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Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL

kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
edited March 18 in Acura
Seems like a viable comparison for performance and style. The Legacy GT Limited is not quite as luxurious as the TSX and TL, but performs just as well, if not better than either. It is also close in size to both.

Interestingly, the Legacy GT Limited fits right in between the two cars in price.
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Comments

  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,676
    I'm not sure is this car belongs here, as it is larger and more expensive.

    The TSX and the GT both have a 105.1" wheelbase and are priced in the same neighborhood, so yes, I'd say say they're a fair competitor.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The bottom line is AWD. Street prices right now put a GT Ltd about $2 grand higher than a TSX with roughly the same equipment, except AWD.

    Coincidentally, AWD usually costs about $2 grand. ;-)

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,676
    What juice said.

    AWD becomes an ever increasingly important factor as the horsepower rises, as FWD has trouble handling high-HP vehicles, resulting in torque steer. Several magazines have commented on that in regards to the TL. Not sure if the the TSX has enough power for that to be a problem yet.

    Bob
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    So, I do have friends looking in this price range that are considering all 3, The TL for luxury and performance, the TSX for luxury and price (which by-the-way is very close in interior dimensions to the TL), and the GT limited for performance and AWD.

    I was just trying to get peoples comments comparing the three.

    Like I said - they are close:
    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessio- - nid=AkcN1tH67goObynEaslV1PPSWf4sRIXNVnhtnTUvUtQa4lfopDAT!-1216595- - 036?styleid=100278144&styleid=100396965&styleid=100358503- - &maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=specs

    Pricing TSX Legacy TL
    MSRP $26,490 $28,495 $32,850
    Invoice $24,147 $26,188 $29,937

    Dimensions are comparible as well, all the way down to the gas tank.
  • goneskiiangoneskiian Posts: 381
    Unless you're shopping for a wagon! ;-)

    Too bad Acura/Honda don't bring over their estate version of the TSX (European Accord).

    -Ian
  • rob_mrob_m Somewhere North of BostonPosts: 797
    Kevin, thank you for starting this thread. You have basically said what I have been thinking for quite some time.

    My position on this subject: I love Subarus. I have purchased 4 in the last 12 years. Sometime soon, I will be needing to replace #3 - my fully loaded 99 GT LTD 30th with 105k relatively trouble free miles. The few problems would probably be catagorized as 'dealer related nusiance' issues.

    I have been holding off for two reasons. First, to pay off the 03 Outback. Second, for the arrival of the 05 GT.

    Given the reliability and enjoyment of my current vehicle, I would have drop dead replaced my GT LTD with another GT LTD. Until I saw a brand new grey TL in the parking lot at work, and started researching.

    Once the pricing of the GT was available I started my comparison. I found the TL to be larger, may perform equally (270hp vs 250hp), have more features, and cost more. The TSX cost less, has more features, and may not perform as well (200hp vs 250hp).

    IMO, all are very nice looking vehicles, although I would have to say that the TL is certainly the best of the three. The TSX is the best value. The GT will probably outhandle both. [disclaimer on] I have not yet driven the GT. As a matter of fact, I have purposely stayed far away from the dealer, as I may buy on the spot. [disclaimer off]

    AWD might not be as big as a factor as in the past. DW is not working, and I have taken to using the Outback in bad weather and on weekends with the family. The GT is basically used for my 90 mile round trip to work.

    Finally, is service after the sale. I believe that my local dealer has lost touch with their core customers. The few repairs under warrantee (I did the 7/100) were somewhat painful. 5 trips before an intermittant speedometer problem could be fixed, 2 years with power antenna problems, 50,000 miles of various oil leaks - dealer: we can't find a leak, Rob: there is oil all over the engine, my driveway, and smoke comes out of the hood scoop when I stop the car. Dealer, maybe someone is parking in your driveway with a car that leaks, and you picked up oil when driving. True story.

