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Honda Accord Diesel????

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,953
    This might be a clarification since what we have talked about is not sound bite able.

    Perhaps you should read my take on the 2020 35 mph standard with similar deviation characteristics from the current 27 mpg standards. So for example, using your quote of 18 mpg (on an epa 16/22) , that is -9/27=33.3%*35=-11.655=23.35 mpg. So assuming the same relative deviance, anything over 23.35 is PURE gravy (from the 2020 35 mpg standards view) . Indeed given the current epa, the higher number of range (30%-your take) would be 28.6 mph.

    A run away hit (which was the declaration/ hope is still of course 35 mpg. So between 25-40 mpg why would anyone get a for example get an inappropriate car ? (size 4 shoe when a 10 fits?) So for example on the 2003 Jetta there is 29 mpg gassers and 48 mpg diesel . Now the diesel gets 39.6% better ( I can routinely get 50-59 mpg) but I can be a bit of a lead foot so I used 48 mpg) . . These have been on the market since before 2003. So if Honda is able to match the RATIOS of VW, motors, my take is those targets will make Honda Pilot a run away hit, expand the segment, not sink it.
  • Thanks for the welcome!

    I have 142,000 miles on my Passat, and it's still running efficiently and strong...the only problem is that the interior is beginning to show the years (the headliner is sagging, the seat fabric is showing as many wrinkles as I am, and the fabric boots for the shifter and the emergency brake need to be replaced). I bought my Pilot back in 10/02, and it has 67,000 miles on it. Those miles would have been on my Passat, but the Pilot is a great vehicle and I fit more comfortably.

    My mileage experience with my Pilot is 21/22 mpg...mixed highway and secondary roads...I trade off between the Passat and the Pilot with about 10,000 miles/year in the Pilot and about 14,000/year in the Passat.

    By the way, diesel fuel in our area (central Virginia) is about $3.25/gallon. Based on the mileage I am able to achieve with my Passat (a little more than 2x the mileage in the Pilot), it's like paying $1.63 for a gallon of gas! Not bad, even with the escalating fuel prices we're seeing these days.

    If I can beat the mileage estimates for the original Pilot, maybe I will be able to reach the low thirties when the diesel is introduced.

    I think that Honda is on to something. The current diesel technology at VW meets or beats the hybrids when the vehicles are used for long distance/highway driving. I really feel that if Honda can match the efficiency of the VW diesels, and produce a vehicle of typical Honda quality, they will be, literally, miles ahead of their competition.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,953
    For sure the Honda Pilot has been "best in breed" for a few years. I doubt Honda will give up one of those in THAT segment. So if you look at the 2020 new 35 mph standards, it is almost a no brainer (SWAG) for Honda to use a V6 turbo diesel. I think the difficulty will be a (new) good 6/7 speed automatic.

    Using your example of 20 mpg, the current Pilot deviates from the current 27 mpg standard app 26%. So assuming no change in deviance that would put the (forward looking) Pilot at 26 mpg.

    MB E320 V6, 3.0L (210 hp/400 #ft of torque (turbo diesel) currently is epa rated at 23/32. I know a guy that has one and cruising at 80 mph gets 40 mpg.

    So it will be interesting to see what happens.
  • nedzelnedzel Posts: 787
    "O. K. It'll get 30-31 highway,pull 6500 pounds, last 500k, and can be parked in your garage. What's so bad about that?"

    Nothing. Except that it is a pipe dream and won't happen. Pulling 6500 pounds, sure. Able to fit in a garage? Sure.

    Last 500k? Maybe. The reality of diesel reliability is that old, heavy, iron-block, low rpm, low-powered diesels would last forever. As is seen in the boating world, light, high-power, turbo-charged diesels don't last as long. David Pascoe debunks some of the myths around diesels: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm

    Getting 30 mpg on the highway in the near future? Not going to happen. Mercedes has some of the best diesels on the market, but their diesel M-series and GL-series (which are similar in size and weight to the Pilot) don't get near 30 mpg.

    And the increased emissions regulations are both adding cost and reducing mileage.

    Yes, the Mercedes diesel sedans get excellent mileage. But an SUV is not a sedan. SUVs have about 50% larger cross-sectional area and the aerodynamic drag is directly proportional to the cross-sectional area. In addition, SUVs have more ground clearance, so there is more air moving underneath the vehicle, adding to aerodynamic drag. Increased aerodynamic drag greatly reduces mileage at highway speeds.

    In addition, SUVs are heavier, have higher tow ratings, and higher gross vehicle weight ratings, so they need larger tires. The larger tires increase rolling friction, also reducing economy. SUVs are also heavier and that also reduces economy.

