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Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL

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Comments

  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    Whatever. If you go and buy a new Mazda6 right now, you won't have to worry about the rust issue. I'm starting to believe that I won't have to worry about it either because it hasn't gotten worse. And my car had 2 recalls. Again, not a big deal for a first year car if you ask me.

    I haven't had one CEL, no clutch problems, and my cloth seats are fine. Knock on wood.

    Go check out the Accord and Camry threads and you'll see that there are pissed off people in there also. A guy just traded his new Accord because of brake rotor problems. Rattles seem to be a problem with many new cars. Can you imagine how pissed off you'd be if you bought a $40K car that rattled? Well, it happens.

    IMO, the only truly concerning problem with the first year Mazda6s was the rust issue. CELs and rattles and a few recalls aren't a huge deal IMO, especially when a rental car is part of the warranty. FWIW, CR doesn't recommend the Mazda6 anymore and I'm very curious as to what they're basing that on. I'd bet the Mazda6 got docked hard because of the rust issue. CR figures those kinds of problems into their reliability ratings.

    I mean, if people can forgive VW after numereous window clip and ignition coil failures, a rattle or two seems insignificant. The VW problems left you with windows wide open and your car stranded on the side of the road....and it took them YEARS to address those issues.

    Back on topic....I wouldn't be concerned about problems with the TSX, Legacy, or TL, although I'm still wary of Honda automatic transmissions.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I followed the Mazda rust issue early on but dropped out of those threads when it started to get ugly.

    But unless they replaced your door's sheetmetal, I would not call it resolved.

    Also, spiked soap made the sheet metal rust? Aren't they using galvanized steel? What does it say about the quality of the sheet metal used if some soap lubricant used to get some trim pieces on got the metal to rust?

    And why have some 2004 owners complained if they stopped using that spiked soap?

    I own a Miata and enjoy it thoroughly, BTW.

    I agree with your conclusion about the head gasket problem, I'm just sharing my experience from the Subaru threads here. Complete engine failures haven't been occuring. In theory they could, sure.

    But yes, to get back on topic, the engine in the new Legacy GT has not showed any signs of gasket failures so far, nor has the TSX engine showed signs of oil leaks/engine fires. I believe the TL's tranny issues are also sorted out.

    Don't worry, be happy.

    -juice
  • c_hunterc_hunter Posts: 4,487
    Not all body panels are galvanized. And even if they are, the zinc plating only sticks to the surfaces of the sheetmetal, not the edges where it may have been stamped or cut (thus exposing raw steel). For that matter, the welds can rust too. In the regions they were having the rust problem, it seems positive it was coming from the edges of the panels or where there were welds.

    I think they must have a lot of regions where paint was not protecting raw steel, hence the rust started and then bled through the paint.

    Craig
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    "But unless they replaced your door's sheetmetal, I would not call it resolved."

    Well, it's not the door's sheetmetal with the issue, it's the window frame weld spots under the weather stripping. I check the situation often, and it doesn't appear to getting any worse. I suspect it won't be a serious issue for as long as I own the car, but maybe it will be 10 years or so down the road, but even then, you won't see it unless you look under the weatherstipping. Also, I check around the bottom and sides of the doors every time I wash my car and there is no sign of rust, and I'd see it easily because my car is silver. New door panels wouldn't have made me any happier anyway because they would've had to paint them and tear apart the inner door panels and reassemble them.

    "Also, spiked soap made the sheet metal rust?"

    No, it's not the sheet metal, it's the welds on the window frame that hold the weatherstripping sash in place.

    "And why have some 2004 owners complained if they stopped using that spiked soap?"

    Apparantley, early 2004s were also affected, I'm not sure of the exact build dates though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Interesting, guys. Still seems like a good paint job by itself should have protected it.

    -juice
  • c_hunterc_hunter Posts: 4,487
    I think the problem is that they can't possibly get paint into that region. They spot welded a small channel onto the door frame (the weatherstrip slides into the channel). The interface between the channel and the door frame is not air/water tight but it's pretty much impossible to paint. In fact, being a real thin gap, it would wick water right in. So they were asking for trouble with this design. If not soapy water, I am sure rainwater would eventually cause the same problem.