    I apologize for the long post. This is probably the most I have said on the boards. The reality is that people who like Subarus may be looking at other cars for whatever reason. Any thoughts and comments are certainly welcome! Rob M.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    I went for a Subaru-sponsored road test of the new Legacy/Outback which consisted of three laps around a go-kart type track. There wasn't enough time to form a detailed impression but, I can say the price/size/performance/amenities make the Subies logical cross-shop comparisons to the TL & TSX. The impression that I did come away with are: The interior quality is nice but a notch below that of the Acuras'; Less passenger room than the TL and more than the TSX; Trunk space is very good; Both the turbo and H6 lack low-end grunt but once they "came on" power was good (Subaru didn't offer any non-turbo 4-cyl models for the test. I think I know why. Judging from the performance of the 6 and turbo, the naturally aspirated 4 may be a dog); The AWD is definitely worth the extra dough. Even when driven like a go-kart, the cars were balanced with almost no hint of plowing; I thought Subaru cut corners somewhat with a few cheapo pieces such as the chintzy wood trim, a crude prop rod for the hood, and no memory driver-seat at any price.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Posts: 4,487
    Well, the Subaru guys know me as a long time Subaru fan, but my wife just bought a TSX. We cross-shopped a Legacy GT Ltd in the process. Now that I have had a few days to learn about the TSX, my take is that it's a better value from a feature standpoint, but the 2.5 H4 turbo, 5EAT, and AWD are compelling reasons to get a Legacy if you don't mind spending more money for less content.

    Some of the features the TSX offers that the Legacy GT Ltd doesn't:

    -Nav option (likely to be available on the 06 GT)
    -Stability control
    -HID headlights
    -fold-down rear seat
    -speed sensitive wipers
    -all windows down/up from key/remote
    -Homelink buttons
    -auto up driver's window (both cars have auto down)
    -10 minutes of power after key-off (for windows, sunroof)
    -telescoping steering column (both cars have tilt)
    -audio controls on steering wheel (GT has shifter buttons instead)

    Both cars are quiet, but the GT is more muffled than the TSX with less noise from the tires and road.

    The GT accelerates and handles better than the TSX (no surprise given AWD vs. FWD traits). Ironically, I think the GT rides a little softer too.

    The GT has a smidge more interior room, probably not enough to matter.

    Both interiors are top rate, but I have to give the edge to Acura for including more convenience features and providing more useful (and innovative) illumination. I do think the Legacy GT interior looks better in daylight, however.

    The TSX gets better gas mileage while still offering plenty of power and torque for everyday driving. The iVTEC 2.4 inline 4-cylinder really impresses me with it's linear power delivery and refinement. Once again I am reminded that Honda makes some sweet engines.

    The GT is really fast, and the 5EAT transmission is spectacular with seamless rapid fire shifts. It offers a very memorable driving experience unlike any other auto-trans car I have driven (including the TSX).

    The GT 5-spd shifter and transmission is quite good, but the TSX 6-spd is clearly superior. Again, this is a reminder that Honda makes some of the best manual gearboxes around. Simply spectacular to operate. We got an auto TXS, so I can only dream about this item...

    The fit and finish of both cars is good, but the Acura seems to have more precision in the way things go together. Body gaps look smaller too (but I have not measured).

    Both cars look great in my opinion.

    That's all I can think of at the moment -- I'll add more comparisons as they come to mind.

    Craig
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    I know the TL is a little bigger, and imho looks great, but the FWD will be a disadvantage in handling as well as torque steer vs. AWD. AWD does help in the handling perspective.

    With that said, the TL has quick steering and quick reaction time, which makes driving on the highway a joy. Not quite at the level of my WRX, but not far behind.

    I would expect the Legacy to be very adept at this as well, and superior in winding roads.

    Same with the TSX in this respect.

    The Acuras will be superior to the Legacy in luxury, name, and content, but the Legacy GT will probably be at least as good, if not superior in performance to both.

