swagging. Indeed if KDhSpyder's math is correct, it would make NO economic sense to get a Honda Accord diesel with a 9,000 premium. Indeed I would not buy it. I have also NOT made it a secret that I like diesels! :)

    So truly it is NOT "a toss around at will" sort of issue. It is more of a price it right or get ground up or even DIE!! sort of issue and for multi millions! Again I point to a lesser premiumed-Honda Civic Hybrid. It does make sense if like a Prius, it is bought by folks to make their "STATEMENT" or status, etc. etc. But as Honda discovered, not many folks chose to make their statements with the Civic Hybrid. :( So for example when considering a 2004 Prius (sort of a redesigned one off category) the (at the time 15.4k) premium over a Honda Civic/Corolla made not much sense for a plain everyday commute. Indeed I could buy another Civic/Corolla for the premium.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    A 9,000 dollar premium might work in a vacuum

    The formula to create the vacuum came from your book. You never shy away from comparing Civic Hybrid to the basic Civic, so why change it now?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,790
    Hey, since we are talking Honda Accord diesel, it has its gasser and gasser hybrid (Camry) Toyota would love to eat Honda's lunch here. :(. So to the point where it is germane I mention it, when it is not, I do not. If folks agonize about a $246. premium, what would you surmise a $9,000 dollar premium would pose? All things being as equal as they possibly can be.
Sign In or Register to comment.