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Land Rover LR3

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  • "The recall is for a know and experienced problem with the fumes of a refilling gas tank igniting and causing the car to catch on fire. They noticed the problem when someone, WHILE refueling their car, WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING, and temperatures well above 90*F, the fumes ignited and the cars were destroyed"

    "I think that says it all folks "

    This is not true as stated in previous threads and on The NHTSA.
    Please see the actual recall information and stop spreading errornous information.

    Make : LAND ROVER Model : LR3 Year : 2005
    Manufacturer : LAND ROVER
    NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 05V376000 Mfg's Report Date : AUG 26, 2005
    Component: FUEL SYSTEM, GASOLINE:STORAGE
    Potential Number Of Units Affected : 17263
    Summary:
    SOME SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES MAY HAVE FUEL TANKS THAT CONTAIN AN INTERNAL BREATHER PIPE THAT WAS NOT MADE TO SPECIFICATION. THIS COULD RESULT IN EXCESSIVE SWELLING AND CRACKING OF A GROMMET AND SUBSEQUENT DETACHMENT OF THE BREATHER PIPE FROM A CONNECTOR TUBE. WHEN THE FUEL LEVEL IN THE TANK IS ABOVE THE LEVEL OF THE DETACHED JOINT, FUEL MAY THEN ENTER THE BREATHER PIPE.
    Consequence:
    THE VEHICLE MAY EXHIBIT MIL ILLUMINATION, FUEL ODOR, DRIVABILITY CONCERNS SUCH AS HESITATION, MISFIRE, STALLING, ROUGH RUNNING, OR DIFFICULTY IN STARTING. IF THE AMOUNT OF FUEL FLOWING INTO THE BREATHER PIPE REACHES THE VAPOR CANISTER AND EXCEEDS ITS CAPACITY, THE EXCESS FUEL MAY BE DISCHARGED ONTO THE GROUND. FUEL LEAKAGE IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE COULD RESULT IN A FIRE.
    Remedy:
    DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE FUEL TANKS. THE RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON OCTOBER 14, 2005. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT LAND ROVER AT 1-800-637-6837.
    Notes:
    LAND ROVER RECALL NO. B016. CUSTOMERS CAN ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), OR GO TO HTTP://WWW.SAFERCAR.GOV.

    This says it could start a fire. Does anyone see where is say 90 degrees ? Does anyone see where it says during refilling?

    Then again if it is on the internet in any form it must be true..... :D
  • It seems to many, it is dumb to be filling ones tank in high temperatures with the engine running, but there's more to this. Most of these problems started in Dubai and UAE, where temps above 90 are the norm. In addition, it would be rare for a native of either country(read rich) to fill one's own tank. That would be left to others, while the driver remained in the vehicle. Since air conditioning is a must, the engine would have to be running.

    Please don't assume that what appears abnormal to some, is necessarily wrong, or even crazy. Just when you think that says it all...
  • kandgkandg Posts: 53
    Please don't assume that what appears abnormal to some, is necessarily wrong, or even crazy.

    I don't perceive it as matters of protocol, procedure or custom. This just appears to be lack of good common sense. No matter what part of the world you're in.

    If i remember my basic physics properly...(it's been a while :blush: )

    Vapour and Flash fires from fumes require spark. Explosions (in this case gasoline fumes) are caused by the buildup of pressure due to expansion and the resultant rapid release conversion into kinetic energy by combustion initiated by ignition.
  • Final update - 8 days in dealer service. Swapped out front passenger seat for new front passenger seat either because they could not figure out problem or part was back ordered (I can't figure out from the service receipt). Supposedly fixed climate control - rear control is now working and heat does seem to be coming out, but the temp setting is clearly off (setting it at 70 or 68 degrees is just not as chilled as it was, but maybe it was just so off in the first place...).

    At any rate, that is it. I am off now, not to post until I see what appears to be the inevitable fuel tank/leak issues arising!
  • Just a lurker here. However, I had to comment on this poster's allegations regarding fuel octane.