    Waiting to see the 0-60 numbers for the GT.
  • tsytsy Posts: 1,551
    I think all 3 are good cars, and it just comes down to what you want. The Subaru seems to have the best performance (driving 270hp through the front wheels is not what I consider balanced performance), the TL is the most comfortable and luxurious (although still very fast), and the TSX is the least expensive while still being comfortable and sporty. The Subaru seems to be made very well but I can't imagine it being more reliable than an Acura.

    Certainly if you need AWD it cuts down your choices and makes everything else is moot, which is why I bought the GT limited. What good is a car if it doesn't get you where you need to go at any time? After 5 days of driving it around in good weather, I have zero regrets. It's a great car! I can't wait until it snows!

    My $.02
    tom
  • c_hunterc_hunter Posts: 4,487
    The TSX calls for oil changes on 10K mile intervals, and oil filter changes on 20K mile intervals. As far as I know, the Legacy is still on a 7500 mile interval for both the oil and filter. So that's quite a bit less maintenance on the TSX.

    At least in the auto transmission TSX, there is no hint of torque steer. I didn't notice it when driving the manual-trans TSX either. Honda must have improved the way they get the power to the road, since my 97 Prelude torque-steered with less power!

    Tell you what, if Acura offered a TSX wagon, I'd seriously give it a look. In addition to AWD, the main reason I am considering a Legacy is to get a wagon (though we were looking at sedans for my wife).

    Craig
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    "At least in the auto transmission TSX, there is no hint of torque steer."

    Well, that's probably because the TSX has very little torque! :)
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    Have not driven the TSX, so can not comment.

    Too bad Acura rebadged the Legend as the TL or else we could have had a Legacy vs. Legend debate! :-)

    The TL has quicker steering. Feels like you can throw it around a little more. The Legacy seems to have more power between the 30-60, but the TL feels like it has more below 30 and above 60.

    Handling - both are good.

    The Legacy's interior is much improved with the nice wood trim (looks very real). Personally think it is a toss-up.

    I did not drive the manual though. Think the Legacy would really come alive with a manual. Maybe it was the car I had, but think the auto was a little too calm for me.

    Basically - auto - TL, manual - probably the Legacy but would need to testdrive both.
  • ryanl1ryanl1 Posts: 55
    Can't go wrong with any of these cars.Have basically decided on GT Ltd with TSX a close second and TL,G35,Mazda 6 runnerups.Only problem is after researching for 6 months I should know better to wait a few months for impulsiveness to die down and any new car kinks to come out.

    bodble2:there was one non turbo legacy wagon at the subie event which i drove once and it was unspectacular but adequate.
  • dcm61dcm61 Posts: 1,465
    Too bad Acura rebadged the Legend as the TL or else we could have had a Legacy vs. Legend debate! :-)

    Actually the TL started life as the Vigor. The former Legend is now the RL.

    DaveM
  • ntk1ntk1 Posts: 57
    I have just purchased a Legacy GT sedan 5 sp, my previous car was a TL type S. In arriving at my decision, the 2 most significant (and related) factors were :-
    1) AWD (I live in MA)
    2) torque steer on new TL
    If the Acura could have offered AWD and perhaps bump the HP to nearer 300 it would have got my $'s. I have so far been pleased with the decision with one exception - that is an engine stuttering/hesitation problem between 1500 and 3000 rpm (which I have bored most people with over in the 2005 legacy forum).
    The Legacy definately has superior grip than my TLS and significantly better brakes but I miss the upscale interior sometimes. However we should all count our blessings that we can discuss and choose between cars of this calibre.

    Pete
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    "The Legacy seems to have more power between the 30-60, but the TL feels like it has more below 30 and above 60."

    Yep, that was my impression too.

    I also echo what Pete said about the brakes on the Subie. In the Subie event, everyone took turns flooring the cars down a straightaway and then stand on the brakes at the end. I was surprised at the performance of the brakes even after all the abuse. There was also no discernible fade.
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    Tested them, and they seemed to be at least as responsive as my WRX.
  • ryanl1ryanl1 Posts: 55
    The brakes were incredible.I kept stopping too early and wished I could have gone to 60mph/100kmh.

