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Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

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  • stickguystickguy Posts: 21,633

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 20,132
    $21k for a near 100k-mile Cayenne? Thanks for thinking of me, but no thanks on that one.

    I still haven't taken the time to narrow my choices. I can argue in my head for all of them for different reasons. The competing reasons are:
    1. desirability - if I don't have a passion for it, I likely won't stick with it long
    2. fun factor - looking like I won't get a sport car to go with it
    3. reliability - I will be putting on a ton of miles
    4. cost of ownership - hard for me to justify an expensive car that I'll use up in a few years

    Seems I can usually hit 2 out of the 4. All 4 is kinda tough.

    '12 EX35 Journey AWD; '14 Jetta TDI wagon; '98 Volvo S70 base; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 42-car history and counting!

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 53,884
    $21K sounds like Dealer Home-Run Retail on that one. I'm thinking $17.5K is more than fair.



    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 7,356

    Not worried exactly, just not trusting...something totally different. It drives great, love everything about it and do want to keep it for an extended period of time. Basically I just want the peace of mind that keeping it to 80K or even 90K, that most things will be covered. Honestly, think I need to drive an HR-V and see if it's something I could live with. Sat in one again yesterday at the Honda store, and yes, the interior is a place I definitely could live with. I know the fit and finish are top notch and I won't need to spring for a warranty here as heck, it's a Honda. I have heard that the a/c is not up to snuff nor is the acceleration and these are things I need to see for myself. The ingress/egress is perfect, love the EX-L seating surfaces, back seat isn't a penalty box just hate the lack of knobs on the a/c and infotainment equipment.
    Once I drive one, I'll know very quickly if it's a vehicle I could live with and one that I like as much as I do my Golf. Then, and only then, will I know if I should take your advice and dump it when the powertrain warranty is up. This goes for the Mini to, I'll need a much longer test drive to make an educated decision.

    The Sandman :) B)

    I view extended warranties as counter-productive. Let VW earn your trust. If you end up spending more than the warranty cost then just don't ever buy another VW again. By blowing money on the warranty you are guaranteeing that you won't have a great low-cost reliable experience. It might be reliable, but then you threw money away. With the warranty; if it isn't reliable, you still own a clunker lemon, but your bank account isn't affected too much.

    It is like taking even money when you have a blackjack instead of 3:2 and the dealer is showing an Ace; a bad bet every time unless you are counting cards and are almost certain the dealer has a 10-card.

    I've had great success leaving companies that cost me money, and sticking with the ones that don't.

    2016 Audi TTS 2.0T quattro AWD. 2016 Kia Optima LX 1.6T FWD. Wife 2015 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG FWD.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 7,356
    jpp5862 said:

    kyfdx said:

    My advice: Keep the car until the 5yr/60K powertrain warranty is up, then ditch it.

    If it really worries you that much, spending extra money on a warranty won't help. (except the company and salesperson you buy it from).

    I've been contemplating an extended warranty on the Touareg in case I bought it at the end of the lease. I enjoy it enough to buy it at the end of the lease, until last week. I'm at 10,500 miles and recently noticed it wasn't that smooth during upshifts, especially under moderate acceleration. It felt like you were in a manual transmission car and had slowed down but didn't downshift and then tried to accelerate again and it was bogging down.

    The service tech rode with me and quickly noticed it as a "transmission shudder" and said it certainly wasn't normal and would need to be repaired, maybe even replace the transmission. He explained how complex the transmissions in the Touareg were and thought it might be the stepper motors being out of sync but said they'd have to do some work to make sure. Disappointing but not completely surprising. Shame because I absolutely love the vehicle but makes it hard to feel good about buying it at lease end....
    If the transmission was the only thing to go wrong in 3 years I'd still rate that as a pretty reliable experience. But that is a big IF, and I'm assuming 3 years/36K miles? Unless of course you start to hear that the transmission is a "known" issue. If that's the case, not sure about VW, but I know Audi is known to extend warranties on problematic parts to 7 years/120K miles.
    2016 Audi TTS 2.0T quattro AWD. 2016 Kia Optima LX 1.6T FWD. Wife 2015 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG FWD.
  • henrynhenryn Houston, TXPosts: 1,317

    Drove a Mini for about a 1/2 hour back in 2013 and the test drive back in July but it was such a short test drive, I don't remember much. Really need to get one and drive it for a day or two to see how it goes.

