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Hybrid Gas Mileage Good? Bad? As Expected?

SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
edited March 18 in Toyota
Hybrid owners - how has your gas mileage been? Better than you expected? Worse?
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Comments

  • mcatsmcats Posts: 8
    I'm getting exceptional fuel economy in my Prius... here's my website for it:

    http://homepage.mac.com/priustech/Prius/Menu9.html
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    Great site! Welcome to Edmunds.com
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    Yes, welcome to the forum. Do you have 2 or 3 Prii? Are You going to corner the market like the Hunt brothers? Just kidding, sounds like your expeerience has been very good with the Prius. Look forward to long term reports.
  • mcatsmcats Posts: 8
    Lol, thanks for the welcome! I have one Prius, which I traded in an '01 Prius for. My father is trying to place a pre-order for an RX400H... if he's able to get one then I'll update my website with info about that as well.
  • mcatsmcats Posts: 8
    To be fair... I should bring up that my dealer service person overfilled my oil at the last change (it was in March)... at least according the dipstick. I'm not sure if there is damage or not, so I am having it checked and a little of the oil drained. There are discussions about this on another Prius group (Prius_2g on yahoo groups)... once I find out about the oil issue I will also update my webapge with that info.
  • terryh2uterryh2u Posts: 8
    Although I would like it to be better, we're still getting about 48 MPG in our 2004. I think part of the problem is 2 fold, 1st: We live in a very hilly area and we do alot of highway mileage which doesn't allow the electric motor to perform as well as in city driving and 2nd: The EPA estimates were not designed for real world driving. I just noticed that in the current issue of Consumer Reports that the EPA may start collaborating with them to develop estimates that are far more accurate than the system they use currently.
  • terryh2uterryh2u Posts: 8
    The CR writers list the Prius as getting 44 MPG combined. They tend to be a little throttle happy with their testing though. The 44 MPG still gets accolades from them and are impressed with the 10.5 sec. 0-60 time coming from such an impressive drivetrain...
  • terryh2uterryh2u Posts: 8
    The Honda Civic Hybrid attained 36 MPG in the CR testing. That's far less mileage than the Prius' 44 MPG and it doesn't even have the interior room that the Prius has. Besides, the HCH isn't even a true hybrid...
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Terryh2u:

    ___Let me attempt to enlighten you a bit …

    ___There is a Real Hybrid Mileage Database over at Greenhybrid.com and it would behoove you to take a glance over the various automobiles listed …

    ___Let me give you just a few highlights as to what can be found there in case you don’t think the HCH and the Insight by inference are not real hybrid’s …

    10 Honda Insight’s are posted with 4 beating the EPA combined estimate of 64 mpg.
    55 Toyota Prius II’s are posted with just 4 beating the EPA combined estimate of 55 mpg.
    37 Honda Civic Hybrid’s are posted with 20 beating the EPA combined estimate of 48 mpg.
    6 Toyota Prius I’s are posted with just 1 beating the EPA combined estimate of 48 mpg.

    ___I am sure more Prius II pilots will begin to achieve the magic 55 mpg number as there are quite a few knocking on the door as of this writing.

    ___Do you know of any Prius or Prius II’s that have set world records in the last 4 + years? I know of a particular Insight that did just 2 weeks ago ;-)

    ___Lastly, I have a lmpg more then double that of the Prius II’s CR average so please hold your thoughts about the Honda’s not being real hybrid’s until you see what is actually doable by those supposed non-Hybrid’s.

    ___Finally, Hybrid’s are achieving the EPA estimates posted if driven and setup properly. There is also a much higher percentage of non-Hybrid pilots that have achieved this task without all the setups and techniques used by us Hypermiler’s.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • terryh2uterryh2u Posts: 8
    A true hybrid means that a vehicle can run "Independently" on either gas or electric or both. Only the Prius can do that. Doing research on the hybrids, everything I have read so far has recommended the Prius over the Honda hybrids when everything is taken into consideration. Why else would Ford and Nissan among others, license Toyotas' Hybrid Synergy Drive system to use in their own vehicles. They must know that Toyotas' system is far superior to that of Hondas'. As a point of reference, I did check with greenhybrid.com and the Prius still bests the HCH by 1.5 mpg according to them. The HCH is classified as a Compact car, whereas the Prius is classified as a Midsize car. No contest there. The Insight may get higher mileage, but it certainly isn't a family car, being only a 2 seater. If you are happy with a Honda hybrid, that's great, that you too are a environmentally conscious person that wants to save our planet. To me though, the Prius is head and shoulders above the others...
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Terryh2u:

    A true hybrid means that a vehicle can run "Independently" on either gas or electric or both. Only the Prius can do that.