    Dear Host:My flag has changed from a Canucklehead to a Yankee flag and I don't know why.Is it because Subie is made in U.S.A.?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    bring over their estate version of the TSX

    Amen to that.

    The next RL is getting SH-AWD, which looks very promising, and one photo even showed the US Accord to demonstrate that feature. So it could spread.

    If so, that puts more pressure on Subaru to distinguish itself. Right now the two major advantages (the others are minor) are AWD and the wagon body style.

    -juice
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Hey, welcome to the USA! :-)

    I can't tell you why it changed, but I can tell you (I think) how to fix it.

    Use the "Preferences" link on the left side of the page instead of the "Profile" link - you will see a place there to explicitly set your flag. It used to be that you controlled the flag by location in your profile, but that's not the case any more.

    As far as I can tell, they snuck this change in on us, and for what purpose I haven't a clue. :-)
  • grove4grove4 Posts: 95
    My neighbor bought the new TL and we switched with my GT.We pretty much both felt the GT was a quicker car everywhere across the rev range.The GT is a 5sp and I have not driven a TL 6sp to compare that.Even though that is alot of power only to the front wheels I cant imagine that it would hook up.Funny thing is the Legacy was more quiet than the TL.Also the steering is quicker and more alive on the Legacy.The TL does have more room in the back seat and a great stereo auto windows and rear windows that go all the way down.And the TL is a notch up on the interior.Bottom line is the Legacy seems to be more of a true sports sedan.But the TL will pamper you a little more.
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    That might explain a great deal. I have heard that the Legacy with auto can sometimes be more sluggish than the manual than usual due to the turbo.

    I remember the TL having very quick steering, I do not remember being overly impressed with the Legacy GT. Since there was some lag between tests. This was probably why there was a descrepancy on my part.

    Thanks for the observations chadm grove
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,676
    needs to spool up, just like all turbos. On the GT the spool up time, aka "turbo lag," is not nearly as bad as it is on some other turbos; the WRX for example.

    Turbos work best with manual trannys IMO. You can better monitor the lag simply by revving the engine more as you let out the clutch. You can't do that with an automatic unless you hold down the brake with your left foot, not exactly a great idea...

    Bob
  • grove4grove4 Posts: 95
    The TL has a alot lower rpm at highway speed than the legacy.I sometimes think the legacy should have another gear.Yes, my performance observation would be different with two manuels but I can only report on what I was able to drive.I think the legacys peak torque comes in at a lower rpm than the TL so it just picks up quicker.The legacy is priced pretty well when you compare it to a TL especially if you live somewhere with inclement weather.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    grove4: you're very perceptive. In fact the Legacy GT has the quickest steering of any of the Legacys or Outbacks. It gets a quick ratio, unique to the GT model alone (not even the Outback XT gets it).

    kevin: FWIW, reports on lag with the GT automatic vary widely, and we think it has to do with the adaptive nature of the tranny.

    Bob and I got a chance to experience broken-in cars at Las Vegas motor speedway, and I felt very little lag. The tranny even holds a gear when the lateral g sensor feels that you are in the middle of a turn. It even blips the throttle to match revs when you down shift.

    However, some folks go test drive green cars, not broken in, and report more lag than we felt. Some have even driven more than one and felt differences between those. Perhaps the trannies had yet to adapt to an aggressive driving style?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,676
    Bob and I got a chance to experience broken-in cars at Las Vegas motor speedway, and I felt very little lag.

    That's true, but those were "performance" runs and not really representative of daily driving. I have since driven an XT manual, and again no problems whatsoever with turbo lag. I look forward to driving an XT or GT automatic under similar conditions.

    In any event, I really don't think turbo lag is a problem. In the WRX it *could* be a problem, but not with the XT or GT.

    Bob
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