    The Sandman :) B)

    One of my least favorite things about the entire car buying experience is the short test drive. I really think you need to live with a car for a minimum of several days (preferably longer) before making such a decision. If the car you are interested in is available as a rental, I think it makes great sense to rent one for a long weekend or even a week.

    One of the problems with being interested in a Honda (you and that HRV) is that Hondas never seem to show up in rental fleets. And probably not too many Mini's out there in rental fleets either.

    2015 Ford F150 XLT Supercrew, 2013 Passat TDI SE
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 7,356
    henryn said:

    Drove a Mini for about a 1/2 hour back in 2013 and the test drive back in July but it was such a short test drive, I don't remember much. Really need to get one and drive it for a day or two to see how it goes.

    The Sandman :) B)

    One of my least favorite things about the entire car buying experience is the short test drive. I really think you need to live with a car for a minimum of several days (preferably longer) before making such a decision. If the car you are interested in is available as a rental, I think it makes great sense to rent one for a long weekend or even a week.

    One of the problems with being interested in a Honda (you and that HRV) is that Hondas never seem to show up in rental fleets. And probably not too many Mini's out there in rental fleets either.

    I like the idea, but the cars I like are not usually in rental fleets (Honda's, Audi's). The Kia was a change of pace for me as it is definitely rental material. A nice rental, but I can see it being in fleets.
    2016 Audi TTS 2.0T quattro AWD. 2016 Kia Optima LX 1.6T FWD. Wife 2015 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG FWD.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 4,621
    edited September 22
    Had a couple of flashbacks within minutes of each other today to near-purchases I almost made in 2009 before I ended up getting the '09 Lacrosse (which was, in retrospect, a mistake). I don't know if either of these would have been better though. At the time, I looked at and test-drove both an '07 Saturn Aura XE that was on the used lot at a Toyota dealer with an asking price of $12,900, and a 2008 Lincoln MKZ at a Ford dealer lot with an asking of $24K. The Lacrosse CXL ended up costing me just under $25K new thanks to a screaming deal during the dark days of GM and some GM Card money I had.

    I saw the Aura today drive by in traffic - they did not sell well here and are fairly scarce. The design still looks good. I remember seeing the car when it was introduced and liking it a lot. When I drove this one, it had about 25,000 miles and seemed well taken care of. The main turn-off was the colors, silver with gray cloth, which just seemed very bland. It drove OK as I remember, but the 3.5 pushrod V-6 failed to impress me (which it never did in Impalas of that era either). It was OK transportation for the money and probably a decent buy at the time I found this one, but nothing to get excited about.

    Just a couple of minutes later I parked next to an '08 or '09 MKZ in a lot. This was the same color of silver with gray (leather) inside. I thought the 1st-gen MKZ was always sort of half-baked and looked too much like the Fusion it was based upon, but I always loved this dash treatment:




    The one I remembered drove fine and seemed in good condition but I didn't like the sales guy and they were asking what I thought was way too much for it. IIRC it had a lot of miles for a year-old car, maybe 30K or so. The price and mileage drove me to pick the Buick. If I had to do it over again I would have chosen to take the Aura and save a bunch of money. Ah well, live and learn.

    2014 Cadillac ATS4 2.0T, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • sdasda Indian Land, SCPosts: 1,244
    From what I've read reviews on the Lacrosse were favorable, other than a small trunk and some rear visibility issues. Hopefully you didn't have the 2.4 4cyl. which was overburdened with too much car. What made you regret your purchase?

    2010 Pilot EXL-RES, 2013 Accord EX

  • fintailfintail Posts: 38,511
    edited September 22
    Silvercar has a fleet of Audis, Sixt has some, and Hertz has some too. Or use it as an excuse for a trip to Germany, where almost every Audi can be found in fleets (along with every other non-exotic). I had an A8 rental in Germany a few years ago.

    Hondas are the rarity in NA fleets - every now and then a Civic or Accord or lower Acura will pop up somewhere, but it is very uncommon.

    Optima has been a fixture in fleets for years now.
    andres3 said:



    I like the idea, but the cars I like are not usually in rental fleets (Honda's, Audi's). The Kia was a change of pace for me as it is definitely rental material. A nice rental, but I can see it being in fleets.