    I am a diesel supporter. Diesels are the best currently available technology for light trucks. But we need to look at them realistically. They will give us ~30% improvement in mileage, but at an added cost of ~$4000 due to the ridiculous EPA and CARB regulations. They won't get us to 35 mpg on a full size SUV.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,953
    There is no doubt you are describing variance. Indeed if you are saying there are NO guarantees that ALL will get (in this case) 35 mpg or 500,000 miles on a diesel engine, you indeed would be spot on. However your position/take really conveys NO real information. Way too broad brush. Indeed there is NO piece of YOUR equipment I could not beat to death better than you!?? :shades: Conversely vice versa would probably apply. : UPSHOT: variance. In effect your positions glosses over the 25-40% fuel advantage. Another is the fact the diesel is better adapted to our roads than a like model gasser.

    A good example is the Honda Civic (gasser) thread Real World MPG. For my .02 cents one of the better so called "economy" cars currently on the market. Can it be better/worse? ABSOLUTELY. Example: some folks look at the EPA 29/38 like a deer looking at the head lamps. It becomes almost mantra/cult like in terms of how dissatified they are if they do not get the EPA. Now the VARIANCE is printed on the new car sticker which is almost totallly ignored.

    There is also a survey of app 587 (at last post) Civic drivers and indeed the survey shows what drivers have reported. Predictably there is variance.

    Indeed I am living "the pipe dream". However my take is it is seamless reality. I need 400,000 to 900,000 more miles to say the turbo diesel engine can/can't last 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles. Like model gasser/s Jetta's struggle to get 29 mpg. On a TDI, I routinely get 48-52 mpg in a daily routine commute, point a to point b, The range has been from 44-62 mpg. Using your broad brush strokes, 29 mpg is no different than 48-52 mpg. Mathmatically impossible to get 62 mpg. 5th grade math would beg to differ.

    Again using that same routine commute, a 450 # LIGHTER Honda Civic gets 38-42. If we compensate for the lighter weight by saying taking readings with 3 more passengers what do you think would happen with the Civic mpg?
  • blaneblane Posts: 2,017
    If a quarter of one percent of the potential buyers of vehicles are interested in keeping them running for half a million miles it would be a miracle.

    Very few people would stand for hanging headliners, worn upholstery, broken seats, rusted out frames and bodies, trashed transmissions, busted suspensions, pitted windshields, torn rubber boots, flaky electical systems, etc, etc. No matter how much preventative maintenance or cost incurred in that endeavor, it won't happen. Not even for a quarter of a million miles.

    The vast majority of drivers want clean and new. If they can't afford that, they will come as close as possible within their budgets.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,953
    I would agree.

    But at the same time, there is really no magic, just scheduled good cleaning and maintenance. . But then again I used to think cars with 100,000 miles turned into Cinderella/Cinderfella. Of course, there is a bit of skill, luck, involved by not having accidents.

    I had one gasser vehicle that I sold for a 44% loss after 14 years and 250,000 miles. It easily had 15/16 years left on the body.We have another with 150,000 miles and 14 years. It still looks good to go for another 16 years. So if one happens to do more miles per year than the average (12,000-15,000 miles per year) a diesel can really be a good bet.
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    Come on,Blane! Real men drive their cars a long time and compound interest on fewer dollars invested. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,953
    I would agree!

    I think also the cost per mile driven is a metric on Edmunds.com most folks ignore. So take a lookat any car of interest.

    Indeed the IRS for business vehicles gives a (2007/2008).485/.505 cent deduction. So really the only way to get these figures down is to keep it (long) pass the quoted payment periods (5 year operations figures) Needless to say the cost per mile driven is an ever increasing one.

    Let me put it this way:

    gasser, 29 mpg/3.25= .112 cents per gal

    diesel, 50 mpg/3.50=.065. cents per gal

    Sure there is a VERY important 42% savings in fuel, but as you can see % wise the percentages are app 22- 13% of the REAL COST per mile driven.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,953
    gasser, 29 mpg/3.25= .112 cents (change) per mile driven

    diesel, 50 mpg/3.50=.065. cents (change) per mile driven
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    Getting 30 mpg on the highway in the near future? Not going to happen. Mercedes has some of the best diesels on the market, but their diesel M-series and GL-series (which are similar in size and weight to the Pilot) don't get near 30 mpg.

    I have a friend with a GL320 CDI that averaged 27.9 MPG on his last trip from Oregon to San Diego. Mostly 75 MPH on I-5. The ML320 CDI on its cross country match-up with the RX400h got around 32 MPG on the highway. I think overall it beat the hybrid by 2.5 MPG combined. The GL is nearly 1000 heavier than the Pilot. With a light foot I think 35 MPG highway is possible. Especially if they use the 2.2L 4 cylinder. That is not likely with the US demand for sub 6 second 0-60 MPH specs.
  • phantomvphantomv Posts: 101
    Well, I cannot comment even theoretically about Honda Diesel performance or mileage other than what has been written in AUTO about Europe's Hondas. BUT, we owned an '86 BMW 524 TD. The car was a disaster otherwise but the diesel??
    0-60 in 11 secs and 42 MPG on the highway between Virginia and Syracuse, NY with A/C.on, two adults/two children and a full trunk, cruising at 75-80 MPH. Awesome. That was easily 15 MPG better than a 528i would have done.