    I think you need to research octane yourself first before hurling stones at someone else's lack of knowledge. The octane of a fuel relates to its tendency to pre-ignite, and is used in higher performance engines that create combinations of heat and pressure in the cylinder that may lead to pre-ignition. It has absolutely nothing to do with starting,idling, or economy. If this new LR motor is like many newer ones, its knock sensor will retard the timing, throttle, or other engine parameters when it detects engine knock to prevent damage to the engine. This is going to be on the top end of performance, though, or when the engine is hot and under a heavy load. For the vast majority of people, they will never notice the few HP lost to lower octane. Despite all of the bull crap you read on these boards about how people gained 5 mpg by switching to premium, the real scientists have proven that higher octane stops pre-ignition, and that's all.

    The other issue I feel compelled to comment on, somewhat unrelated to this post, is the amount of effort by some LR owners, and other owners of vehicles with not-so-good reliability records, to dismiss those with problems as "trolls," uninformed, FUD spreaders, or other name calling. Individual owners do generally own one vehicle of a kind, which is not a statistical sample. Land Rover, as a brand, has been toward the bottom of statistical reliability. Justify your individual luck however you want, but statistically, one buying a Land Rover is rolling the dice, relatively speaking.

    That's fine with me, though. We all can buy whatever we want (or can afford) in America. If the positive aspects of the vehicle are more meaningful than the issues, then you will enjoy the car just like a Corvette owner. I, for one, bought a Land Cruiser because I could not stand the issues faced by many on this board. It also has issues, but reliability is typically not one of them.

    I suspect that I will be labeled as spreading FUD, but this is my $0.02. With some facts about octane.

    Regards,
    Tom
  • An update to my previous post...After 30 days at the dealership and only 900 miles my '05 LR3 HSE was replaced by an '06 LR3 HSE with more features. I've had ther new vehicle for 2 weeks with no problems (yet). I HAVE THE '06 BLUETOOTH OPTION and it works like a dream. The vehicle detects my cellphone within 30 seconds of starting the ignition. The radio display flashes "bluetooth detected" and when my cellphone rings the radio goes to silent, the ring goes through the radio speakers, and the caller id number displays on the radio display. The phone on and off buttons are on the steering wheel. The best feature is the voice recognition integration which allows me to say "phone: dial name" the british lady says: "name please"...then i can say "mom cell phone" and it dials based on the number I have assigned in the phone directory. Everyone is completely impressed by this feature!! I also enjoy the fact that the forward parking assist has found it's way on to the '06. I love my '06 replacement vehicle!

    :) :) :)
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    Just a lurker here.

    You are a lurker no longer - welcome aboard and thanks for your insight! :)

    tidester, host
  • grommetgrommet Posts: 445
    Curious: Do you miss the seat lumbar adjustment your '05 had? Well, maybe you didn't have it long enough to even notice it disappeared in '06. :)
  • kandgkandg Posts: 53
    It has absolutely nothing to do with starting,idling, or economy. If this new LR motor is like many newer ones, its knock sensor will retard the timing, throttle, or other engine parameters when it detects engine knock to prevent damage to the engine

    Thanks for the insight Serranot and here's my response.

    The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.

    Perhaps i should have been more explicit but i do understand what the rating figure means and how it will affect the performance of a motor. I believe if you look for it, you'll find at least one engineer who will state that the fuel octane requirement listed in a hi-po motor in standard (re: non racing) consumer grade produced motors (such as a sports car etc) has the premium fuel requirement to optimize performance and economy of the engine. They will further state that the knock sensors should compensate when the motor, for lack of a better term, "recognizes" the lower octane. The sales literature usu. says nothing due to the assumption that the consumer will certainly follow the guideline regarding fuel grade.

    What both sources do NOT tell you is the compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. So it follows..higher compression, higher octane/per given engine weight etc.

    My stance on the issue is simply, a lot of motorists will try to "save" a few pennies which i'm sure lately in the states is the norm, by filling up with regular grade fuel instead of premium.