    ___Really? Did you know that a 2000 Honda Insight could travel ~ 1 mile on the pack alone after you have ran out of fuel? Not with today’s latest ECU updates as Honda took that capability away but it can. What does that make it? A non-hybrid? An all electric “BEV” for short? A pure Hybrid?

    Doing research on the hybrids, everything I have read so far has recommended the Prius over the Honda hybrids when everything is taken into consideration. Why else would Ford and Nissan among others, license Toyotas' Hybrid Synergy Drive system to use in their own vehicles.

    ___If you would have done your research properly, you would have found that a Prius will never pay for its increased costs by fuel savings alone. Why not consider an 04 Accord or Camry PZEV instead? Larger, safer, better performing, much less expensive, and just as green if you purchase one from any of the following including California, New York, Vermont, Maine, or Massachusetts.

    As a point of reference, I did check with greenhybrid.com and the Prius still bests the HCH by 1.5 mpg according to them.

    ___1.5 mpg difference between the Prius II because it is a Hybrid vs. an HCH because it is a non-Hybrid according to you? What is the Prius I since it is achieving just 1.5 mpg less then the Prius II by those documenting their tank data? An also ran?

    The HCH is classified as a Compact car, whereas the Prius is classified as a Midsize car. No contest there.

    ___Not only is the Ford Focus ZX3/ZX5 a compact, it is also larger then the Prius II. Interesting point, isn’t it. I believe Autoweek is now classifying the Prius II as a Compact now given the way Toyota designed it around the EPA cabin specs.

    The Insight may get higher mileage, but it certainly isn't a family car, being only a 2 seater. If you are happy with a Honda hybrid, that's great, that you too are a environmentally conscious person that wants to save our planet. To me though, the Prius is head and shoulders above the others ...

    ___I loved the part about may get higher mileage. Give the average owner a 5-speed Insight and a Prius II and there isn’t any may about it ;-)

    ___Since this thread is supposed to be about gas mileage, the Prius II isn’t giving its owners anywhere near EPA estimates for most purchasers whereas for greater then ½ of those reporting tank over tank from their HCH’s, it is? In both cases, they offer great fuel economy but make sure you understand the above before making any conclusions about your own research

    ___Personally, I would love to remove all the Hybrid HW from my Insight. I would be receiving even more then double what you might receive in your daily single occupant commute in a Prius II. Place a 1.0 L Honda designed iCDTi in her and she would be good for 150 mpg. Even my 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto’s last tank beat most Hybrid drivers last tank … Best practice for fuel economy in a true mid-size automobile? A 2.2 L iCDTi Honda Accord from Europe. Best practice for cleaning the air with low emission standards? Any affordable and available PZEV and not just the Prius II which is slowest car in the entire Toyota lineup available here in the states! Not to mention it is also one of the most costly in comparison to what you can pick up a Toyota Echo, Corolla, or Camry for. Maybe Toyota should place the Corolla’s 1.8 L ICE in the Camry for better fuel economy and ~ the same performance as that of the Prius II? How about placing the 1.5 L from the Echo in the Corolla to match the Prius II’s performance and increase its fuel economy possibly? What about placing the 1.5 L atkinsonized PZEV of the Prius II in an Echo w/ a stick? All 3 would offer even closer fuel economy to that of the Prius II if not better in the case of the Echo but for thousands to tens of thousands of dollars less cost and have similar performance. So what is your point?

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    You are right, it is all a matter of power to weight on the new highly efficient gas & diesel engines. There is no free lunch...
    I would have sworn I read somewhere that Honda licensed some part of their Hybrid technology from Toyota. I think it was on the Insight only. That was back in 2000 when they both hit our market.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    Prius,IMO, is "head and shoulders" above the Honda hybrids - but that is not saying much. Honda is merely dipping its toes, Toyota is up to its waist ! For Prius, Hybrid gas mileage should be better because it offers a more flexible strategic environment, more judicious to the use of electric motors than bolting one directly on the side of the engine as does Honda. But I am averse to the Prius' mechanical engineering solution. It's way too complex and the PSD has dreadful efficiency at low speed where it could be performing better. (Too much power churning.) Fortunately there is a better way. The Series Hybrid offers a path to make serious advances in vehicle propulsion. But are we ever going to see that ? Well, there is hope. Some say that the Japanese have already invented everything. They're just going to give it to us... ......A piece at a time. T2
  • "But I am averse to the Prius' mechanical engineering solution. It's way too complex and ..."