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 21,633
    this is pretty. I love this color combo. What the heck is it really worth with those miles> Is $7k smoking crack territory? Looks real clean though, and the place it is at has a good reputation.

    https://www.auto.com/cars/bmw-z3-2_5i_roadster-2001-wbacn334x1lk48445


    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 4,621
    sda said:

    From what I've read reviews on the Lacrosse were favorable, other than a small trunk and some rear visibility issues. Hopefully you didn't have the 2.4 4cyl. which was overburdened with too much car. What made you regret your purchase?

    My '09 was the last year of the 1st-generation W-body Lacrosse with the pushrod 3800/4T65E transmission. Aside from the old-man car image, the only real problem it had was a chronically bad transmission that 2 dealers were never able to fix in 2 years of ownership. By that time I hated it, and I was glad to see it gone when I traded it.

    2014 Cadillac ATS4 2.0T, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 20,132
    It is what I would expect for asking retail. Looks like it has new rubber. Those are seat covers, though, aren't they? Anyway, $5k-$6k depending on the details would be a fair range.

    '12 EX35 Journey AWD; '14 Jetta TDI wagon; '98 Volvo S70 base; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 42-car history and counting!

  • sdasda Indian Land, SCPosts: 1,244
    stickguy said:

    this is pretty. I love this color combo. What the heck is it really worth with those miles> Is $7k smoking crack territory? Looks real clean though, and the place it is at has a good reputation.

    https://www.auto.com/cars/bmw-z3-2_5i_roadster-2001-wbacn334x1lk48445


    I like those, too. Are those the original or oem style seat upholstery?

    2010 Pilot EXL-RES, 2013 Accord EX

  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 1,602
    I had one of these, 2000 2.5, basically identical bought in 2005. Aside from the usual 3-series stuff, check that the power top works well and the condition of the fabric; not cheap to replace. Back window will be creased like they all are. These eat tires so it is nice to have fresh ones. I'd still love to have a last year coupe with the 3.0 motor; let everyone else obsess over the M.

    15.5 XC70 T6 / 16 Soul EV - solar powered

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 21,633
    I have never seen those seats. QB is probably right, some kind of cover, but don't really look like slip on ones, more like an actual recovering of the seat (replacement leather).

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 5,077
    First gen MKZ had an interesting interior, but I hate all that silver painted plastic. 
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 9,223
    corvette said:

    First gen MKZ had an interesting interior, but I hate all that silver painted plastic. 

    Yes- it looks like a 1980's vintage stereo receiver.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport / 2014 M235i / 1999 Wrangler / 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2016 i3 REX/2004 X3 2.5i Son's: 2009 328i

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 4,621
    corvette said:

    First gen MKZ had an interesting interior, but I hate all that silver painted plastic. 

    Yes, I remember once I was sitting in it, I realized that it was not as high-quality a dash as it looked in the pictures I had seen.

    2014 Cadillac ATS4 2.0T, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • sdasda Indian Land, SCPosts: 1,244
    ab348 said:

    sda said:

    From what I've read reviews on the Lacrosse were favorable, other than a small trunk and some rear visibility issues. Hopefully you didn't have the 2.4 4cyl. which was overburdened with too much car. What made you regret your purchase?

    My '09 was the last year of the 1st-generation W-body Lacrosse with the pushrod 3800/4T65E transmission. Aside from the old-man car image, the only real problem it had was a chronically bad transmission that 2 dealers were never able to fix in 2 years of ownership. By that time I hated it, and I was glad to see it gone when I traded it.
    My bad, I was thinking of the '10 model. I imagine the Lacrosse was somewhat similar to your Intrigue, though probably rode softer and didn't handle as well. The 3800 has torque, did you miss the 3.5 shortstar? My '00 Intrigue GL (that I should not have sold so quickly) was a good runner and got decent gas mileage.

