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Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,047
    ..."Yes, I would agree. I did the numbers on both the Jetta and the Honda Civics. It would be hard for me to be parochial, I have both the TDI Jetta and the Honda Civic gasser. The reason for me not getting the hybrid was the difference in sales price between a Civic gasser and hybrid. The other reason was the 250,000 mile and above mileage and time horizon. There is almost no way to break even between a hybrid Civic and a gasser Civic in the normal time and mileage. The chances of major repair and higher maintenance repair dollars is far greater with the hybrid than the Honda Civic gasser.

      

    I think the main difference between the two is you do not have to monitor the TDI as much as you do the hybrid or even the gasser. So if you drive either the hybrid or the Jetta TDI going 55-65 mph they both get just super mileage.

      

    Both have been flawless one for 47,000 miles and the other for 5,000 miles."...

     

    There is also a vast quality difference between the Civic (S) and the Jetta TDI. While one can argue the merits of the difference between a 12,500 dollar Honda against the 18,000 dollar Jetta TDI, or even the 20,000 dollar Honda Civic Hybrid, one has to ask is the 20,000 dollar Civic hybrid, which for discussion purposes is different in engine and drive train combination from the Honda gasser Civic: is in fact 7500 dollars better in quality?? I personally know the (buying) answer for me. The first hoop is 12,500 Civic rated at 29/38 mpg vs 20,000 hybrid rated at 47/48 mpg or 7500 dollars. The projected BE given rated mileages is app 450,000 -500,000 miles.

     

    Also, I think the results indicate that Honda has done a better job in marketing and selling lower (but perceived higher) quality and reliability than VW has done in marketing and selling higher quality. :( :) An obvious issue with VW is the higher percentage (%) of "higher" quality vehicles having PITA little and major things going wrong.
  • I disagree. If you look at http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/manufacturers.htm you can see that Honda has a much better reliability (lack of complaints) than Volkswagen.

     

    troy
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    you can see that Honda has a much better reliability (lack of complaints) than Volkswagen

     

    Maybe VW drivers are more demanding and expect more from their driving machines. I see an awful lot of complaints here on Edmund's concerning rattles and squeaks from the Accord. Yet they never seem to show up on these so called consumer reports. Maybe Honda has a better PR department. Where does JD Powers & Consumer Reports get this information. Of the 20-30 new vehicles I have bought, I was never contacted by either company. I could have given them an earful on several new cars.
  • This is a testimonial study, which usually are not statistically accurate. Consumer Reports is better but it is still not statistically accurate especially on newer car years. NTSA is better, but it is still not measuring the exact metric of reliability. Even better, is J.D. Powers, but again it looks at initial quality. The only way to get a truly accurate assessment is for a third party to be engaged and select a statistically valid sample of the entire automotive universe. This is easier said than done becuase it is costly and there are so many variables and external conditions that cannot be controlled.

     

    Thanks,

     MidCow
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    VW has a worse reputation for a reason:

     

    Their cars break down more often.

     

    It's as simple as that - nothing about "VW drivers expecting more" yada yada yada. It's the fact that the VW cars break down more often.
  • Is anybody waiting for the Brand New 2005 Jetta ( announced at the recent LA Autoshow) that will be available in March 2005 ?

     

    Thanks,

     

    MidCow
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,914
    Folks in our 2006 Jetta discussion are! There's been some confusion about whether the model year would be 05 or 06, but if you're talking about the re-design, that's the place.

     

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,047
    I am not sure what you are disagreeing with!? I have pretty much said (and reiterate) that Honda has a better reliability rate and record than VW.

     

    Or another way of saying it : VW statistically has a higher rate of % of cars that have defects. What that is precisely neither (or any other OEM will cop to) So while my VW Jetta TDI is a baby at 47,000 miles and has been flawless, am I to think when it is good it is really good?

