Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

fintail

Next time spend the $5 more/day and get a properly equipped car

A friend of mine used to rent frequently, one trip in a Rio with no cruse in Florida cured his excessive thrift.

Michaell

fintail said:

Next time spend the $5 more/day and get a properly equipped car

A friend of mine used to rent frequently, one trip in a Rio with no cruse in Florida cured his excessive thrift.

The upgrade to a Camry / Altima / Optima would have been $10/day.

Should have taken it. Much bigger selection, too.

corvette

fintail said:

Next time spend the $5 more/day and get a properly equipped car

I kind of wanted to rent a Model S on my upcoming trip, just to see what it's like, but I think the only available option is Enterprise's exotic collection, and they don't publish prices. (If you have to ask, you can't afford it!) Also, I think there are mileage limitations.

nelsonf said:

I wonder if they meet any pollution standards, even standards from a few years ago, or are they really that bad?

I am guessing the 2008+ vehicles would probably meet whatever standard existed prior to 2008, since the engines are similar and there is no recall on the older models.

fintail

I know there was a time when people would book the cheapest smallest car, as there were few in the fleets, and would usually get a class or three upgrade for "free", as no small cars would be in stock. It appears small cars are back in the fleets, as I often see rental Yaris, Spark, Fiesta, Rio etc. I usually reserve "Premium", as that class usually has something decent, and a move up is just gravy. Sometimes it is only a few dollars more than standard/fullsize. Something for the rental car thread I guess.

I took my car in to replace the skid plate/splash guard today, and the part hadn't come in. However, they said they'd take 25% off the part and comp the labor (it's not a big job), so I am fine with it. I got to look under the car when it was on the lift, and am now satisfied there is no real damage - the plastic plate took the brunt of it. I am also thinking of having a clear bra installed - maybe dumb to do on a lease, and I should have thought of it when dismissing the optional extras when signing paperwork, but the more I drive this car, I think I might buy it at the end of the lease. I like it.

Mr_Shiftright

houdini1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't think VW would want that kind of PR---shipping dirty cars to poor countries.

You may be right from a "politically correct" standpoint, but I wouldn't describe these relatively clean diesels as "dirty cars". After all, the U.S. is allowing many of them to be driven here. Do you really think that these diesels would pollute more than the thousands of 50 and 60 year old cars that they drive now?

If handled correctly I think VW could get some good PR by doing this.

I'm not seein' that, but hey, nobody can say for sure. My speculation is that Cuba would be highly insulted. They have a pretty pristine environment, all things considered and are proud of it.

As for how much more the offending VW diesels are "polluting", here's one test from the International Council on Clean Transportation:

"The ICCT conducted in-use tests, using portable emissions modeling systems, on three vehicles: a VW Jetta, a VW Passat, and a BMW X5. In the tests, conducted over five pre-defined routes categorized based on their predominant driving conditions (highway, urban/suburban, and rural-up/downhill driving), real-world nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions from the Jetta exceeded the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 (at full useful life) standard by 15 to 35 times. For the Passat, real-world NOx emissions were 5 to 20 times the standard. The BMW vehicle was generally at or below the standard, and only exceeded it during rural uphill operating conditions."

houdini1

Mr. Shiftright---"I'm not seein' that, but hey, nobody can say for sure. My speculation is that Cuba would be highly insulted. They have a pretty pristine environment, all things considered and are proud of it."


Most of the population of Cuba lives in Havana. Over the years, almost all of those beautiful old U.S. cars from the 40's and 50's have been converted over to run on diesel...and these really are dirty diesels. This is also true of all the trucks, busses, etc. Electric power comes from diesel or coal.

Now if you think Cuba has a pristine environment, I guess the U.S. and the rest of the world is really on the wrong track to reduce air pollution.

There is probably 100 reasons why sending these cars to Cuba would never happen, but adding to their poor air quality is not one of them.

fintail

I wonder what percentage of Cuban cars have emissions equipment at all - as the ones not powered by old diesels are Soviet bloc stuff along with developing world-spec Asian cars and similar spec Renaults/Peugeots. If Cuba has a clean environment, it is because of a lack of personal transport (and shipping - the elephant in the room the greenies don't seem to want to touch), not because of an embrace of emissions standards. I'd wager a cheater VW is cleaner than a 1955 Ford with an old Lada engine. That being said, I would love to visit while it hasn't been completely commercialized, and see the creative way they kept stylish vehicles on the road with lower quality later components.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

I wonder what percentage of Cuban cars have emissions equipment at all - as the ones not powered by old diesels are Soviet bloc stuff along with developing world-spec Asian cars and similar spec Renaults/Peugeots. If Cuba has a clean environment, it is because of a lack of personal transport (and shipping - the elephant in the room the greenies don't seem to want to touch), not because of an embrace of emissions standards. I'd wager a cheater VW is cleaner than a 1955 Ford with an old Lada engine. That being said, I would love to visit while it hasn't been completely commercialized, and see the creative way they kept stylish vehicles on the road with lower quality later components.

