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Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    What CAN be used to draw a logical conclusion is a compilation of reports from THOUSANDS of owners. That's what CR and JDP give us. Since they use the largest statistical base, THEY Are the ones whose data can be trusted.

     

    It is a tool that can be used. Just as the EPA & IIHS for safety. All I pointed out is what people are saying on Edmund's about the two cars we are debating. I went on Google and there are lots of stories and complaints on everything. The conclusion I would draw from that is that the complaints & issues are overblown on both cars. The one thing that does stand out for me is the dealers are the key. VW dealers are less responsive than Honda dealers as a whole. The other over riding conclusion that I get is that owners of both the Jetta TDI & HCH are happy with their cars. For me the choice of a Wagon is very high on my list of wants. The flexibility of diesel and biodiesel is another important plus. I would say for someone that needs a good commuter/family sedan, the HCH is a good choice.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,057
    As you wax ON:

     

    ..."Acutally, I completely understand the scientific method which indicates that a conclusion cannot be drawn from one single test. It requires multiple data points to come to a data-driven result.

      

    That's why human drug testing uses DOZENS of people, and not just one person. "...

     

    Again, if you have forgotten even you (and me for sure) are talking of RATE!!!??? So for example the fleet of manufactured Civics, Jetta's etc that say hit N America!!???
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    As with any other car, how you drive is important. "I've been driving a Honda Civic Hybrid car in the Washington, DC area for a year ... and my gas mileage is averaging 47 to 50 MPG," one reader told us. We'll bet he doesn't speed away from lights and aggressively race other cars to gain some imaginary advantage.

    If you add up the much higher cost of a hybrid over a similar small car, you'll be hard-pressed to find any overall savings. The most fuel-efficient car available today is the VW Jetta Diesel. It really does get 45 miles per gallon, costs a lot less than a hybrid, is much simpler and should therefore be much more reliable.

     

    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/newsletters/20040517.html
  • john500john500 Posts: 409
    *THAT IS WHY THERE ARE AGENCIES LIKE Consumer Reports and JD Power WHO DO VAST AMOUNTS OF DATA COLLECTION AND PRESENT IT FOR OUR CONSUMPTION.*

      

    This year will be a good test for Consumer Reports. Both the Odyssey and the Accord have had major recalls in 2004. If you don't see a black mark in any of the categories, then you might take Consumers Reports with a grain of salt or redefine what a "problem" is.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,914
    OK, yet again, we've managed to beat a conversation to death - either you believe in CR and JDP or you don't. Agree to disagree. Move on.

     

    And cut out the personal comments and SHOUTING, now.

     

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,057
    Yes, I think the utility of all this data collection is to: market better, quality control, etc. From a buyer or consumers perspective, to product select better.

     

    For me, CR and or JDP's etc are TOOLs in product selection of the many that are out there both products and tools. So for example, using a Hybrid Honda Civic, Honda Civic gasser, VW TDI, you can analyze seemingly dissimilar products and weighting them as one sees fit. So for example, if one absolutely has to make a statement as to having to have the one that so called pollutes the least, or ANY parameters for that matter and is willing to pay for it, (through the nose, but that that is my personal take) why should he/she not be able to do it???
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    "And cut out the personal comments and SHOUTING, now. "

     

    I have said before, others may use CAPS for shouting, but I use it in the "normal grammatical manner" meaning to place EMPHASIS.

     

    I don't shout.....:)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,057
    There is a VC supported start up company (Nanostellar) in Menlo Park, CA that is working on a Nanotechnology application: to at least half the cost of a typical platinum catalytic converter (100-300 oem cost)(by eventually substituting lower cost nano materials) and more interestingly, to improve on platinums emissions-reducing qualities, by reducing the amount of nitrious oxides not currently removed by platinium based catalytic converters.

     

    SJMN, Wed, Jan 19,2005, "BusinessBriefing" pg 2c."Cleaning up cars at atomic level."

     

    My take is it bodes well for both hybrids, gassers and diesels.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote john500-"This year will be a good test for Consumer Reports. Both the Odyssey and the Accord have had major recalls in 2004. If you don't see a black mark in any of the categories, then you might take Consumers Reports with a grain of salt or redefine what a "problem" is."-end quote

     

    A recall does not count any more than a single defect, and it shouldn't.