     

    I think for me the long term verdict remains out until the 250,000 to 500,000 to my goal of 1,000,000 mile range. But then, it will be pretty hard to compare Honda vs VW, since there is a decided lack of Honda's that get into this category, so really a comparison might be rather moot!? I think we can take a cue from the Japanese who consider their Honda engines OVER the HILL at 35-50,000 miles!!??

     

    A lot of folks here have also said when it is bad: it is REALLY bad. But if you look at Honda's and Honda threads, there are a lot of folks posting their problems, almost in shock and apologetic!!??! Contrast that with VW posters post almost EXPECTING trouble and they are comforted by the fact that it happened to them!!?? i.e. the pre warming: I told you so: being at work here:( :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,047
    Yes, I think this phenomenon is very true. I have been contacted by JD Powers for several vehicles and when I was a member of Consumer Reports; by Consumer Reports. The "test or survey forms" are identical for each vehicle.

     

    The amount of test validity is propriety, as is the validity of comparing one product against another. So I can not quantify how the differences and similarities are codified.
  • VW drivers expecting more is all nonsense. VWs have been clearly more unreliable, and for this reason have been losing market share in the US, and profitability all over the world.

     

    Even of you see the Edmunds forums, the Accord will have problems like rattles, while as the PAssat has far more serious problems (apart from the coil issue) including valve train issues. This has been recognized by CR and reflects in their latest report.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    VW drivers expecting more is all nonsense. VWs have been clearly more unreliable, and for this reason have been losing market share in the US, and profitability all over the world.

     

    First it is difficult to prove any of your allegations on the VW and specifically the Jetta TDI. I give so little credence to CR and JD Powers that they would be the last source I would check with before buying a vehicle.

     

    I think you have the best source overall sitting in front of you with the Edmund's forum. If you do a diligent search I think you will find that both the Jetta TDI and HCH are very close to equal on reliability. Neither is perfect. Most owners love their cars. To me it makes it a difficult decision. The only weight that the TDI has over the HCH is longevity. The HCH just does not have the years or miles to back up the claims of long term reliability. Plus you can get the Jetta TDI in a very nice wagon that actually gets better mileage than the sedan.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"If you do a diligent search I think you will find that both the Jetta TDI and HCH are very close to equal on reliability."-end quote

     

    The "Civic Hybrid" is too new to get data that means anything at this point, true.

     

    But the HCH is a CIVIC - so CIVIC data is perfectly acceptable as a guide of reliability. And the Civic has traditionally been a very high scoring car in EVERY rating system created.

     

    And the Jetta has been LESS RELIABLE than the Civic - that is indisputable.

     

    The only way to really get good data is to look at 2003 Jetta TDI data and at 2003 Civic Hybrid data after 3 and 4 years of ownership, which right now is not possible.

     

    But the "Civic versus the Jetta" debate CLEARLY goes to the Civic.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,047
    I think if what you are saying is true with out regard to the rate, I clearly should not have gotten one or the other make and model.

     

    Or, if this adversarial tone on this thread is to be believe I am 50% incorrect! :( :) In my case it is not true!! At the three and 4 year mark if folks are interested, I can give a take, but right now on a 2 year (24 mo) VW Jetta TDI vs less than one year take (4mo)Honda Civic 4 gasser take, both are flawless. If you were to weight the time and mileage frame, right now the advantage would go to VW 24 mo vs 4 mo, 47,000 miles vs 5,000 miles.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    But the "Civic versus the Jetta" debate CLEARLY goes to the Civic.

     

    I think you probably believe that. I am sure others share your belief. I for one do not. I have scoured this board for owners of the VW TDI vehicles and have not gotten the negative response from owners as I have from non owners. Which tells me that some of the gripes about the Jetta are sour grapes. The Jetta TDI is better handling, better braking, and safer according to all indicators than the Civic. I guess the only unknown is the Civic hybrid drive train. Will it give the 10 years and 150k miles of trouble free service? Only time will tell.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    "Maybe VW drivers are more demanding and expect more from their driving machines"

    "Maybe Honda has a better PR department."

