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Honda Accord Diesel????

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  • Problem with Hybrids now is they use old fashioned GASOLINE. Tier2 Bin5 Diesel WITH Hybrid....now that's something to be happy about.
  • Why a sedan?
    I want the Torque. The VW Tiguan will tow 2 1/2 Tons...which is amazing. That's what diesel is known for aside from a third better mileage....and you can make it yourself and you're not as dependant on people who don't like us.

    My dream is a SUV type not so big w/ good towing and with Tier2 Bin5 clean Diesel matched with Hybrid= 40-60 mpg.

    This is Doable.
    I'm impatient.
  • From a business standpoint, Honda really needs to get the diesel into the 2009-model year Accord. I'm sure the current Camry, Altima, Aura and Malibu Hybrids, or even the regular gas-powered engines of these models, are really dipping into its core business with the increase in gas prices and the fact that the 2008 Accord, with it's body-size growth, isn't nearly as fuel efficient as consumers had hoped and come to expect from Honda. For consumers to move down to a Civic for fuel efficiency takes them out of the "family" car segment, and for consumers to upgrade to an Acura TSX for a diesel does not make sense for a few different reasons:

    In the current down economy, you are not going to get many consumers to fork over thousands more for an essentially re-branded Accord with a few more gimmicks just to get a family-sized car with a diesel engine.
    Fuel companies are not likely to expand diesel fuel availability for TSX-only sales volume, however TSX and Accord sales volume would garner much more attention with the Accord being one of the top selling models in NA.
    With engineering and development costs for the new NA-based diesel engine, there just isn't enough TSX market volume for Honda to justify putting the diesel in the TSX first without putting it in the Accord at the same time. If the diesel offering ultimately fails in the market in the TSX only, there isn't enough TSX sales volume to recover the costs, and to have them rush to put it into the Accord to recover the costs will not work since, in this scenario, the market has already seen the diesel fail in the TSX. If the diesel offering fails in the market while being offered in both the Accord and TSX at the same time, the likelihood of cost recovery is much better.
    The typical TSX shopper is generally in a different (higher) income class that is not as focused on gas prices (and probably not as focused on helping the environment) as the average income family-sized car shopper.

    Thus, the consumer's only other current option would be to turn to other manufacturers' offerings. Additionally, there are numerous new offerings coming to market in CY2009 that Honda really needs to compete with to remain viable as a fuel-efficient family-sized car manufacturer (namely a Fusion hybrid and Jetta diesel). I cannot imagine the folks at Honda have not planned for this (if they haven't, I will be very disappointed), and with diesel technology already tried and tested in Europe with great success for many, many years now, there really isn't much pressure to bring a diesel engine to the NA market in the Accord with gas prices being at their current levels with no expectation of them decreasing significantly below the current levels ever again (maybe $2.50 or $3.00 per gallon, but that's about it).

    Yes, diesel prices are definitely higher than gas prices, but that has not always been the case, and they are usually parallel in their price movement, so if one goes up, the other will likely go up, and vice versa. Even if diesel prices did stay higher than unleaded prices, you are talking about $0.80/gallon more right now in the northeast which, on a 15-gallon fill-up, would only cost you another $12/fill-up to gain on average 10 to 15 more miles per gallon. Figure it this way, if you get 350 miles on a 15-gallon tank at $4.00/gallon of unleaded fuel, you are spending roughly $.17/mile. If you average 10 more miles per gallon (probably worst-case scenario) with a diesel engine, you would get 500 miles on a 15-gallon tank. At $4.80/gallon of diesel fuel, you would be spending roughly $.14/mile, $0.03/mile better than a regular gasoline engine, and remember again that this is probably a worst-case scenario.

    Thoughts??
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    The Accord is getting a V6 Diesel in 2011.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,669
    Gee, I hope not. I always assumed that in typical Honda fashion, they would bring in the 4-cylinder diesel for other models once they staged its much bally-hooed debut in the TSX next year. Why use it in just one model?

    It's just the latest in a mile-long list over the years of Honda keeping things close to its chest. You watch: by Christmas next year Accord diesels will be for sale. Honda needs a more fuel-efficient Accord ASAP, its lunch is getting eaten by everyone, even CHEVY for goodness' sake.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,680
    I'm with you. For Honda to bring the V6 diesel in an Accord is lunacy. It will prove that they are trying to compete with GM rather than be the best mileage cars in the World. Right now they are losing big time to Toyota and VW. They would be repeating the blunder they made with the Accord Hybrid. What a joke that was, ON THEM.

    PS
    The V6 diesel in the Ody and Pilot would be good.
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    The new Accord is simply to large to perform well with the 4 cylinder diesel. The Civic and the CRV will ultimately get the 4. The Odyssey,Ridgeline,Pilot,and Accord get the 6 diesel. The 6 diesel is probably 3.5 liters.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,407
    The CRV actually takes more power to maintain speed on the highway than the new Accord. It is barely lighter and has worse aerodynamics.