     

    Because a recalled problem is something easily fixable and which will usually not re-occur after the repair due of the original defect.

     

    It's nothing more than something that is wrong and can be repaired.

     

    That is far different from the "serious engine problems" category assigned to 1999-2001 Jetta vehicles.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    Because a recalled problem is something easily fixable and which will usually not re-occur after the repair due of the original defect.

     

    I don't consider a transmission going out in the middle of Kansas a insignificant repair. Or a vehicle catching on fire driving down the Interstate. I think you need to check out these recalls. They are not for insignias falling off the car. Plus Honda is still wrestling with the auto transmission failures to date. Honda has lost a lot of it's glitter and sales recently.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"The most fuel-efficient car available today is the VW Jetta Diesel. It really does get 45 miles per gallon, costs a lot less than a hybrid, is much simpler and should therefore be much more reliable."-end quote

     

    That is the author's opinion - not based on any facts really.

     

    Jetta's depreciate MUCH faster than Civics, they are in the shop more often, and comparing the cleanest USA Jetta TDI and the cleanest USA Civic Hybrid shows the HCH cleaner. AND right now, diesel is about 15-20 cents higher per gallon (and has been for at least 8 months) so it is not less costly to fuel the TDI.

     

    And do not "cost a lot less than a Hybrid" either, unless you overpay for a Prius....
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,057
    And the beat waxes on...

     

    ..."That is the author's opinion - not based on any facts really.

      

    Jetta's depreciate MUCH faster than Civics, they are in the shop more often, and comparing the cleanest USA Jetta TDI and the cleanest USA Civic Hybrid shows the HCH cleaner. AND right now, diesel is about 15-20 cents higher per gallon (and has been for at least 8 months) so it is not less costly to fuel the TDI.

      

    And do not "cost a lot less than a Hybrid" either, unless you overpay for a Prius.... "...

     

    Well, I guess a significant to all TDI owners can be lying. The same can be inferred about Honda Hybrid owners? So why is it that JDP or CR dont strap these scofflaw data points to a polygraph to control for this horid variable!? Maybe there is a secret oath you have to swear if you get a TDI/Hybrid?

     

    So let us drift back to reality.

     

    1. 45 mpg is super easy to achieve on a TDI

     

    2. In fact my 2003 TDI sells for more with 47,000 used than when new.

     

    3. Honda is probably one of the least depreciating vehicles at 5% or so per year (-600 to -925 per year), the last I figured. 4. In the total scheme of things, the emissions of the Hybrids and VW Jetta TDI,separately or even together, approaches total insignificance!
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    Hey guys...we seem to be going all over the map. Let's digress for just a moment...seems like there are 3-4 different threads taking place that would be better served by having separate/dedicated discussions.

     

    Consumer Reports v. JD Powers (any car review can be discussed here)

     

    New technologies to improve emissions

     

    I'll get these discussions going, but if this discussion doesn't stay only on TDI (not diesel technologies) v. Civic Hybrid, it will be closed.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,057
    On point, the fact of the matter is that diesel is at a analogous/similar point in the late 70's when "WE" made the switch from leaded regular to unleaded regular. How well would a hybrid for example run with leaded regular?

     

    The interesting thing is the TDI diesel is capable of running BOTH (and or mixed) the current and the new 2006/2007 low sulfur diesel!

     

    Another moniker diesel fuel wears is of "alternative" fuel. What does this mean in English? This means that no matter what, the gasser hybrid HAS to burn refinery fuel. Where does refinery fuel come from? Well if you believe the enviromentalists: FOREIGN! (app 50%) The other is use of hybrid does not lessen our dependence on "foreign" petroleum products. Contrast that with soybean based diesel fuel grown DOMESTICALLY!??

     

    I will leave it at that for I do not want to encourage another WAXING session.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    going to be limited in where it can be purchased. It will likely be in far fewer locations than even CNG refueling spots for the first few months.

     

    "Clean" diesel was at first available only in one European country, then it slowly spread. It will spread slowly in the USA also, no doubt, because of the diesel stigma we have over here.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,057
    You object to the real world ramp up time, etc.?