    PSD is way too complex? Differential has at least one Planetary gearset. Automatic transmissions have at least 3 Planetary gearsets. If you are having trouble understand PSD, animation might help.

    image

    The car at rest. The wheels(purple ring) does not move. Therefore, the MG1(yellow) is generating electricity. If HSD does not need to recharge battery, it'll just shut down everything.
    --------------------

    image

    Accelerating. Remember, HSD E-CVT do not shift gears. So, instead of downshifting(increase in torque), HSD taps into high torque 50kw MG2. As you can see below, the wheels starts to move and the MG1 is still generating electricity. That electricity combined with the battery power the MG2 to provide 295lbs-ft torque! This set up allows Prius to have smaller battery since MG1 can also generate on-the-fly.

    For more info: http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/Co- ntents.htm

    "the PSD has dreadful efficiency at low speed where it could be performing better. (Too much power churning.) Fortunately there is a better way. The Series Hybrid offers a path to make serious advances in vehicle propulsion."

    HSD is series-parallel hybrid design. It has advantages of both series and parallel hybrid designs. At low speed, it can run on pure electric and recharge battery when needed. This characteristic is that of a series hybrid. When more power is demanded, combined effort of ICE and electric motors were put into use. This characteristic is that of a parallel hybrid.

    Dennis
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    ___Here is an entirely different take on the whole Hybrid fuel economy discussion.

    ___Tell you what … Let’s put a little wager on your more efficient HSD drivetrain theory in the real world. When you do in fact purchase a Prius II, I will lay $100 cold ones on the fact that Misterme and his HCH w/ CVT will clean the floor with you over a given lengthy distance or terrain in the fuel economy or absolute range department. Other then deep inside a city possibly given the Prius can run for a few blocks on the pack alone … If you would care to take on my Insight, well let’s just say I will up the wager just for the excitement of it all. Let us say title for title? And you can drive 35 mph or less if you would like 8-) To make it even more interesting, I will even spot you 500 miles in a total range run!

    ___As it stands, I know > half of the HCH owners that are reporting tank over tank in the real world hybrid database are beating EPA combined estimates. The Prius is a bit tougher nut to crack as has been mentioned so many times before. It is just tougher to reach 55 mpg as a lifetime average in one is all … When and or if you finally do hit 52 mpg and with a range of over 750 miles, you might just begin to compete with my lowly 03 Corolla w/ Auto!

    ___Fortunately for all hybrid drivers no matter if it’s in the HCH, Insight, or Prius, we have a few tricks available to us that our regular ICE brethren don’t have access too. With a bit of practice, these things (hybrid’s) will kill a regular ICE when setup and driven properly. The big word is if setup and driven properly …

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • " I will lay $100 cold ones on the fact that Misterme and his HCH w/ CVT will clean the floor with you over a given lengthy distance or terrain in the fuel economy department."

    Putting up a fight between me and Misterme? No, thanks but nice try.

    Dennis
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    ___Not a fight in the least but a simple hybrid against hybrid run for mileage or range. I know Misterme places his and his HCH’s capabilities on the line each and every day as he drives to work and back. That 800 foot climb to and from is one nasty SOB as well! You on the other hand seem to speak accolades about a particular Hybrid from behind a PC monitor instead of the windscreen like the rest of us in the real world …

    ___Or you could always take me on in a Hybrid for Hybrid grab. I wonder what I could Ebay a brand new Prius II for anyway ;-)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    I believe Consumer Reports averaged 36 with their HCH and 44 with the 04 Prius. Other magazines have had similar results. From what I've been seeing on the boards there definitely is an overall disparity between the two vehicles in favor of the Pruis. I personally don't see what the HCH offers over a conventional Civic. At least with the Prius you not only get great mileage, you get a ton of extra features. Maybe that's why there is NO waiting list for the HCH. Sort of reminds me of why there is ALWAYS a line at Cheesecake Factory, but the "no name" restaurant down the corridor does well with the overflow of customers. HCH is just getting Prius customers disgusted with the wait.
  • "You on the other hand seem to speak accolades about a particular Hybrid from behind a PC monitor instead of the windscreen like the rest of us in the real world"