    They basically need to seal that gap. If you look on the edges of our doors and other body stampings where sheetmetal comes together in a seam, it is usually sealed for this very reason. Any raw edges, unpainted metal, or seams that are not sealed are asking for a rust problem.

    Craig
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Hey folks, we're pretty far off-topic here ... Maybe you can find a Mazda discussion where this would be appropriate.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Good suggestion. Haven't seen rust on a Subie since the Loyale models.

    -juice
  • newcar31 -CR cited problems with brakes, fuel delivery systems and electrical problems. The M6 actually had one of the worst reliablity ratings in its class.

    BTW, the Mazda MPV and Mazda RX8 also had dismal reliability, and were removed from their recommended list.

    Personally, I think Mazda, Subarau, and Acura are all going to make reasonably reliable cars, but that is just my opinion.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The MPV surprised me because it was ranked highly for years, ahead of the Odyssey in fact.

    The 6, I've heard plenty of complaints, so that didn't really surprise me. Still, an equal amount of people love their 6s.

    The MazdaSpeed version will be interesting, for sure.

    -juice
  • The MazdaSpeed version is going to be built in Japan and I'll bet it will be as realiable as each of the vehicles we are discussing in this thread, and it will also be competitive in terms of performance. But, I guess we'll have to wait to see.
  • IMO, ateixeira has asked a couple of good questions in trying to confirm your story.

     

    It is not that we don't trust you but like Prez Reagan said, "trust but verify".

     

    Nothing wrong with verifying, especially in the world wide net.

     

    So please answer his questions/concerns: "please share the last 4 digits of your VIN, I'll have an SoA rep look up your case (if it's even true)... At least tell me the dealer, again I'll have an SoA rep look up 3 catastrophic engine failures all from a single dealer within a certain time frame."

     

    Thanks in advance, Nelson
  • Funny - I thought I was going to read about Subarus and Acuras...
  • Amen! So back on topic...I drove an '05 Outback LL Bean Edition this past weekend and I was definitely impressed. However, it seemed to me the transmission (auto) hesitated before upshifting. Subaru may have set it up so that it revved a bit higher before shifting but it was definitely noticeable when compared with my Passat. Although, the TSX is also rev happy and contributes to the "fun" factor, my impression is that the Acura transmission is a bit more refined in terms of shifting.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Get the Legacy GT, really. It adds Sportshift buttons right on the steering wheel, so you regain control. Better yet get the manual.

     

    The GT has a quicker steering ratio, lower profile tires, stiffer springs, less weight to haul around, and Sportshift controls. Plus it's cheaper!

     

    The GT is the sporty one, the Outback is tuned to absord big speed bumps and to travel on gravel roads and snow.

     

    So if you like the TSX' sporting personality, compare it to a GT, is what I'd recommend.

     

    -juice
  • terrylterryl Posts: 34
    Is anyone aware of changes planned for 2006 yet? Anyone know when the 2006 will be out?

     

    Thanks!

    Terry
  • c_hunterc_hunter Posts: 4,487
    I have an Outback XT with the 5EAT, and my wife has a TSX (also 5 speed auto). Without doubt, the Subaru transmission is better.

     

    You may have inadvertently put the transmission into sport mode, where it delays upshifts to higher RPMs and downshifts more quickly (personally, I like this mode better!). In normal mode, it shifts up at lower RPMs and is real hesistant to downshift unless you poke the throttle.

     

    Subaru's 5EAT has three modes:

     

    1) normal -- when you put the shifter in D

     

    2) sport -- when you slide the shifter left from D (but don't do the +/- routine)

     

    3) sport-shift -- where you actually do the +/- shifting.

     

    I find sport mode to be the best, and it really makes the turbo engine shine. It is very impressive how quickly it can snap off upshifts under full throttle.

     

    I find normal mode OK for leisurely driving. Finally, I find sportshift mode to be a lame replacement for real shifting (manual trans) and rarely ever use it.