     

    So called "Clean" diesel has been and is currently available. The real issue?:mainstream cost!! Biodiesel has/is also available. Again, the real issue?:mainstream cost!!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    wanted clean diesel as soon as I could get it, sure I would object !! Why would I be happy with being forced to WAIT?

     

    Lucky for me I drive a HCH....:)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,057
    Really it is no bother, but in fact it does highlight that government can be a help and a hindrance.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    I've read somewhere in this flurry of posts that you won't get the EPA rating in an HCH, while the TDI gets 45MPG. Period.

     

    Does every Jetta TDI get 45MPG regardless of driving habit or individual machine?

     

    I can't make a claim for every HCH but the database at green hybrid lists 63 HCH's that show an average of 67MPG reported by real owners who drive them. That's EPA rating.

    If the TDI only gets 45MPG that is pretty poor, especially in light of a car with so much built in baggage.

    (No, not luggage but real issues previously discussed here)

     

    When one shops for a new car they need to look at data from multiple sources.

    Auto mags can be paid off(2 years ago my friend found a shining article on Prius. he didn't notice the "Paid Advertisement" in micro print at the end.

     

    You have to look at all sources: all mags, internet sites (Like Edmunds) and what people are reporting.

     

    Lots of sources report hybrids as having less than expected MPG results. Reading only that I'd never have bought one. But then I found some people are getting +100MPG in an Insight rated 61/66MPG and +60MPG in an HCH rated at 47/51.

     

    Something must be good with a technology that can get 165% better than its EPA rating, so I bought it.

    Glad I did, as over the year it ran about 128% over EPA.

     

    Will everyone driving an HCH average +60MPG? NO!

    Most average the EPA of 47.

    Still, I saved over $5000 in fuel alone last year as compared to the car it replaced. ('04 Dodge Spirit)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,057
    High 60's can be gotten out of a TDI. But I would say that the folks who drive the TDI like HCH and vice versa will tend to do better.

     

    While I am glad you have saved 5000 in fuel costs alone over your 04 Dodge Spirit,I am also sure you must also be excited (over the savings between a HCH and a Dodge Spirit)

     

    A more direct analysis of Honda Civic (12,500) vs Honda Civic Hybrid (20,000) indicates a 7500 dollar difference. So even with 47 mpg vs 35-38 mpg (Civic gasser) BE on this comparo is over 300,000 to 500,000 miles.

     

    So if BE is an important weight or measure, this might be an easy comparison.
  • "amazing technology"????? More like... "inconsistent technology". If you drive like a snail you can get +10mpg over the EPA estimates (just like any non-hybrid car), but drive "normal" like everyone else, and your hybrid will be no better than a non-hybrid.

     

    VW vw. Honda quality

     

    It appears that Honda is actually *worse* in flaws. Perhaps Honda has started slacking in their quality assurance, like American carmakers?

     

    VW FLAWS:• Engine Sludge • Ignition Coils • Oil Burning • Engine Fires • Paint

     

    HONDA FLAWS: • Airbags • Brakes • Bumpers • Engine Fires • Ignition switch • Peeling Paint • Radiator • Transmission • Windshield

     

    source: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/manufacturers.htm
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote E-Troy:-"amazing technology"????? More like... "inconsistent technology". If you drive like a snail you can get +10mpg over the EPA estimates (just like any non-hybrid car), but drive "normal" like everyone else, and your hybrid will be no better than a non-hybrid."

     

    You cannot get great numbers out of most non-Hybrids even driving like a snail because you do not have a "realtime MPG" gauge on the non-hybrids that lets you adjust your driving style at THAT MOMENT to maximize your efficiency.

     

    If you want to "drive like any other car" then you should buy "another car" besides a Hybrid. The intent/goal of the High MPG Hybrids (Insight/Prius/HCH) is to maximize your MPG and lower your fuel bill.

     

    If that's not what you want to do, then buy a different car.

     

    And by the by: Show me a diesel car available for sale in the USA that has an owner who has reported 50+ MPG "consistently" since the car was new. And someone who has a 59 MPG 700 mile tank. Show me. (not holding my breath)
    You know, Troy, that there are MULTIPLE Hybrid owners who have done this.