    Now with that bit of information, from personal experience using various octane grades WILL affect the areas of performance and economy although for some not necessarily all areas as listed in my previous post. This isn't in all cars however, (my mx5 na miata obviously will have no advantage using a higher octane but my z32 300zx suffers (hesitation when starting and rough idle) when using lower octane. My e46 bimmers also suffer from using lower octane and have experienced on more than one occasion a very rough ignition using lower octane as an experiment. The problem immediately resolves after flushing the fuel or running it out completely (usu. after 2-3 tanks) and returning to required octane.

    Am i wrong in observing that "retarding timing, throttle and other engine parameters" will not affect the nominal performance aspect of a motor?
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,184
    We have a What about fuel types & gas mileage? discussion you should check out too.

    Steve, Host

    Moderator
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  • I agree with your statement that, generally, a higher compression engine will require a higher octane to prevent pre-ignition.

    However, there is not a production vehicle made that won't idle well on 87 octane gas, assuming it is in a proper state of tune. The compression ratio listed for a vehicle, in this case 10.8 to 1, is the theoretical maximum. When you consider pumping losses and the fact that there is a big throttle plate in the way of the air of a gasoline engine running at idle, you are not going to have the air that's in there compressed anywhere near it's maximum theoretical ratio. If you think about it, a higher octane gas is more resistant to igniting than a lower octane. So I think "rough idle" has zero to do with octane and more to do with some other factor. If there is a petroleum engineer here on the boards, I would like to hear the theory of why higher octane gas would cause the engine to run better. I don't want to insult anybody, but I tend to believe that your autos are starting and idling poorly because of some other factor. I've owned everything from a modern Corvette to a Boxster S, all run a variety of grades, and idling characteristics were the same on any grade of gas.

    Engine knock sensors are like little microphones that hear the noise associated with detonation in order to affect engine parameters. They don't sample the fuel grade in the tank or anything like that. If your cars are detonating at idle, there is something wrong with them that transcends fuel grade. Unless there is detonation, the engine has no clue what's in the tank.

    Now then, I also support using what the manufacturer says to use for grade of fuel. If you are going to pay good money for the vehicle, then you should use the right gas for it and not cheap out.

    Sorry, mods, for getting off-topic. I'm done talking about this on this particular board.

    Regards,
    Tom
  • kandgkandg Posts: 53
    Just a chance for rebuttal:

    For the uninitiated, car engines nowadays contain knock sensors that detect detonation and automatically retard the spark to compensate. For engines that require higher octane levels as specified by the manufacturer, the delay means maximum gas expansion occurs when the piston is farther along in its downstroke and thus there's more room in the cylinder head. Logically, this reduces peak cylinder pressure, eliminating knock but also giving you less power and poorer mileage.

    We might have to agree to disagree on some points. :surprise: Also wanted to clarify that my initial post was centering on this last point regarding the LR owner whose wife apparently was using the non specified fuel in her vehicle which precipitated the whole discussion regarding octane ratings.
  • Well, it's been 4 months and 4000 miles since I got my 05 HSE and so far - NO PROBLEMS. It's been above 90 degrees the whole time, and I fill my tank with premium to almost overflowing each time, and I've not BLOWN-up, smelled gas, or anything..yet.

    Went off-roading yesterday to try out the rear diff lock function - and it all works great - what an amazing "delivery van". I also found out that my $54,000 vehicle is now worth $ 38,000 on trade-in...bummer - looking at new Corvette.. if I traded though, I would have to turn around and buy another LR, a DII, because that is what I really want. As nice as the LR3 is, it does nothing for me emotionally - like my previous Discoveries...
  • Grommet,

    I've seen 06 LR3 V6 premium package with seat lumbar adjustment. I have an early HSE 06 (build july 05) without the lumbar adjustment. Do you think that it is a mistake in the earlier model of the production. I can't imagine why Landrover will remove the lumbar adjustment in 06 model. Maybe to compensate for the bluetooth and the front parking distance addition!!

    Miniland
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,184
    Thanks for the update.

    It's not recommended to top up a gas tank after it clicks off since the vapor recovery system may not be able to handle the fumes. But if your check engine light isn't going off, maybe you're aren't that close to over filling it.