    I think a 4-cyl would do fine in an Accord. The people buying diesels would likely not care.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,680
    The 4 cylinder diesel has to have more torque than the 4 cylinder gas engine. My understanding is most Accords are bought with 4C gas engine. The Accord should be capable of 50 MPG highway with a 4C diesel. The MB GL320 CDI is only a 3L diesel and it has way more than enough acceleration in that 5300 lb 7 passenger SUV. To me anything over a 4C diesel in a car is overkill. There is no way the Accord will compete with the BMW 335D so why waste the fuel? If you are after stop light acceleration just get the V6 Gas Accord. The 2.2L Honda diesel has 250 ft lbs of torque. Almost 100 ft lbs more than their 2.4L gas engine. That should push that 3400 lb boat on down the road fine.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,669
    Yeah, no question it will be the 4-cylinder, not the 6, when diesel finally arrives in the Accord. Which I am thinking is less than 18 months away now. Can you imagine if they used the V-6 diesel? Maybe they would have a competitor to the R8 on their hands! :-P

    Ford is claiming the next Fusion, also due in less than 18 months, will be the fuel economy leader in its class. In one short year Toyota and Honda have gone from having the fuel economy leaders in the midsize class to being almost at the bottom. Honda NEEDS this new diesel, pronto.

    As for the diesel V-6, I agree that Honda needs to get that one into the Pilot and the Ridgeline ASAP. Maybe make it the ONLY engine for the Ridgeline.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    Agree...........But........the engine bay on the CRV is designed for only a 4 cylinder engine. The new Accord engine bay will accomodate a 6 cylinder V block. So it's much less cost/time to fit a diesel of the proper size to the already existing properly sized engine bay. Diesel engines weigh 150 pounds more than an equally sized gasser so that's also a factor. Honda is only building 2 diesels, the 4 and the 6, so it will be interesting to see in which cars the 4 and the 6 ultimately appear. The 6 is first appearing in the ODY.
  • imscfimscf Posts: 34
    Honda's Accord Hybrid, a 6-cylinder only, loaded with luxury, was a big bust, as it did not deliver the high mileage expected of a hybrid and was overpriced. Toyota did the smart move and introduced the Camry Hybrid as a 4-cylinder, and it is now a big seller.
    Will Honda repeat the Hybrid mistake by introducing the Diesel as a 6-cylinder only, or has it learned its lesson?
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    You will ultimately be able to get the diesel 4 in the civic. If you can't wait, then get the TSX diesel coming in 2009.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,669
    There's no way the Accord will have a 6-cylinder diesel unless they offer BOTH 4- and 6-cylinder diesels and drop the V-6 gas.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    Well,then, you better tell that to Left Lane News 'cause they are reporting the V6 Diesel in the Accord.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,680
    Here is what left lane news has on the Accord diesel:

    Honda has officially announced that it will add a diesel option to the U.S. Accord range for 2009. Earlier reports indicated that Honda would offer diesel power for 2009, although it was unclear which model or models would receive the option. The diesel engine will be the same 2.2L unit found in the European Accord.

    That makes a lot more sense than a V6 diesel. This car will beat the socks off the Camry hybrid. That is what Honda needs.
  • blufz1blufz1 Posts: 2,045
    What's the date of your report? This is obviously and older report. The V6 diesel in the Accord report was dated 7/11/08 as I recall.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I think Honda, as it often does, lead with its mouth and got punched squarely in the teeth by rocketing diesel prices. As you noted above there is little or no market for a premium bling vehicle that requires the most expensive fuel in the country.

    Honda by hiding the 'Accord' away in the closet ( Acura stores ) is guaranteeing that it gets little or no attention. It can't put this vehicle in Honda stores and have the public reject it a la the Accord hybrid. But it can say that it did follow through and brought it's diesel 'Accord' to market on time.

    As to the economics of why the smaller TSX/Accord is the better buy this is a calculation for a minority of the population. Basic facts are that the bulk of the buying population can't and doesn't want to do such analyses. Those who can do the anaylsis will appreciate the benefits. However just think of the people with whom you went to school. Most would have no idea that such an analysis was available and as soon as the subject of math was broached their eyes would glaze over. KISS for this group. Thus for the vast majority of the buyers trying to rationalize why a more expensive vehicle burning the most expensive fuel is a GOOD thing is just beyond their comprehension.

    My own estimates are that the TSX/'Accord' diesel will get real world values of about 37 mpg on a combined basis. This is a huge improvement over an I4 gasser which should normally be getting about 27 mpg on a combined basis. That 10 mpg improvement over a 15 gal fillup also comes to the same 150 miles of extra range for the TSX/Accord that you estimate.

    However the math is a lot closer...
    15 gal x $4.80 = $72 / 555 mi = $.13 / mi
    15 gal x $4.00 = $60 / 405 mi = $.14+ / mi

    The economics and marketing aside if these are the numbers then Honda should just bite the bullet and put the diesel in the larger/heavier Accord and 'do the right thing' for us as a nation. Make it a 'greenie' and/or patriotic campaign to save fuel.
    [EDIT: it appears from the recent reports noted above that the 2.2L diesel may actually be offered in the Accord, I agree that a V6 diesel is a white elephant]

    At 37 mpg ( 27 gal/1000 mi driven ) for the diesel driver vs 27 mpg ( 37 gal / 1000 mi driven ) for the gasser driver [interesting mathematical juxtaposition here ] a diesel driver saves 10 gal of fuel for every 1000 mi driven. This assumes of course that the new larger, heavier Accord can achieve these numbers.

    We're still waiting for the TSX numbers from the EPA. I don't think Honda wants to get into a VW situation by trumpeting some elevated numbers then having to scramble to correct the public perception of 'We did an OOOPs on the fuel numbers'.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,680
    It was last year sometime. I did not see any more recent on the Accord diesel. The V6 diesel in the Accord would be lucky to get more than high 30s on the highway. That would not be an advantage over the TCH.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,407
    The V-6 diesel may not even have an advantage on the I4 gasser mpg wise. Kinda like the hybrid Accord was the second most efficient Accord (after the I4 MT).
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