    2010 Pilot EXL-RES, 2013 Accord EX

  • henrynhenryn Houston, TXPosts: 1,317
    stickguy said:

    this is pretty. I love this color combo. What the heck is it really worth with those miles> Is $7k smoking crack territory? Looks real clean though, and the place it is at has a good reputation.

    https://www.auto.com/cars/bmw-z3-2_5i_roadster-2001-wbacn334x1lk48445


    That looks like a h___ of a lot of fun for $7k. I mean, seriously, just how much fun do you think you can buy for that amount of money these days?
    2015 Ford F150 XLT Supercrew, 2013 Passat TDI SE
  • jpp5862jpp5862 Wilmington, NCPosts: 859
    andres3 said:

    jpp5862 said:

    kyfdx said:

    My advice: Keep the car until the 5yr/60K powertrain warranty is up, then ditch it.

    If it really worries you that much, spending extra money on a warranty won't help. (except the company and salesperson you buy it from).

    I've been contemplating an extended warranty on the Touareg in case I bought it at the end of the lease. I enjoy it enough to buy it at the end of the lease, until last week. I'm at 10,500 miles and recently noticed it wasn't that smooth during upshifts, especially under moderate acceleration. It felt like you were in a manual transmission car and had slowed down but didn't downshift and then tried to accelerate again and it was bogging down.

    The service tech rode with me and quickly noticed it as a "transmission shudder" and said it certainly wasn't normal and would need to be repaired, maybe even replace the transmission. He explained how complex the transmissions in the Touareg were and thought it might be the stepper motors being out of sync but said they'd have to do some work to make sure. Disappointing but not completely surprising. Shame because I absolutely love the vehicle but makes it hard to feel good about buying it at lease end....
    If the transmission was the only thing to go wrong in 3 years I'd still rate that as a pretty reliable experience. But that is a big IF, and I'm assuming 3 years/36K miles? Unless of course you start to hear that the transmission is a "known" issue. If that's the case, not sure about VW, but I know Audi is known to extend warranties on problematic parts to 7 years/120K miles.
    The powertrain warranty is 5/60 but I'd have to read the fine print to see exactly what is covered and depending on what they find see if it would apply. My lease is for 3 yr/15k per year so I could go as high as 45k which would still be under the powertrain warranty. The tech said if the transmission needs to be replaced it's about $8k out of warranty, of course that's stealership prices. So we'll see what they find, then I have 26 months left to see how it performs and take my chances. Even though I'm a card carrying member of CCBA I like this one enough to put my membership on hold. :)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 10,292
    Let's cool it with the "membership on hold crazy talk," ok? Speaking of, this coming Tuesday will be 2 years since I've punched my card

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 20,132
    Ok, I'm trying something new. ha. Looking at the 4 areas I posted earlier, I made myself a chart and threw scores of 1-5 for each vehicle. These are just my initial numbers, and I'm not even sure about reliability. Just my initial guess barring further investigation.


    Car Desire Reliability Fun CostOwnership
    FX35 3 5 4 5
    GLK 4 3 5 3
    H3 5 5 2 4
    Q5 3 2 5 3
    RDX 2 5 5 5
    RX350 1 5 3 5
    SRX 3 4 4 3
    Terrain 3 4 3 4
    XC60 3 4 4 3


    Sooo... I've got the RDX and FX35 in the lead, surprisingly enough, with the H3 close behind. The GLK is only a 15, although my gut was telling me it is in the lead. Huh. Maybe I have to have weighted scoring where desirability means more. Haha.

    '12 EX35 Journey AWD; '14 Jetta TDI wagon; '98 Volvo S70 base; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 42-car history and counting!

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 21,633
    need to throw that in a spreadsheet, and weight the numbers, since all 4 categories can't count the same!

    I actually do this kind of stuff when I am looking (will do for houses too soon, I hope!). And need to have a minimum score for each category, below which is automatic elimination.

    the RDX, is that a 12 or before? Ever look at the current version? You might like it! If nothing else, fast and comfortable, besides dead reliable.

    If I took your list, and worked it for me, I would eliminate the Terrain, FX35, and H3. Just don't like those. Love the S60, even if it might not be the smartest idea! The prior generation RDX does intrigue me.

    I would add the X3 and X1 too.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 4,621
    sda said:


    My bad, I was thinking of the '10 model. I imagine the Lacrosse was somewhat similar to your Intrigue, though probably rode softer and didn't handle as well. The 3800 has torque, did you miss the 3.5 shortstar? My '00 Intrigue GL (that I should not have sold so quickly) was a good runner and got decent gas mileage.