    "Where does JD Powers & Consumer Reports get this information."

     

    Just when you thought you've heard it all,

     

    Now we know that Volkswagens are known for reliability, but they only break down because the drivers are demanding more from them and it's only that Honda has better PR.

     

    Never mind JD Powers and consumer reports and the thousands of VW problematic links in google databases.

    All the problems worse than a rattle are caused by Demanding drivers.

    Some here claim that Jetta TDI has sports car performance.

    Really? Should I buy a TDI over an HCH because of its sports car attributes?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,047
    I do not think he is saying that at all! But surely you have twisted it around to say it!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"I think you probably believe that. I am sure others share your belief. I for one do not."-end quote

     

    It's not a BELIEF, its a FACT. It's not an opinion, it's based on years of watching reviews and keeping up with car information.

     

    Name me ONE SINGLE PUBLISHED DOCUMENT that shows the Jetta TDI is more reliable than the Civic, and I will bow to your superior knowledge.

     

    ( There will be no naming, because there is NOT ONE. )

     

    And anyone who disputes JD Power and Consumer Reports because of "bias" or any other nonsense is just not dealing in reality. That data is compiled from REAL OWNERS with REAL PROBLEMS with CARS THEY OWN.

     

    How can that be biased, or incorrect, in any way?

     

    This 2003 study, which measures problems reported by original owners of 2000 model-year vehicles at three years of ownership:

    Brand Problems Per 100

    Porsche 103

    Toyota 196

    Honda 215

    Nissan 258

    BMW 262

    GM 264

    Subaru 266

    AVERAGE 273

    Ford 287

    DaimlerChrysler 311

    Mitsubishi 339

    Hyundai 342

    Isuzu 368

    VW 378

    Suzuki 403

    Daewoo 421

    Kia 509

     

    Another, at the end of a 2005 Jetta review: "Competition in the subcompact class, the Honda Civic continues to be the car to beat with a wide range of bodystyles, engines, and equipment. Ford's Focus is also a Best Buy, and though it doesn't offer the refinement of the Civic, it doesn't cost as much either."

     

    "Significant engine problems" in 1999-2001 Jettas according to MSN Autos.

     

    The list goes ON and ON.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    it's based on years of watching reviews

     

    Ok here are some figures that are easy for you to check out. This is for year 2003 as you requested. There are 73 reviews of Jetta TDI cars. The overall average is 9.1. There are 33 reviews for the Civic Hybrid with an average of 9.0. One of the things overlooked in this debate is the fact that the TDIs are made in Germany. The gas versions are made elsewhere. If you read the reviews you will find about the same amount of little problems with the HCH as the Jetta TDI. What you won't see much of is people driving the HCH that claim it is the most fun they have had driving a car. Many will say that about the Jetta TDI. As you have shown with your printout you can make statistics say what you want them to say. It is more difficult to get actual owners to subvert the truth. They call them as they see them.

     

    The only conclusion that can be drawn from this research is that 2003 Jetta TDI owners are much happier with their purchase than 2003 HCH owners.

     

    HCH:

    Review: I am happy with the vehicle. But, when I was exploring which one of my cars to sell, I was extremely disappointed in the resale value.

     

    Review: I am just a little disappointed in the MPG as my Civic Hybrid is only averaging about 40.9 (calculated). I purchase the car new in 06/2002 and now have 33,400 miles on the car.

     

    Review: I bought this car thinking I could save a bit of money with it's great fuel economy. However, I found out later that every 10,000 miles it needs a $100.00 maintenance fee with an expensive oil change in between. Gone are my hypothetical savings. Not worth what I expected to get out of it.


     

    Jetta TDI:

    Review: After waiting for almost 4 months it finally arrived last December. 13000 m on the o. now. Getting 53-56 miles per gallon.

