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Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    If you are a Hybrid owner who plans to keep their Hybrid that many miles (I dont - I'm going to trade up to newer, better Hybrids every 3 to 4 yrs) I have good news and bad news:

     

    Bad News First: We don't know if your battery system will die at 100K, 150K, 200K or sooner. With the Priuses, the chances of the battery being incapacitated and thus killing the car are greater than the Honda line because of the way the Toyota system is deeper integrated into the driveline.

     

    Good News: In the case of the Civic Hybrid, it's still a "Civic" under the "Hybrid" badge, so hypothetically, you could still drive it with an UNUSABLE battery system and still get around 30 mpg, if you were in a situation where it had 150K and the battery needed replacement and you could not afford it.

     

    So the future holds marvelous surprises and wonderment for us all !!!! :) :)
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    I try to keep my autos for 10 years then renew.

     

    At that time my HCH will have around 175K miles.

    My Honda ext warranty covers the battery for 150k and 10 yrs.

     

    If the battery would suddenly crap at 151K, I'd still drive it with the reduced MPG for the extra 25K miles.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    What is curious however, is the UTTER lack of say like Boston and NYC hybrid taxi cabs!

     

    There are no big hybrids out there. Ford Escape is not even close to the medallion cab requirements in NYC. It took T&LC a couple of years and a few bribes from Honda to allow Honda Oddisey/Isuzu Oasis as medallion cabs. Ford followed with Explorer.

    Don't forget that yellow cab owners, not drivers make decisions. And they want the most reliable and least expensive to repair vehicle. RWD US made, cop auctioned Crown Vics, and what ever is left of Chevy Caprice fits the "cheap to reapir" bill. Oddisey fits the "reliable" requirement. I don't know what posessed someone to use Explorer's as cabs.

     

    You put a bullet proof partition behind the driver in the Prius/HCH and there is no room for passengers.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    You put a bullet proof partition behind the driver in the Prius/HCH and there is no room for passengers.

     

    I forgot about that partition in cabs back east. I was talking to my Cloud 9 shuttle driver the other day and he told me they have the best luck with the GM full size vans. They go an average of 400k miles before selling them. They only get about 250k out of the Ford Vans. You see very few mini-vans in the shuttle business. Once in a while the cab companies use them. I'm sure the domestics are cheaper to repair.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Bluiegod:

     

    ___That was a great post. Quite a bit of information I had no idea about!

     

    ___Good Luck

     

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,907
    I would also agree with you. Another set of reasons why the hybrid is not ready for "PRIME TIME"
  • Just a few quick notes:

    The VW TDI is a proven motor. It works.

    VW's seats are really nice, but in Canada, seat warmers are a must.

    I have a 99 Civic EX, and a 01 Jetta TDI, the TDI feels more solid, and is so much easier to drive. There is torque all the time. The Jetta has 20,000 more kilometers than the Civic, because it is hands down the winner for comfort, and fuel economy. The Civic Hybrid maybe have a better EPA rating, but I can drive the crap out of my Jetta and still get 48mpg.

    Best thing for the TDI's is a chip though, (110hp, and 170ft/lbs torque)
  • Last tank I was 1100km/s between fill ups, who needs to find a station that pumps diesel!!
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    Is it not a well-known fact that the 'hybreds' fare better in city driving conditions (stop-n-go) while the TDIs are far superiour when it comes to longer trips on the highway?

     

    The EPA (Federal goverment body) has defined the means to measure "city" and "highway" MPG to be posted on window stickers. The 'Hybreds' are 'tuned' to make the best of those defined measuring processies.

     

    As an example of 'tuning' a vehicle to look good on paper, all automatic xmisstions are designed to shift into high gear AFTER 60 MPH. (at WOT) This makes the 0-to-60 measurements look the best on paper.

     

    There has been talk of updating the defined EPA measuring process to better reflect real-world conditons.... Of course since the Federal government is involved I do not expect any changes for many years to come.
  • "LUPO 3L TDI is banned from entering the country."

    .

     

    "FALSE. The Lupo is as welcome here as the other 5 TDIs currently in the U.S. (tourareg, passat, jetta, golf, beetle). Volkswagen simply chooses not to bring it here. Nor the Polo."

     

    .

     

    "So what you are implying is I can go to Europe and import one over here to the USA!?"

     

    .

     

    Irrelevant. You said the Lupo is "banned". It is not. Volkswagen can bring the Lupo the USA whenever they want. In fact, there already ARE two Lupo TDIs in the USA. One is owned by VW for demonstrations, and one is owned by a gentleman near Richmond.

     

    Troy
  • "Bottom line: I suspect that for the LUPO to be made "acceptable" to meet the US safety requirements, it would have to be many 100s of lbs heavier with all of the safety cageing."

     

    .

     

    You're probably right, but if that deathtrap called the Mini Cooper can pass safety regulations, so too can the Lupo TDI. They have near-identical styles, so the safety features used in the Cooper can be used in the Lupo too.