Exactly. Havana is not "Cuba", and much of the island isn't highly developed or trashed by tourism.

Havana is like Rome or Paris in pollution indexes (air, water, light, dirt) but Berlin is much better ---HMMMM....

breld

Picked up the Jetta a little bit ago, had lunch at a local Mexican restaurant. And since we're here, figured we'd go to the royal gorge bridge!

breld

corvette

Breld, I took that same exact photo a few years ago. Is the overlook point still hard to find?

breld

That was the first time I'd been there since I was a kid, but that overlook was right near where we parked, so maybe they reconfigured all that to make it easier.

breld

Filled up the tank just before getting home.  This is cool.

breld

So when I spoke with the sales manager earlier this week on the phone, he claimed that this car could sit in a VW showroom and be mistaken for new. I figured he was exaggerating, but took it to mean it was in nice shape.

But he wasn't really far from the truth. There's a small "star" in the windshield, but other than that, I can't really find any blemish inside or out. Even the cargo mat, cargo cover, and those "blocks" that VW offers for the hatch that help keep things in place are all present and accounted for. Plus, both winter and fabric floormats.

And it has some nice features - the large panoramic sunroof, navigation, bluetooth audio, the "smartkey" access and engine start.

Great deal. Really is a shame that it's likely headed for the scrapyard eventually.

corvette

fintail said:

That being said, I would love to visit while it hasn't been completely commercialized, and see the creative way they kept stylish vehicles on the road with lower quality later components.

Same here. I'd go for the food alone. We have an outstanding Cuban restaurant in Louisville. roadburner, ever been to Havana Rumba?

breld

Few pics.

nyccarguy

Looks great @breld! Congrats on the punch!

corvette

Nice! That's the same nav unit that my GLI had. Are you going to pull the dealer badge off the back?

28firefighter

Looks great, @breld. Enjoy it for as long as VW allows.

Definitely should get rid of that dealer badge, though.

breld

Dealer badge is gone.

breld

Almost forgot to post this picture. This was in the showroom of the Chevy dealer where we got the Jetta. Personally, I know nothing about such a truck, but it sure was cool.

stickguy

so this is just an addition to the fleet until you get it bought back? Or is something getting shown the street to make room for it?

I have trouble keeping up with your fleet.

breld

Something has to go. Even without the VW TDI experiment, we were gonna get rid of a car, most likely the X5. That was to be my wife's daily driver until she got the MINI and ended up loving it.

Shedding the S4 would make the most impact financially, but I'm not sure I'm ready to move on from it.

Either way, we're waiting until our road trip is done in a few weeks to market the X5, if that is the way we go.

breld

@nyccarguy, @corvette, @28firefighter

Thanks for the congrats!

28firefighter

@breld - which document spells out the NADA values without the restitution? You've piqued my wife's interest.

All the documents I have seen combine the buyback with restitution amount.

Michaell

@breld – So which car am I going to see you driving at lunch on Tuesday?

And, I've noticed that all of the temporary tags are being printed rather than handwritten here in Colorado. Do all dealers have a special printer for this?

kyfdx

28firefighter said:

@breld - which document spells out the NADA values without the restitution? You've piqued my wife's interest.

All the documents I have seen combine the buyback with restitution amount.

Ditto here..

Please give your purchase price, and what you assume your options are at the end, and what time frame. This could be a nice bridge vehicle to get my son to his next car.

And also: "What, you couldn't find a stick?"

rayainsw

Breld -
Congrats - and good luck.
How has the driving experience been, so far?
- Ray
Not in the market - right this minute.....

houdini1

breld said:

@nyccarguy, @corvette, @28firefighter

Thanks for the congrats!

Very nice car Breld, let us know how you enjoy the drive.

au1994

Nice car breld. Even if the buy back doesn't end up working, not a bad rig to have in the fleet.

28firefighter

I believe I have figured this out...

You calculate the cash buyback price and options from Attachment 1A, then adjust for mileage from Attachment 2A-2C. Then you calculate the modification payout and options from Attachment 1A, then adjust for mileage the modification payout from Attachment 2A-2C.