     

    How about 859 mi @ 64.8 mpg in an HCH...: Show me a 4-door TDI that can do that....
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    I can't make a claim for every HCH but the database at green hybrid lists 63 HCH's that show an average of 67MPG reported by real owners who drive them. That's EPA rating.

     

    I think you meant to say 47 mpg combined. That is very close to the EPA estimate. I think most of the bruhaw was over the Prius 60 mpg city rating that rarely materializes.

     

    Glad I did, as over the year it ran about 128% over EPA

     

    The way I calculate, if the EPA is 48 mpg combined that would be about 109 mpg combined. I did not excel in math so I could be wrong.
  • There are many, many drivers at www.tdiclub.com that drive slow & consistently get over 50 mpg. A few have even achieved 60+ mpg. Go check for yourself.

     

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Yes, I saw some BEETLE TDI numbers at 62.

     

    This is a JETTA TDI vs HCH forum, and I have yet to see any reports of Jetta TDIs getting 64+ MPG, or consistently averaging 50+ like the HCH can do.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    "Based on an on-going mileage poll in this forum, more than 35% of owners of 2003-and-earlier TDIs with manual transmissions report mileage in the 40-45 MPG range. And another 8% report less than 40 MPG. So you are most likely not doing anything wrong. Your problem is that you are comparing your mileage to the 56% or so who who drive mostly on the highway."

     

    Once again, the fact that TDIs suffer in city driving is acknowledged. Back to my post from a few days ago:

     

    "I think it boils down to these decision points:

    If you want the greener of the two, buy the HCH.

    If you do a lot of 70 MPH hwy cruising or commuting, get the Jetta.

    If you want a car that will stay out of the shop better and break down less often, get the HCH.

    If you want to be able to drive it like a regular car and still get close to EPA MPG numbers, get the Jetta.

    If your commute is short or is mostly City driving, get the HCH.

    If you think diesel is the greatest thing since sliced bread (and you know who you are out there) then get the Jetta.

    If you like cool new technology, and like to play the "how high can my MPG get?" game, get the HCH.

    I think that boils it down to brass tacks. This thread can now be closed. :)"

     

    That sums it pretty good...
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,057
    "Yes, I saw some BEETLE TDI numbers at 62.

      

    This is a JETTA TDI vs HCH forum, and I have yet to see any reports of Jetta TDIs getting 64+ MPG, or consistently averaging 50+ like the HCH can do. "

     

    Why would that matter? You have already gone on record saying when it comes to TDI's one can not draw a conclusion on the data ?

     

    Here's another one.

     

    If I drove your HCH like I drive my TDI, I would get far less mpg than the TDI. And the HCH would not perform as well!!!

     

    It is totally misleading to not acknowledge or gloss over the same driving behaviors for those that are bent on getting the max mileage both in the TDI and HCH.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I never said that.
    What I said was "do not make a decision based on one single piece of data."

     

    And yes, it IS important data that users can get 64+ MPG from an HCH and cannot from a TDI, in the light of

     

    COMPARSION

     

    for reasons of trying to decide which car fits their need better.

     

    All available data should be considered, and this is one piece of it, just like all other VALID sources.

     

    Don't make a decision based on ONE FACT alone, but take in all information that applies to your decision making goal.
  • Its ironic that you quote consumer affairs, but choose to ignore CR, JDP, Edmunds etc. It is a well known fact that VW reliability has fallen in the past few years. You conveniently forget the various serious problems as seen in the Edmunds forums about VWs while listing Honda flaws. Please go to those forums and then give us an unbiased posting.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote ruking1-"If I drove your HCH like I drive my TDI, I would get far less mpg than the TDI. And the HCH would not perform as well!!!"-end quote

     

    That's absolutely true. But it's also true that I drove 3.1 miles after a fillup and got 93 MPG in my HCH cruising at 34 MPH, and you cannot do THAT in a TDI.

     

    So all this is fun, but what matters is choosing the car that fits YOU best.

     

    I happen to think FAR FAR more buyers are suited for an HCH than are suited for the TDI, because MOST PEOPLE have a combination of city and hwy driving in their commute, where the HCH is better, and do not just get on a freeway and go 70 MPH to their workplace, which is where the TDI is better.
This discussion has been closed.