    Steve, Host

    Moderator
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  • Thank you, Steve..Yes, I know what I'm supposed to do - but I've done my fill-ups "my way" for 38 years, on 34 different vehicles, and never experienced any problems. I usually "burp" my tanks and fill until I can actually see fuel in the filler neck..probably a bad idea !

    I did my first oil change last night at 3750 miles - what a major PAIN. The LR oil filter at the dealer was to cost me $ 26.95 but I raised so much hell the parts manager decided to let me have it for $ 16.77 to get my loud mouth out the door. You also have to buy a new oilpan drain plug for 4 bucks - they now have an integrated rubber oil seal built in - what was wrong with a 10 cent washer ?

    The skid plates are heavy and near impossibel to remove and reinstall while flat on your back in the dirt..be sure the vehicle is fully raised also or it's even more difficult.

    The oil shoots out towards the front about 3 feet, so be careful there , and it's 8 quarts. The filter is also near impossible to get to because of the oil cooler lines - another major fubar..Next time I'll pay whatever the cost and let the dealer do it so I don't have to sweat for 2 hours..good thing is that all "scheduled" services are free - but I never go more than 3750 miles on any oil, even the fully synthetic I use in my Toyota Truck.

    Happy rovering to you all - and good luck to those of you having problems..
  • grommetgrommet Posts: 445
    Are you sure it was a '06? There were late year '05 V6 SE/Premiums. It'ver very odd they removed the lumbar support adjustment. I didn't drive the vehicle, but I did sit in it and the feel is different to what I'm used to now... and I'm sure it will cause comfort issues with some people. Stupid. Maybe they don't care they'll lose a sale or two.

    As is typical for Land Rover, they get the owner's guide wrong, too... the North America '06 guide documents "electric" lumbar controls, like the Range Rove Sport has. Too bad none of the LR3s have them. :mad:

    Having PTI/Bluetooth forced on you and getting Front PDC (HSE only) is no compensation in '06, since they charge you for those features. :P
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,184
    Heh, I've been known to shake the car and burp my tank now and then. ;)

    I got my license in '67 so it looks like both of us are "of an age." I drove some family rides until '73, and have only had ~12 cars since '73 (and two of those I rarely drove). I started doing my own oil changes on my '74 CJ-5; it was simple since it was easy to crawl under and the skid plates weren't in the way.

    $27 for an oil filter is nuts! Actually $16.77 is a bit out there. I've been on 5 or 7,500 mile oil change intervals since the early 90's and paying that much for filters would really cramp my frugal nature.

    I suppose a Futomo valve could help the shooting oil issue if you don't off-road a lot, but it wouldn't help the filter issue.

    Enjoy the ride!

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  • mac24mac24 Posts: 3,910
    Just as a point of interest, Wix (generally regarded as a quality manufacturer and OE supplier) list an oil filter for the LR3 here, and Rock Auto sell it for $5.51 here.

    Warranty coverage can't be denied for the use of non-OE parts unless they can be proved to be the cause of the problem. Likewise, you can do your own servicing without worry on the same basis.
  • Thanks a lot "mac24" - that looks like the right filter. Dealer told me it costs so much because it's a "Jaguar engine"...they also told me I could not get it at the "auto-parts store"..yeah, right.

    I'm taking the LR3 in Tuesday to get that horrible steering wheel noise fixed - it sound like opening an old door in a spook house..other than that, it's still perfect. I did notice however that the steering feels "loose" and makes severe clunking noises when you go over very rough, rocky ground off-road. And when the HDC kicks in, it sounds like you are inside of a rock crusher. But it all works...

    Yep, "Host", we are getting to be very mature dogs..keep up the great site !!
  • I know that when the new 6.0 Powerstroke diesel came out for Ford you could not get the oil filter anywhere. Ford dealers were charging 50 plus dollars for a single filter. It was several months before the filters hit the aftermarket and the price dropped to like 15 or so dollars shop cost. We sold the filters for 20 something dollars.