     

    As far as manual transmissions go, the Acuras win by a long shot here. I find the Subaru 5MT in the Outback/Legacy to be lacking in shifter accuracy and feel.

     

    Craig
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    2006s should be out this summer. One big addition should be a Nav option.

     

    My wife fell in love with a dark blue GT Limited sedan at the Philly Show, and the only thing it doesn't have that she wants is Nav. So a 2006 for her would be perfect.

     

    I'm not sure it's in our budget, but we may pick up a year-old used one in 2007.

     

    -juice
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    The GT looks sharp. Neighbour just got one in white. Wish they could do away with the boy-racer hood scoop though. Would they put the H6 in the GT, do you think? All else being equal, I prefer normally aspirated power.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    You're thinking Legacy Spec B. That's the H6 with a 6 speed manual now sold in Japan.

     

    Nice thing is it gets bigger rims and an overall sportier package.

     

    The turbo gives you a nice kick in the pants, though. I don't think the H6 would be as quick, perhaps more linear though.

     

    There is a small chance that I'll get a chance to drive a Spec B that Subaru is bringing to the US for testing and evaluation. Hope so!

     

    -juice
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    I drove a H6 Outback and the GT, albeit briefly, during a Subie-sponsored test drive event, and I didn't notice any significant difference in acceleration -- neither one was as quick as my TL though, and both were a bit slow off the line. During the slalom, the GT, surprisingly, build boost fairly quickly during brake/throttle transitions.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    both were automatics. The steering wheel shift buttons were "neat", but I likely wouldn't use them much in real life, just like I almost never use the SS in the TL. However, I didn't know the Subie manumatic has a sport mode. Now that I might find useful.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Posts: 4,487
    Believe it or not, the Legacy GT is a tick or two faster than the TL according to the car mags. They feel about the same in my opinion, but the TL gets handicapped by FWD and loses composure in some cases.

     

    CRaig
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    You mean comparing automatic to automatic? That's surprising 'cause the GT's engine didn't seem to pull as strongly. Maybe it was the initial lag off the line that made it feel slower.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    There's no doubt the manual tranny GT is quicker than the auto, but both have plenty of power.

     

    C&D's Outback XT automatic (slowest/heaviest Subaru with the 2.5T engine) matches the manual TSX they tested in 0-60.

     

    With auto I bet the TL is quicker, it has the advantage in displacment. But with the manual the GT would be quicker.

     

    -juice
  • terrylterryl Posts: 34
    No plans to upgrade the stereo? Has anyone successfully done this?

     

    Tx.

    Terry
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Stereo - IMO that's likely, actually. Why? Because the Tribeca is MP3 capable and has an Aux input if you get the 9" DVD.

     

    That means Subaru is thinking about it. I bet we see at least one of those two upgrades.

     

    I don't like proprietary radios, let the aftermarket offer choices that you can't! I've heard you can buy a blank face-plate from JDM models and fit any double-DIN stereo, though.

     

    Both my current Subarus have a 6CD changer that I installed, and my Miata's CD skips so that is next!

     

    -juice
  • terrylterryl Posts: 34
    Thanks, Juice!

     

    I haven't found any face-plates for the car yet but would be interested to know if anyone else has.

     

    Terry
  • c_hunterc_hunter Posts: 4,487
    The only faceplates available are from Japan, and do not work with the auto climate control system. They would only work on 2.5i (non Ltd) US models with manual climate control. And even then, it will take some work because the plate is arranged for RHD configurations.

     

    It is not possible to install an aftermarket stereo in the center console of any model with auto climate control. The HVAC controls actually share a circuit board with the radio! Best you can do is put the radio somewhere else.

     

    Craig
  • terrylterryl Posts: 34
    Thanks, Craig. I am sure not audio electronics knowledgable but I do love car audio and this would be a compromise for me vs. the other two cars in this forum, esp. TL - as I consider purchasing LGT or TL. Can you or someone else please advise, is there much real upgrading that can occur if the deck remains unchanged but, for example, power is added, speakers changed, add sub, etc.?

    Thanks in advance!

    Terry
This discussion has been closed.