Subtract the total modification payout from the total cash buyback price and that is your base NADA value. Then divide the modification payout you calculated by two and add that to the NADA value, and that's your minimum buyback as a purchaser after 9/2015.

You could get more after the fact but it's not guaranteed. Does this sound right, @breld?

My issue in Seattle is the crazy asking prices for TDIs. For this to make sense you have to buy right (I'd say no more than 15-16k plus tax) for it to be worth the effort.

breld

28firefighter said:

@breld - which document spells out the NADA values without the restitution? You've piqued my wife's interest.

All the documents I have seen combine the buyback with restitution amount.

Here's one of the exhibits in the FTC order:

Attachment 1a

This lists the two options for each car - the first column is your buyback amount and the second column is the restitution if you choose the emissions fix. The buyback amount is inclusive of the restitution.

So, I'm backing into the Vehicle Value amount, by subtracting that restitution amount (second column) from the first column. There's no provision for an owner to only receive the Vehicle Value amount, so it's not separately stated anywhere - I'm just doing my own analysis on that as sort of a worst case scenario. So, assume I'm wrong about a late buyer like myself receiving any sort of "bonus" - but I am confident they have to at least buy the car back.

In fact, the Department of Justice consent states that VW must buy back the cars at "Replacement Retail Value" which is described as Retail value at the time the scandal broke. They consent that the settlement agreement fulfills that obligation (and then some).

breld

28firefighter said:

I believe I have figured this out...

You calculate the cash buyback price and options from Attachment 1A, then adjust for mileage from Attachment 2A-2C. Then you calculate the modification payout and options from Attachment 1A, then adjust for mileage the modification payout from Attachment 2A-2C.

Subtract the total modification payout from the total cash buyback price and that is your base NADA value. Then divide the modification payout you calculated by two and add that to the NADA value, and that's your minimum buyback as a purchaser after 9/2015.

You could get more after the fact but it's not guaranteed. Does this sound right, @breld?

My issue in Seattle is the crazy asking prices for TDIs. For this to make sense you have to buy right (I'd say no more than 15-16k plus tax) for it to be worth the effort.

Sorry - I just saw your post after I posted my response. So yes, you're exactly right.

The FTC Order actually details out the calculation -

• Unless you bought the car after 9/18/15 but before 6/28/16, you receive the buyback in column 1, adjusted for mileage and options.
  
• If you purchased the car between 9/18/15 and 6/28/16, you receive the amount in column 1, less 50% of the amount in column 2, plus any amount "leftover" from the Eligible Seller pool.
  

Of course, the actual FTC Order is more wordy than that, but you get the point. So again, you are exactly right.

I'm actually thinking because the dealership I purchased it from owned the car as of 9/18/15, and sold it after 6/28/16, I may get the entire amount.

breld

Michaell said:

@breld – So which car am I going to see you driving at lunch on Tuesday?

And, I've noticed that all of the temporary tags are being printed rather than handwritten here in Colorado. Do all dealers have a special printer for this?

Yeah - the dealership pointed out the change in process from Colorado. No more little pink slips - there's a more formal printout for the temp registration. And yes, the new nicer temp tags. I know this must be recent 'cause, well, it hasn't been that long since I last bought a car.

breld

28firefighter said:

I believe I have figured this out...
My issue in Seattle is the crazy asking prices for TDIs. For this to make sense you have to buy right (I'd say no more than 15-16k plus tax) for it to be worth the effort.

Yes, that is the kicker. And that's what the few articles that talk about this situation point out - you have to find a seller who's willing to part with the car at a price that makes sense. Not many options:

• A private seller surely is keeping up with the settlement news and is willing to wait a few more months to sell it back to VW.
  
• VW/Audi dealerships are banned from selling the TDIs, used or not. (Some in my area are still marketing them, but I wouldn't feel safe buying from them - it's pretty clear in the agreements)
  
• Non-VW dealerships that still have TDIs they took in on trade.
  

That last group is the one to target, I'd say. Some may want to go through the hassle and cost of waiting to have VW buy it back. But like any other sale, if they have a buyer in front of them, they likely take the quick sale.

I think I ran into a unique situation - this Chevy dealer in a small little town in Colorado that apparently has trouble selling imports. They've had it for over a year, and are just anxious to move the unit.

28firefighter

I've noticed a ton of VW and Audi dealers still marketing TDIs and cannot figure out how that is working given the stipulations.

breld

kyfdx said:

28firefighter said:

@breld - which document spells out the NADA values without the restitution? You've piqued my wife's interest.

All the documents I have seen combine the buyback with restitution amount.

Ditto here..