    I am sure the same thing happend with the LR3. I know the original filters for the AJV8 Jag motor have been avaliable on the aftermarket for a while but I am pretty sure the Jag filter is not the same as the filter used on the LR3.
  • I had a similar noise from my steering wheel. The dealer replaced the SRS Coupler Assembly and the noise is gone.
  • mark156mark156 Posts: 1,992
    Koesler, you and Steve are a little ahead of me as I got my license in 1974. I used to change my oil myself years ago but it's too much of a hassle.

    One thing I don't understand....why would you change synthetic oil before it's time? If you like changing oil so often, why not just put regular oil in and save the cost of the synthetic. Seems like the synthetic oil is being wasted here.

    Here in California, the gas nozzles are made where over-flow gas will be drained back in the under ground tank so that it's not spilled on the ground. The meter still runs for gas that you have put back to be re-sold. Just because you have done things for 38 years one way, doesn't mean it's right. :P

    Mark :D
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,184
    Hmmm, I may have to ask around for some neighbors who use synthetic and change every 3,000 miles. I could change their oil and recycle it into my rides.

    The other problem when you don't change it yourself is knowing what oil the dealer or lube place actually put in. Most dealers buy bulk oil by the 55 gallon barrel and many of them reportedly use 10W30 for every vehicle, no matter what the manufacturer recommends. Enough people may be on to that issue now though.

    Guess I should post the oil wars links for those wanting some weekend reading:

    Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

    Synthetic motor oil

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  • I have an LR3 and the exact problem! It was also in the shop for 2 weeks and after we picked it up it died 100 yards away from the dealer. They said it was all set and rebooted the computer and we took it. It has diied again and more recently LR3(Christine) refuses to start or turn over, has been towed twice to he dealer, the key fobs, stoopped working twicee and we could not get in the car, the sun roof would not close whin it got wet, the rear wiper stopped working, the seat belt came off in our hands, and more recently the up and down of the car stopped working as well as the front shocks. The dealer and land rover North america says the car is fine. I have not even had this car 1 year and I have had more problems than all my cars ever owned together!
    Oh I gorgot, it still dies and when it wants to on the highway, they said it was a faulty fuel pump, now I am told it is a faulty ground.
    Anyone else have these problems???
    This model should be recalled!!!!!

    They definitely have a problem with this model and for some reason refuse to admit it, and all owners have to wait on hold for customer service to do nothing!
    :lemon:
  • Does anyone know if it's at all possible to retro fit the LR3 navigation system? I have an 05 HSE with a big hole where it should (or I'd like it to) be - though it has most of the other upgrades. Do LR use standard wiring looms & if so could the wiring for it already be there? I've asked LR but the response isn't consistent, I'd really rather not have to fit a 3rd party solution unless it fits in seemlessly.
  • The reason I change my synthetic oil at 3750 miles in my Toyota Tacoma 4x4 is because my 1990 Toyota 4x4 Truck, which had it's oil & filter changed every 3000 miles with Castrol 10W-40, was so full of sludge at 150,000 miles that the engine had 0 psi oil pressure. It cost me $1000 to have the engine stripped down and all the sludge cleaned out. So now I'm using synthetic on the new truck and I change every 3750 miles. I will pull the oilpan at 100K to see what is happening inside.

    I use regular 5W-30 Castrol in the LR3, again with a 3750 mile change interval. Oil is cheap...comparatively speaking...
  • HSE LR3's are supposed to be standard with Navigation so you either have an SE model or you need to go talk to your dealership and see what is up.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,184
    The late '90's Siennas are prone to sludge/gel too. Toyota really stuck their foot in it when they initially blamed owners for the problem.

    You don't have to wait to pull the pan though to see how your oil and engine are doing; you can get your oil analyzed for around ten bucks.

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  • grommetgrommet Posts: 445
    And, ignoring that, you really can't retrofit a factory Navigation system into a non-Navigation vehicle. There is a reason it's a factory option. It's not supported and (as with most attempts like this) would be cost prohibitive in numerous ways.
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