     

    As for that "Lupo TDI is slow" articles, I see tons of similar articles about the Prius and Civic Hybrids. Half of what they say is out-right lying, and the other half is just flat wrong. The reporters are biased against high mpg diesel & hybrid cars, and they aren't worth listening to.
  • Lupo TDI 80 mpg car accelerates 0-60 at 14.5 seconds:

     

    http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_319.shtml
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,907
    I also think that you are conveniently ignoring the core of what I said. So yes, I stand by what I have said! Another thing I said was you really don't have to listen to what I say, just try importing the LUPO yourself ie be that third LUPO?!! Of course, we will probably appreciate and be entertained by your "trials and tribulations" in this endeavor. All the best!And keep us informed of your "progress."
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    "Lupo TDI 80 mpg car accelerates 0-60 at 14.5 seconds"

     

    That's really bad.

    Imagine if it were loaded with U.S. emission regulation equipment and the safety factor brought up to minimum specs?

     

    A previously mentioned magazine article claims a scary situation with an HCH passing trucks on a 20 mile hill with a depleated pack. Wonder if they would even try it in a Lupo?

     

    I imagine it might cost around the price of an HCH, but smaller, dangerously slower, less safe and still pay about $.20 more per gallon of fuel. (At least around Atlanta)

     

    Sounds like it was a wise decision by VW to keep it in Europe.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    They must not give a hoot what CARB thinks

     

    VW is the world's leading manufacturer of passenger vehicle diesels. Almost 40% of all vehicles it sells in Canada have a diesel beneath the hood. While recent VW diesels, including the TDI have been impressive - the new 2004 versions are even more so.

     

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/rr/04jetta_tdi_se.htm
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    The proposed change would (summarize content and impact of proposal):* Allow for the continued sale of VW TDI passenger vehicles in the state of Maine for model years 2004-2006. In this case, Maine’s acceptance of the California New Vehicle Emission Requirements will eliminate the most efficient 5-passenger vehicle on the road today, one that helps to reduce CO2 emissions and our dependence on imported oil. Federal guidelines have accepted this class of vehicle for continued sale in 45 other states. The text of the new or modified rule would read:*

    (8) diesel-powered passenger vehicles that are Federally compliant, including the Volkswagen TDI vehicles, for model years 2004-2006, are considered to be exceptions to Sections 4 (A)

     

    http://www.solarhouse.com/resources/BEP%20Presentation.pdf
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    "Lupo TDI 80 mpg car accelerates 0-60 at 14.5 seconds"

      

    That's really bad.

    Imagine if it were loaded with U.S. emission regulation equipment and the safety factor brought up to minimum specs?

      

    A previously mentioned magazine article claims a scary situation with an HCH passing trucks on a 20 mile hill with a depleated pack. Wonder if they would even try it in a Lupo?

      

    I imagine it might cost around the price of an HCH, but smaller, dangerously slower, less safe and still pay about $.20 more per gallon of fuel. (At least around Atlanta)

      

    Sounds like it was a wise decision by VW to keep it in Europe.


     

    If you know that your vehicle is not capable of something, why would you even attempt to do such thing.

     

    Someone driving Lupo would not attempt to pass a semi on an uphill. They are both diesels and have their reasons for going slow up hill. Just follow the semi. Same with the Hybrid, if you know that it is not capable of passing a semi on a long up hill, why even bother and clogging up th eleft lane with your car in addition of the semi holding the right lane. You will create negative publicity for the whole Hybrid line. If someone in the 50 car line up behind you holding up the left lane ever thought of buying a hybrid, they may have their doubts now. Neither Lupo nor Hybrids are racing cars, follow the semi to the top of the hill!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    Someone driving Lupo would not attempt to pass a semi on an uphill.

     

    From the articles I have read the Lupo TDI has plenty of power for it's small size. It also passes the EURO4 emissions and UK Safety standards. UK safety standards required the Prius to add the side air bags and rear disc brakes to conform.

     

    The Lupo is not a highway cruiser and is not sold as such. It is a great around town honest 70-80 mpg car. For short runs to the store it would fill a niche that the hybrids are not well suited for. I think at about 60% of the price of a Civic it would be successful over here. They sell in the same price range as a GEM golf cart.

     

    0-62 12.3 seconds, top speed 106 mph, 4 star crash rating, same as the Civic

     

    http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/volkswagen/volkswagen-lupo-1.4-sp- ort-tdi-3dr.asp?switched=on&echo=826289839
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    Imagine if it were loaded with U.S. emission regulation equipment and the safety factor brought up to minimum specs?

     

    I think that is a non issue. I was sitting next to a Toyota Echo this morning. I cannot imagine the Lupo being much smaller than that little coupe. And then you have the immensely popular Mini-Cooper. I am sure the Lupo is bigger than that. Plus neither of those cars get near the mileage of the Lupo 1.4 TDI. The 65 mpg combined on the Lupo is 30-35 mpg better than the Echo or Mini-Cooper.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    And then you have the immensely popular Mini-Cooper

     

    Mini also weighs in at about 3000 lbs. A Lupo at 3000 lbs would not be a getting 65 mpg.