    A cheap personal attack. You do this when you are in the loosing side of the argument. Did VCM discussion broke the last straw? We all know your pattern now, Wayne. You are incapable of connecting dots to get the big picture. That is the very reason you fail to see the long-term. Your car engine power and fuel economy estimates are way off as well. I am not going to zoom low down to your personal attacking level and pull out "your wife card" on you because you can beat me with experience. Delete msg#22 or I am going to ask a moderator to do so.

    Dennis
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    Dennis... why don't you and I take a drive out to Illinois. We'll take my Prius and go there in "style". LOL!!!
  • That's a great idea. ;-D When we get there, we can even have Wayne ride on Prius making total of 3 ppl. How would three of us fit in his Insight to do the comparison, unless Wayne wants to ride in the trunk? How about 4 or 5 ppl and see the mileage I'll get in both hybrids? Oh wait, Insight can't handle more than 2 ppl. More than 150lbs cargo or passengers would make an Insight dangerous to drive.

    Dennis

    P.S: On mid Aug, I am off to Cancun for a week.
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    Dennis..we'll have to make the trip in early Fall. I am going on a two week European cruise Jul 31 thru Aug 14. I will have my laptop in my stateroom to check in. May we can get two other folks to join us on our trip to Illinois! Dennis.. I'll let you do most of the driving to REALLY get our mileage up. Oh.. Dennis.. watch your head.. it's pretty tricky getting in and out of that Insight!!
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    Let's see... to start with.. the HCH is just plain boring. How's that for starters. It doesn't have:

    Hatchback
    Smart/Entry
    Stealth Mode (I can travel 42 MPG on electric.. can you?)
    Built in NAV
    Way better rear seating
    Vehicle Stability Control
    Nifty buttons on the steering wheel for climate contol, radio etc
    Great styling (can't argue with the Prius's success!)
    Electric A/C (what does yours have?)
    Bluetooth (WAY cool feature)
    ..and that marvelous feature of the "START" button... a wonderful often missed safety feature of the Prius (NO KEY TO JAB YOU in an accident)

    Shall I go on... or is it hurting too much?

    I go by the major mags and consumer reports and ALL of them got better mileage with the Prius. You know something? Even if the HCH DID get better mileage than a Prius.. I'd STILL get the Prius!
  • terryh2uterryh2u Posts: 8
    It seems xcel doesn't seem to understand that this is a board for PRIUS owners to discuss their PRIUS, NOT Honda hybrids!!!
    I suggest he go to the Honda board to expouse his Hondas' virtues. I stand by my statements made
    previously. See #14. Thank you...
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    Actually the board you are in is generalized for hybrids. Wayne can be testy at times.. I know.
  • "Yes, you get in real owner numbers 1.6MPG difference "

    I thought you didn't want to continue comparision between HCH and Prius. Wait, what comparison? Consumer Report compared 4 door family sedan and HCH didn't make it there because the acceleration of HCH is too slow. In that comparison, Prius gets double the mileage than other cars that were compared to. MPG is not the only thing in the equation. Every little things add up and the bigger and more powerful the hybrids get, the more difference you will see.

    It looks like IMA HAH tuned for power is starting to lack in the low emission department already while HSD SUVs with more power, are still going to be super ultra low emission.

    It would be nice if Emunds has online database of each vehicle fuel economy. BTW, HCH should be compared to the classic Prius because they both are compact sedans. In real world, I believe even classic Prius gets better mpg than HCH.

    Dennis
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    You can't use hyper milers as a basis for comparison. I believe the averages Consumer Reports achieved are numbers that the average owners are getting. If I count my winter mileage in, I am at 44.7 overall. Not bad considering a great many miles were interstate speeds of 75-80.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    A cheap personal attack. You do this when you are in the loosing side of the argument.

    ___Given you apparently don’t own a hybrid, have probably never driven a hybrid, and are probably afraid of losing the real world challenge I offered, I would say you have much to learn about real world hybrid efficiencies. In other words, the real world is a lot more relevant imho.