     

    Review: Other than having the AC not work after delivery in March this Car has been flawless just like my 2000 which I still own.The perfect car for someone that spends a lot of time on the road and wants to do it in a comfortable and cost efficient matter.My 2000 Sdn.has 120,000 miles on it and my 2003 Wgn. has 4,000 miles on it. What more can I say.The Jetta is the most underrated Car.

     

    Review: I love my Jetta! The Jetta is fun to drive, has excellent fuel economy, (44- 51 mpg, up to 700 miles/tank) is good looking, and reliable. I have personally driven this vehicle about 5000 miles, and I am impressed with the precision in the steering, along with the overall maneuverability.

     

    Review: I LOVE my TDI wagon! It is zippy and gets 50 mpg. I have never had a mechanical problem with it. We use biodiesel fuel and reduce our emissions considerably, making it an environmentally sound choice. I feel very safe driving it with the extra airbags and safety features. Would buy it again in an instant and intend to keep it for years to come.

     

    Review: I love this car!!! It is so fun and nice to drive comfortable for 5 min or 5 hours!! I Love to fuel mileage, 42 to 53 mpg! Great handling on back roads and highway. Quite interior.Great radio sound. Never seems to run out of power and It just looks great. I really love my car in case you can't tell.


     

    Read the rest for your self you will see that JD powers and CR have missed the mark. Who pays them for all that fancy testing and statistics anyway? Or are they doing it for fun?
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    Anyone that thinks reliable=better has a very narrow view of what a vehicle should deliver to its owner. And PLEASE do not confuse quality with reliable. (VW is obviously better quality than most Asian vehicles... If one cannot see that, then they have littl concept materials and workmanship)

     

    All vehicles have their problems and I agree that VW does not do as well as Honda at 'covering up' perceved issues. A dealer that goes out of his way to willingly fix any and all complaints makes the car SEEM better. Most VW dealers do not tend to be this willing thus VWs suffer the concequences when the pollsters show up. I know, I have owned both Honda and VW.

     

    For me, reliability is less important than a rust-free body for at least 10 years. VW has Honda beat hands-down at this contest. Plus the TDI has a 600,000 mile life expectancy while the batteries in a hybred are considerd HAZZARDOUS WASTE and will never last even 200,000 miles.

     

    The TDI can travel at highways speeds for hours on end while still delivering about 55 MPG. Try that with a hybred.

     

    I receintly retruned from a 80 hour trip from Vermont-to-Colorado-and-back where the engine never had a chance to cool down. We rotated thru 3 drivers for over 4000 miles. If I owned a Hybred, I would have had to rent a car because it would have been a cruel trip for all 4 passengers in a hybred.

     

    The TDI is a REAL CAR and the hybred is a toy which will be out of vogue in a few years.

     

    Who would want to purchase a used hybred with the spector of replacing the expensive batteries and pay to get rid of the hazzardous waste? On the other hand, TDIs are in extremely high demand and maintain their value because they last and last. (Both the engine and the body)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,047
    I can tell you for sure that neither JD Powers nor Consumer Reports have any room for "fun"
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    Who would want to purchase a used hybrid with the spector of replacing the expensive batteries and pay to get rid of the hazardous waste? On the other hand, TDIs are in extremely high demand and maintain their value because they last and last. (Both the engine and the body)

     

    That is the kind of testimonial that trumps all the figures that CR and JD Powers put out. I think hybrid owners that are selling right now are finding out just how fast they lose their value. I would love to see figures on used Hybrids that have ACTUALLY sold and the price paid. I tracked a few and most did not bring close to what was asked. Anyone have a site that tracks the selling price of used vehicles?
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    Reviews work both ways.

    Here are a few I've found contrary:

    HCH Reviews

    "I traded in my 2003 Volkswagen Golf diesel (42/49 mpg) for a 2005 Civic Hybrid. I will miss my Golf but will not miss smelly, smokey, less eco-friendly diesel fuel and multiple expensive trips to the dealer for all sorts of issues. Let's put it this way... I could have replaced Minute Made as the top lemonade producer in the world.