    So, I am no engineer but it seems a diesel engine CAN get SIGNIFICANTLY better mileage than a comparably sized gasloine engine
  • Article regarding Honda Diesel Engine Introduction:

    quote: "This engine will debut in the new Accord range in Europe in mid-
    2008."

    quote: "Honda will introduce its new 2.2-liter Tier 2 Bin 5 diesel—the i-DTEC—in the Acura line in North America in 2009, according to Honda President and CEO Takeo Fukui at the North American International Auto Show. "

    Another quote: "This engine is due to debut in the US and Japan in 2009."

    Then it says: "Fukui said that the i-DTEC engine will appear in a Honda model in the US in the future."

    Last we heard the VW TDI would come to the US in 2008, although it had been delayed from spring 2008 until later in the year. (?september 2008?).

    So it looks like we may only have the new VW diesels this year.

    Thats a big competitive disadvantage for Honda to be a year behind VW with an affordable diesel.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,447
    That is huge. My father has been nursing his Passat along until the Accord diesel came out. He can't wait another year though. He was planning on September (or hopefully sooner).

    Looks like a Jetta will have to do.
  • Does 2009 debut refer to model year or calendar year? If model year that means it could potentially be available in 2008.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    My father has been nursing his Passat along until the Accord diesel came out. He can't wait another year though

    Is his Passat a diesel? 2005, 2006, 1996, or 1997 Passat if it's a diesel?
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    I believe they are referring to an '09 debut of a 2010 MY model.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    The new Accord diesel will fail here if diesel prices stay the same in New England! I just filled my car with premium and that cost me $3.19 per gallon and diesel prices have varied between $3.34 and $3.65 per gallon!
    Diesel has always been higher here but it's way above premium and no way could I justify those prices, unless it comes down to rival premium fuel.
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    Check out the Edmunds post re the new Honda diesels. It states the V6 diesel will be used in the Accord and other larger vehicles. A V6 diesel in the Accord could be fun.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,447
    No his Passat is a 1.8t wagon with a stick. It does Ok on gas (mid thirties hwy) but not near a diesel.

    Brother had a Rabbit diesel with a 20 gallon tank - ran forever. The owners manual on the Rabbit actually said to bring it into the dealer if it ever got less than 40 mpg.
  • imscfimscf Posts: 34
    If Honda make the same mistake with the diesel as it did with the hybrid - i.e. - load it with extras and sell it only as a high-end option - then it will be also a failure.
    To be viable, the diesel engine should be available on all models, including the LX/4, with only a very modest increase in price.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    Would a $2000 premium be acceptable? I imagine the diesels will run $1000-2000 more than comparably equipped gassers.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,953
    I would also agree! This is what VW did and it probably did more for USA diesel awareness than most folks will even know or give credit for. They pretty much were able to sell their whole inventory. However since Honda did experience a so called "mistake" with the hybrid (i.e. slow sales, but GREAT product) they have elected to hit the market first with the Acura TSX (the exact scenario you swag will come to failure) . The Honda diesel in Europe is /has been actually sold on the TSX platform. So from their point of view, Honda is addressing the US diesel market in a cost effective way. If they see that it is a hit, I think your advocated scenario will follow.
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    Edmunds reporting from the auto show stated that the Honda V6 diesel was slated to be used in the ACCORD and other larger vehicles!!!!!! Is it possible Honda would put the V6 diesel in the Accord? A V6 diesel might actually fit in the larger Accord. Do you guys think this is a misprint?
  • mtlewmtlew Posts: 2
    Why was there no mention of a Honda Accord Diesel at the Detoit Auto show? The only mention I saw was of a diesel Acura,
  • mtlewmtlew Posts: 2
    Where did Edumunds report this? On their web site?
  • News links:

    http://www.autosavant.net/2007/10/honda-accord-diesel-and-new-hybrid.html

    http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31947

    It is now unclear if the new diesels will debut in Sept. 2008 or Sept. 2009. The above links just add to the confusion with news of the diesel V6 coming in 2009.

    Now there are rumors that the Honda diesel engine will debut in an Acura. That will be a very bad choice for Honda. Acura buyers are usually more into bling status and performance than diesel gas mileage.

    Putting the diesel enigne into the full line of Accords will sell a lot more vehicles and will allow diesel to become acceptable to the US novice diesel buyer faster.

    Last I heard the VW diesels were still coming out Sept. 2008.

    Now I am starting to wonder if Honda is playing games with the multiple, constantly changing announcements of the diesel engine release date to keep VW and other competitors guessing. Their announcements now sure have me guessing in confusion when the true release dates are.

    We'll just have to kick back and wait another 6 months before we know anything definitive on release dates.

    The Honda hydbrid and electric vehicles are also being kept secret as to their release dates.

    We need more high mileage vehicles here in the US NOW!!!!!

    -nano
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    Yes,it's on inside line latest news from Detroit. it's a few days old so scroll down a few screens. Honda clean diesel,etc. Possible, I guess, as the 3.5 gasser V6 obviously fits.
  • sorry, forgot this link about the Acura Diesel:

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/GreenCarAdvisor/173
This discussion has been closed.