    You are incapable of connecting dots to get the big picture. That is the very reason you fail to see the long-term. Your car engine power and fuel economy estimates are way off as well.

    ___Really? Like how the Prius is the slowest of all Toyota sedans offered to us in the states from 0 - 30 and 0 - 60. You seem to bring up the 30 - 50 numbers but the only place that has been posted is Toyota’s own press release and they didn’t even post a time to accomplish the task! I already know how slow the HCH and Insight are and I have made no bones about it. The dots you are failing to connect here is how efficient an Atkinson cycle ICE is (4% increase by most accounts with a > then 4% loss in torque).

    Your car engine power and fuel economy estimates are way off as well.

    ___I post my fuel economy results on an ~ 10 day basis, how about you? As for power and efficiency, my numbers are way off? You not only missed that the HAH is supposedly capable of 38 mpg on the highway (not 32 like you thought) which does overtake the std. 240 HP ICE of the Accord V6 by a mere 26%. You also mentioned that the HAH will not be a SULEV? The 240 HP ICE of the Accord V6 is already a ULEV-II so it might yet still be SULEV rated when it arrives later on this year?

    I am not going to zoom low down to your personal attacking level and pull out "your wife card" on you because you can beat me with experience. Delete msg#22 or I am going to ask a moderator to do so

    ___You just did and no. If you believe your particular choice of automobile is so efficient, take the challenge.

    ___Djasonw:

    why don't you and I take a drive out to Illinois. We'll take my Prius and go there in "style". LOL!

    When we get there, we can even have Wayne ride on Prius making total of 3 ppl. How would three of us fit in his Insight to do the comparison, unless Wayne wants to ride in the trunk?

    ___Don’t you live in NY? With your hybrid driving skills, you probably couldn’t make it across Ohio before running out of gas. So much for your “At least with the Prius you not only get great mileage” statement when Corolla drivers are surpassing your personal best(s) …I will be more then happy to take your new Prius away from you if you are interested in the challenge of this Insighter and I will allow you the same extra 500 miles :-) And with the Corolla, I know it fits 4 and has received better fuel economy and range then you have ever seen so far. Maybe you need to learn to drive a bit better because you are having problems in the fuel economy area by the sounds of your mileage you have discussed to date.

    Dennis..we'll have to make the trip in early Fall.

    __Your on! Title for title. I will throw in the Corolla for good measure just so you don’t feel that you lost your Prius II for something less then close to equal value …

    ___Terry2hu:

    It seems xcel doesn't seem to understand that this is a board for PRIUS owners to discuss their PRIUS, NOT Honda hybrids!

    ___Did you forgot to read the title of this thread? It is called “Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected?”.

    ___Let us recap and bring the thread closer to its calling … So far, the following applies as reported in the Real Hybrid Mileage Database:

    20 of 37 HCH drivers that have reported their actual tank over tank data are exceeding combined EPA estimates or 54%.

    4 of 10 Honda Insight drivers that have reported their tank over tank data are exceeding combined EPA estimates or 40%.

    1 of 6 Prius I drivers that have reported their tank over tank data are exceeding combined EPA estimates or 16%.

    4 of 55 Prius II drivers that have reported their tank over tank data are exceeding combined EPA estimates or 7%.

    ___Given the title of the thread, who is more likely to be satisfied with their mileage, the majority that are beating EPA estimates or the majority that are not? Fortunately, there will be more Prius II drivers exceeding the EPA combined estimates in the near future but as of this writing, I can see more dissatisfied Prius drivers then HCH drivers in regards to their particular Hybrid’s fuel economy from those posting their tank over tank data to date.
     
    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • "Given you apparently don’t own a hybrid, have probably never driven a hybrid, and are probably afraid of losing the real world challenge I offered..."

    Since you are the one who wanted this challenge, you will pay for the expense and for my time. Explain in detail, how you want it to be with precise rules of engagement. If you accept it, I'll seriously think about it.

    Dennis
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    Actually Wayne.. we won't take the Prius. It will take too long to get there. We'll fly out there and meet you for the challenge. I doubt you'll show up.

    I wouldn't want all those Corollas passing me in the left lane! Imagine this shmuck is knocking the fact that I am getting close to 50 MPG with average speeds of 75-80 MPH with 35 PSI fr and 33 rr. Can't do that will a Corolla. Maybe with an Insight, but I do get claustrophobic, hence my aversion to that toy.
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