    There is absolutely nothing I am unimpressed with. Quite the opposite, from the beautiful color to the automatic A/C, I love everything about this car. Acceleration is almost idenitical to my Golf and EPA fuel economy ratings are better! Well you guys already knew all that...Proud to be a Civic Hybrid owner!

    As for VW, I am mostly disappointed with the service I recieved from ALL dealers in this area, and VW of America. It was abysmal. Routine maintenance is much more expensive than the Honda. They took weeks to make warranty repairs. I also had a couple out-of-warranty repairs that cost me a bundle. It was just time to make the trade... glad I did!"

    -John

    "I can HIGHLY recommend the HCH. After 17K miles and 9 months, I'm averaging 47 MPG and just love this car. It's a kick to drive, very very deceptively fast (no auto tranny shift, just smooth acceleration). Very comfortable on long trips (3200 miles total to and from the Oregon Coast). I love the styling. Love my HCH!"

    -David Hagen

    "Pros: Excellent car. This is my second HCH. My first is a 2003. Traded my VW Passat in for this car. Definitely will save me money in gas. Also, My state has a 3000 tax credit on the vehicle!!!

    Cons: NOthing yet

    Overall Review: Have bought again, and will trade my 2003 in on a 2006"

    -MSN dot com

    "Over 30,000 miles on my HCH since buying new in April. I commute 200 miles a day, so I reap the benefits of HALF my monthly gasoline bill!

    Great little car. I've driven cross country with my 2 teen kids with no complaints. So far, no problems(it's a Honda, afterall). I easily keep up with traffic @75mph, and it has good passing ability."

    -Yahoo

    Jetta TDI Reviews

    "A disaster of a car. Problems have included: new clutch, discharging batteries, coolant lossesand most distastrously, wiring loom burnt out. Do nt buy a VW.

    Completely unreliable with poor service and exorbitant prices at VW main dealers"

    -Carreview

    "Nice power with lots of compliments. Reliability was a HUGE problem. only owned it for a year and a half. in the shop every 2 months, when they finally penciled me in to their already hectic schedule. radio failed twice. i had to drive around without a radio for months at a time. engine failed twice. they never called me back for the second installation of the engine coils. etc, etc, etc. service sucked big time, probably due to the fact that so many jetta's and golf's are breaking down all the time."

    i gave up and traded in for a Honda.

    -Autoweb (Lycos)

    I bought my TDI about a Year and a half ago. Imagine my dismay when only 6 days after purchasing the car the brake light swith went out and I was left stranded with no way to get to work. So of course I called VW Roadside Service only to be informed that there was nothing they could do for me.

    The guy that towed my car told me it was his third VW that week with the exact same problem.

    Since then it has happened twice more. When I contacted VW Customer Service about this they told me that they had never heard of the problem. My friend has a '03 Jetta TDI and this same problem had occurred on her vehicle 5 times!! Finally they admitted that it was a problem. I have called customer service each time this has happened, each time I'm told that since I'm out of warranty I'm "basically screwed," yes, exact words. Now my right turn signal continuously burns out, I've had it replaced 3 times, my middle breaklight only works sometimes, I run out of windshield washer fluid about once every 2 weeks from a mysterious leak that no one can find, my airbag light has been on since about 3 months after purchasing, my cruise control doesn't even turn on let alone function, my heated mirrors only work when they want to, and the crappy Continental Tires it came with all ended up being defective and had to be replaced a few months ago. Even the VW emblem fell off!!!! I thought I would feel so proud driving a Volkswagen, and to some degree I do, but having to bum rides because the thing is in the shop again and again, it gets really embarassing and it's hard to feel proud of it when everyone knows your car is just a breakdown waiting to happen. I hate to say that I'll never own another Jetta TDI or any Volkswagen, but at the rate this is going a Honda doesn't sound so dull.