     

    Speaking of Mini's, take a Cooper S for a test drive. I have yet to drive a front wheel drive car that was so much fun. The next best front wheel drive car is the current Civic Si, which sells for $10,000 less than Cooper S, similarly equipped.
  • john500john500 Posts: 409
    Impressive fuel economy and looks. However, 10,500 british pounds is far greater than 60 % of the price of a Civic. I'm sure Volkswagen will introduce this vehicle to the US, limit imports, and charge a premium.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    I'm sure Volkswagen will introduce this vehicle to the US, limit imports, and charge a premium.

     

    You are probably right. VW dealers are not discounting any of the TDI models below MSRP. You can get most any of the gas VWs at invoice, they have lots full of them. Can you imagine how many they could sell if CA opened the door for diesel. Out of 320k cars sold in the USA this year only 10% were TDI. Compared to Europe where 50% were diesel and VW sells the most cars in Europe.
  • john500john500 Posts: 409
    Your point about government involvement is very relevant. Currently, car companies are passing off the costs of responsible fuel consumption to the consumer. This is fine for wealthy US citizens and I complement their purchase. However, for working class citizens, a gas-powered car is far more cost effective. The US government needs to adopt more aggressive tactics to favor the purchase of smaller fuel-efficient cars (i.e. non-commerical vehicle weight limits, yearly registration costs that scale with engine displacement or weight, etc.). The current tax break for hybrids basically offsets the dealer markup. Unfortunately, the tactic that has been used in the past will likely be used in the future. That tactic is to unexpectedly increase fuel costs dramatically and send consumers running for more fuel efficient cars. Previous efforts at gradual slight improvements in the fuel economy of factory assembled cars have met resistance by senators like Trent Lott who feels that it is his "right" to ride around in a 5000+ pound gas guzzler.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    (Blueiedgod #229)

    "Same with the Hybrid, if you know that it is not capable of passing a semi on a long up hill"

    The hybrid is capable of passing these.

    (gagrice #231)

    "I was sitting next to a Toyota Echo this morning. I cannot imagine the Lupo being much smaller than that little coupe"

    Yes, the Echo is much smaller than an HCH, which was a big reason I decided against it.

    (john500 #235)

    " Trent Lott who feels that it is his "right" to ride around in a 5000+ pound gas guzzler."

    I think anyone should be able to drive any vehicle they can afford & is legal, from a Lupo to a commercial jet.

    What I don't understand are the full size vehicle owners when they complain about their fuel budget.
  • Hi, gang!! I've decided to finally check out an '03 Jetta TDI for my 110 mile daily commute to the Wash. DC area. The dealer where I checked out the Jetta is asking 18,500 for an '03 GLS with cloth seats ,no heated seats and an 5 speed. It has 22,000 miles, the power opts. and a sunroof. The first question I have is is this a fair price for this car? Second, I haven't driven a VW sice we buried the '84 golf in 1994. Is the TDI reliable? Has VW finally fixed the annoying electrical issues that plagued my '84? Is the TDI Golf a better buy than the Jetta? Any recommendations you guys can give are greatly appreciated.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    I cannot comment on the price but can tell you that my 2003 Jetta TDI is the very best vehicle I have ever owned.

     

    I just returned from an inpromptu trip from Vermont to Colorado and back.(Over 4000 miles in about 4 days) This was about a 70 hour trip where the engine NEVER cooled off!! We had 3 drivers that took turns on this non-stop trip.

     

    The TDI engine was MARVELOUS! It can cruze at 80MPH for hours on end. (Posted speed limit was 75 in Colorado) The mountian passes were a NON-issue for the trubocharged TDI. (The thin air and steep grades make NON turbocharged engines seem whimpy) Of course, the >52MPG was the best part of the trip.

     

    It still amazes me that I can drive over 100 miles and the fuel guage barely leaves FULL.

     

    In response to your question about wiring issues. I am only aware of the "coolant migration issue" that may be an issue and I check my Jetta regularly for this issue. (Easy to detect and correct... VERY expensive to fix the damage it can cause.)
  • Thanks for the comment on the '03 Jetta. What is the coolant migration issue and how can it be checked?
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    Here is the video about the "coolant migration issue"

     

    http://www.cincitdi.com/richc/coolantmigration.html
  • That is not a good price. You should be able to get that price on a new 2005 (invoice) not a used 2004. Remaining 2004s including TDIs are being offered at $4,500 off MSRP in Houston. The new 2006 Jetta will be coming out in March 2005. See the latest Motor Trend for some pictures and a blip on the car. 7 inches longer 24.5 cubic foot trunk. TDI will be offered.

     

    I have reasearched a lot of cars and really like the TDI. I drove a 2005 TDI manual 5-speed and was impressed with the acceleration ( and that is not an easy comment from me).

     

    Good Luck,

     

    MidCow
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    Remaining 2004s including TDIs are being offered at $4,500 off MSRP in Houston.

     

    What dealer might still have a 2004 Jetta or Passat TDI available. I pulled up the Houston dealers and cannot find any 2004 TDIs available. I would buy either a Passat or Jetta Wagon TDI.
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