    Yes, the Intrigue was a good car that I had for 6 years and I just loved the Shortstar. But in the last year I owned it a bunch of things went wrong (A/C, brakes, engine coolant leaks) and there was starting to be some rust-through on the left side near the gas filler door which was a chronic issue for a lot of GM cars in the early 2000s. The Buick dealer offered me $4000 for it which was more than it was worth, plus a great deal on the new car, so I took it. Of course from a financial point of view the most sensible thing would have been to drive the wheels off it but what's the fun in that? ;)

    The 3800 in the Lacrosse never felt torquey because of the transmission issues, it always felt like it was slipping and the engine laboring. In fact, one time when it was in the service dept for a few days with the trans out of it, I got an '08 Lacrosse as a loaner and it drive way, way better. I could see why people liked the torque of the 3800. Unfortunately the one I owned never was able to show that off. It's too bad because I liked the quiet driving experience, the much more posh interior than the Intrigue (the Buick's leather seats were awesome), and the smooth ride. I should have just asked them to swap transmissions with the one in the loaner!

    2014 Cadillac ATS4 2.0T, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 20,132
    For me, the bimmers don't fit in more than 1 category, so they got knocked out. The thing with the Terrain is that I am seeing 2016s with less than 15k miles for the mid $20s. That is a helluva value. The 2014s, for example, are still worth over $20k. So it scored strongly in cost to own. RDX would be the turbo SH version. Just makes more sense to me. FX would be '09 and up to get the improved performance and efficiency. I'd prefer the '13 and up GLK, but that pushes the price up quite a bit. 

    '12 EX35 Journey AWD; '14 Jetta TDI wagon; '98 Volvo S70 base; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 42-car history and counting!

  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 7,356
    fintail said:

    Silvercar has a fleet of Audis, Sixt has some, and Hertz has some too. Or use it as an excuse for a trip to Germany, where almost every Audi can be found in fleets (along with every other non-exotic). I had an A8 rental in Germany a few years ago.

    Hondas are the rarity in NA fleets - every now and then a Civic or Accord or lower Acura will pop up somewhere, but it is very uncommon.

    Optima has been a fixture in fleets for years now.


    andres3 said:



    I like the idea, but the cars I like are not usually in rental fleets (Honda's, Audi's). The Kia was a change of pace for me as it is definitely rental material. A nice rental, but I can see it being in fleets.

    Oddly Sixt left San Diego. I think it was a bad apple managing the place poorly. They were always slow and seemed to have a lot of people standing around, but were still slow. The cars were good though. It is were I found an E350 for C-class price.

    As soon as Silvercar opens up in San Diego, I'm all about it! I think all they have is silver loaded quattro A4's though. Closest one is LAX, and San Diegans don't do LA very well.
    2016 Audi TTS 2.0T quattro AWD. 2016 Kia Optima LX 1.6T FWD. Wife 2015 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG FWD.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 7,356
    ab348 said:

    sda said:

    From what I've read reviews on the Lacrosse were favorable, other than a small trunk and some rear visibility issues. Hopefully you didn't have the 2.4 4cyl. which was overburdened with too much car. What made you regret your purchase?

    My '09 was the last year of the 1st-generation W-body Lacrosse with the pushrod 3800/4T65E transmission. Aside from the old-man car image, the only real problem it had was a chronically bad transmission that 2 dealers were never able to fix in 2 years of ownership. By that time I hated it, and I was glad to see it gone when I traded it.
    did they replace the transmission at some point? I'd get quickly frustrated with attempted and failed "fixes" if it didn't quickly escalate to total replacement.
    2016 Audi TTS 2.0T quattro AWD. 2016 Kia Optima LX 1.6T FWD. Wife 2015 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG FWD.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 21,633
    qbrozen said:

    For me, the bimmers don't fit in more than 1 category, so they got knocked out. The thing with the Terrain is that I am seeing 2016s with less than 15k miles for the mid $20s. That is a helluva value. The 2014s, for example, are still worth over $20k. So it scored strongly in cost to own. RDX would be the turbo SH version. Just makes more sense to me. FX would be '09 and up to get the improved performance and efficiency. I'd prefer the '13 and up GLK, but that pushes the price up quite a bit. 

    oh yeah, budget is obviously key, since that drives how old/miled up some of these are going to be.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

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