    -Carreview

     

    Jetta TDI problems are not insignificant.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    Refer to my last post, can you find any similar serious problems with an HCH?

     

    "Anyone that thinks reliable=better has a very narrow view of what a vehicle should deliver to its owner"

    A reliable car is indeed better than an unreliable one.

     

    "the batteries in a hybred are considerd HAZZARDOUS WASTE and will never last even 200,000 miles"

    Nimh batteries are not hazardous waste and can be discarded in a landfill...but much better to recycle them.

    Hybrid batteries have exceeded 200K miles, according to taxi cab drivers who drive them.

     

    "The TDI can travel at highways speeds for hours on end while still delivering about 55 MPG. Try that with a hybred"

    Hours on end means nothing. My average MPG last year is over 58MPG.

     

    "it would have been a cruel trip for all 4 passengers in a hybred"

    Not sure what you mean. If I were to drive 80 hours straight with over 2 passengers I'd take the van, even if I had a TDI.

     

    "The TDI is a REAL CAR and the hybred is a toy which will be out of vogue in a few years"

    Not sure where you sources are.

    New hybrid models are emerging, especially lately.

     

    "Who would want to purchase a used hybred with the spector of replacing the expensive batteries and pay to get rid of the hazzardous waste?"

    Once again, they are not haxardous waste.

    Perhaps you are referring to the battery in your VW?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    I did not look further than Edmund's. Here is a good testimonial for Honda reliability. Don't buy an HCH unless you live close to a good dealer.

     

    I just purchased a new 2004 with 157 miles on it. I drive 64 miles each way to work from a river ranch 1 1/2 miles to a two lane highway along the river through hills. At about 600 miles I started seeing the red battery light come on during the first half hour, but not before 10 minutes into the trip, so vehicle was completely warm. I drive in the dark and window defrost and high beams are on. I have to stop to open and close a gate the first 500 yds. I first noticed the light when entering the highway. It stays on a second or two and then did not come on after that. The dealer told me it is a problem, but he can't find the problem. This concerns me, because the warranty will last me only 1 year on the car and 2.5 years on the IMA. After that I am paying for that time to look for the problem. I have a 100 mile round trip to the nearest Service facility. I am not happy with this car for this reason alone. I feel the cost of repairs will outweigh any fuel savings in the future. Anybody else experience similar problems?

     

    You got that right mauto. I wish I could have read your message before I purchased mine. To all those who think Honda will do the right thing, think again. They are putting me through hell.


     

    lapdogman, "Honda Civic Hybrid" #962, 19 Nov 2004 2:59 pm

     

    lapdogman, "Honda Civic Hybrid" #976, 28 Nov 2004 6:14 pm
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,914
    That's going to be an issue regardless of what vehicle one purchases. If anything goes wrong and you live 100+ miles from the nearest service center, it's a major hassle. All cars have problems.

     

    Also, no where in that anecdote does the member state that he wishes he'd purchased a Jetta TDI instead - for all we know, he could live miles from any shop!

     

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  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"Don't buy an HCH unless you live close to a good dealer."-end quote

     

    I hope Gary does not believe that to be true ONLY for the HCH. ANY CAR BUILT TODAY can have a problem that requires a dealer. ALL MODERN CARS are technology laden and require special care - this is not a HYBRID phenomenon NOR is it NEW.

     

    OK, here's the problem with the "my car is great" and "my car sucks" testimonial comparisons:

     

    That sort of thing can be found ABOUT ANY CAR BUILT IN THE RECENT HISTORY OF MAN.

     

    There are ALWAYS owners who are upset and feel robbed, and there are always owners who think their car is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

     

    Conclusions CANNOT BE DRAWN from INDIVIDUAL CASES.

     

    As you have shown on this thread in the last few posts, ANYONE can find GOOD things about a car, and ANYONE can find BAD things about that same car.