Please give your purchase price, and what you assume your options are at the end, and what time frame. This could be a nice bridge vehicle to get my son to his next car.

And also: "What, you couldn't find a stick?"

So, I paid $16,662 plus tax, so all in, it will be about $17.9k with tax.

The buyback, adjusted for options, is $25,607, plus $2,040 for the low mileage. So a total of $27,647.

That's best case scenario, and in my opinion, the likely one.

But if for some reason I fall in the category of sharing the restitution 50% with the previous owner, it's still $24,099.

And really, when I started all this thought process, I simply wanted to buy and drive one of these TDIs for awhile, because I like them - and then sell it back for about what I paid for.

breld

kyfdx said:

28firefighter said:

@breld - which document spells out the NADA values without the restitution? You've piqued my wife's interest.

All the documents I have seen combine the buyback with restitution amount.

And also: "What, you couldn't find a stick?"

Yeah, I would've happily taken a stick, but funny enough, I couldn't find a manual transmission wagon out there! The sedan that @michaell found is a stick - in red no less!

breld

Michaell said:

@breld – So which car am I going to see you driving at lunch on Tuesday?

Probably the wagon. 'Cause "why not" drive the "free" car around?

ab348

Someone should open a business to find all TDIs that are for sale and charge a fee for figuring out what VW will pay for them in the buyback. Take a 10% commission and hey presto, you are printing money.

28firefighter

There is a TDI wagon near me that is a stick, but the dealer (non-VW) is asking $19,9 for it - crazy money when retail on it is $15k-$16k.

breld

@rayainsw, @houdini1, @au1994 -

Thank you for the kind words on congratulation.

As for the impressions on the car...I'm really digging it.

First off, I love when we find a used car that's in such great condition. Generally, we wouldn't buy one not in great condition anyway, but this one may be the nicest one so far.

VW has made steady improvements to the Jetta since they changed it all up (in 2011 I believe?), to the point that I think it's a great car and great buy (evidenced by the one driven by my stepdaughter).

But...I'm finding this last generation Jetta was quite upscale, with nice interior materials and just a solid feel in the handling. If I remember correctly when I was shopping these new, the TDI Golfs and Jetta wagons had the same suspension as the GTIs. The TDI, paired with the DSG, has a little hesitation when starting off, but once it gets going, it has great and consistent "pull." Passing power on the highway is more than adequate - I had plenty of opportunity to test that on my drive back yesterday to Denver.

And as I mentioned on the interior - it's little things, but they add up. Soft-close door on the console compartment, felt-lined door pockets, the large sunshade that retracts by power. Definitely harkens back to a time when VW really tried to make the Jetta a more upscale alternative to other compacts.

It's only Day 2 of ownership, so I wouldn't claim this feeling will last, but there's a part of me that would entertain accepting the fix and restitution (assuming they come up with a fix on these "Generation 1" engines, which is questionable). Having such a nice car, fixed to EPA requirements, and another $7k in the pocket wouldn't be a bad outcome.

kyfdx

28firefighter said:

I've noticed a ton of VW and Audi dealers still marketing TDIs and cannot figure out how that is working given the stipulations.

I've noticed the same thing..

kyfdx

So where is the mileage adjustment attachment?

28firefighter

Go to the VW settlement site, documents, and under FTC proposed settlement it's spread across Attachments 2A-2C depending on model.

kyfdx

Yeah.. I see it now, thanks.

I put in a VIN for one that is for sale at a local VW dealer and it comes back as ineligible. So, guessing anything a VW dealer has reported in inventory is a no go on getting a settlement.

Put in one from a CJD dealer and it's eligible.

kyfdx

I ran the numbers on the local unit. Ineligible, I think because it's at a VW dealer, but just to complete the exercise.

After subtracting half of the modification amount from the buyback number, and adjusting for mileage, I get $26,631. This is for a 2014 Jetta Wagon TDI with 14,198 miles, and an asking price of $18,769. If I figured $20K out the door, that's still a $6631 delta.

hmmmmm

kyfdx

LOL... I can make the numbers work for a lot of them

2014 with 148K miles! Asking price is $11K, buyback after mileage and 50% mod adjustment is $17,223.

kyfdx

Okay, this is beginning to take up all of my time.

2015 Passat SE TDI, 45K miles, $17K asking price.
$24,621 buyback after all adjustments

stickguy

Michaell said:

@breld – So which car am I going to see you driving at lunch on Tuesday?

And, I've noticed that all of the temporary tags are being printed rather than handwritten here in Colorado. Do all dealers have a special printer for this?

I'm sure by now they just issued Breld his own printer.