     

    I repeat: Conclusions may not be drawn from these individual cases. If so, a person who reads a BAD REVIEW would elminate that car. Then if they were shown a GOOD REVIEW, they would again want to buy the car. You see how that cannot work to draw proper conclusions?

     

    *THAT IS WHY THERE ARE AGENCIES LIKE Consumer Reports and JD Power WHO DO VAST AMOUNTS OF DATA COLLECTION AND PRESENT IT FOR OUR CONSUMPTION.*

     

    And By gosh, WHO CARES who is paying them? They are not LYING about the cars !! They are reporting ACTUAL OWNER PROBLEMS and basing ratings on those problems. IT'S NOT GUESSING - IT'S NOT ESTIMATION - IT'S FACT, based on REAL OWNERS with REAL PROBLEMS.

     

    You take 10,000 owner reports and you base conclusions on the data. That's normal scientific method.

     

    So sure, we can all find bad HCH complaints and a lot MORE bad Jetta TDI complaints on the web. But that really tells us NOTHING that can be used to draw a conclusion.

     

    What CAN be used to draw a logical conclusion is a compilation of reports from THOUSANDS of owners. That's what CR and JDP give us. Since they use the largest statistical base, THEY Are the ones whose data can be trusted.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    THAT IS WHY THERE ARE AGENCIES LIKE Consumer Reports and JD Power WHO DO VAST AMOUNTS OF DATA COLLECTION AND PRESENT IT FOR OUR CONSUMPTION.*

     

    As long as you trust CR here is what they have to say about the HCH.

     

    Consumer Reports has found that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets -- the Civic Hybrid averaging 26 mpg in the city, the Toyota Prius 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Highway mileage is typically closer to EPA estimates.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,047
    I am glad you agree with me on the RATE!

     

    So if you disagree that conclusions can not be drawn with ANY INDIVIDUAL cases, then how can you draw conclusions about the vast data collection and say that Honda or VW is either bad or good??

     

    ..."What CAN be used to draw a logical conclusion is a compilation of reports from THOUSANDS of owners. That's what CR and JDP give us. Since they use the largest statistical base, THEY Are the ones whose data can be trusted. "...

     

    You have just denied the validity of a major source of DATA!!?? Then you draw upon the that SAME denied data and say it can be trusted!!???

     

    Again, most cars will be good and that is HONDA AND VW !! Or more technically run the statistical gambit in its bell shaped curve.

     

    I can see why you WAX on and on. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method. I am ok with your individual biases, but to say your individual biases are supported by the "VALID" data when you draw the conclusions from data you say is invalid is disingenuous at best.

     

    This is not to say that there is no "buyer beware" utility. Neither Honda or VW (nor any other OEM) will cop to its actual rates. Instead they gather real and perceptual data from sources like JD Powers and Consumer Reports.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"Consumer Reports has found that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets -- the Civic Hybrid averaging 26 mpg in the city, the Toyota Prius 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Highway mileage is typically closer to EPA estimates."-end quote

     

    That indicates the BEAUTY of the Hybrid Powertrain - it gives owners the CAPABILITY to do much better than any published test !!

     

    My "lifetime" MPG on my HCH was 34.4 when I bought the car. In about 8,000 miles of driving, the "lifetime" MPG for the car is now at 42.0 MPG. My personal MPG for the 8,000 miles is sitting at 47.3 MPG.

     

    My current tank is 56.0 MPG after 345 miles, and my tank is STILL HALF FULL ! I'm shooting for my first 700 Mile Tank, in the middle of Winter.

     

    Amazing Technology !!!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote ruking1-"I can see why you WAX on and on. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method."-end quote

     

    Acutally, I completely understand the scientific method which indicates that a conclusion cannot be drawn from one single test. It requires multiple data points to come to a data-driven result.

     

    That's why human drug testing uses DOZENS of people, and not just one person.
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