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Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,878
    I think we can all agree that Hybrids have moved far beyond "FAD" stage

    I don't agree. Some fads last longer than others. The only hybrid that is in that category is the Prius. The Honda hybrids are just along for the ride. On Vancouver Island it was the SmartCar that was the fad. The only Prii were taxi cabs. I did not see a single private Prius during that week. I talked to the Smart Dealer. He was the top sales dealer in Canada. They were sold as soon as they hit the lot. They get an honest 70 MPG driving normal. Some people who worked at it got over 90 MPG.
  • They will cease to be fads and be considered mainstream cars when you can buy, drive, maintain, repair, resell them as mainstream cars.

    Can you ? The answer as of now is NO.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Anyone who thinks Hybrids are still a FAD in the USA has not been reading the news lately, or looking at car buying trends, or paying attention to life, or else is just too stubborn to admit they were wrong.

    I gave all the reasons above why hybrids are not FADDISH. Please re-read since you missed the point the first time around.

    Definition of FAD:

    "A fashion that is taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief period of time; a craze."

    Is 9 years (1997 Prius in Japan) a "brief period of time?" How about almost 6 years since the USA Prius or 7 years for the Honda Insight? Unless you are comparing it to the life of a sea turtle, that's not BRIEF by any definition.

    Brief defined:

    "Short in time, duration, length, or extent."

    Has there been a CRAZE?

    Craze defined:

    "A short-lived popular fashion."

    I cant see how the Hybrid phenomenon in the USA and the World has been "brief" nor has it been "crazy."

    And about the mainstream "buy drive maintain repair resell" thing, well, I bought my HCH like any car (at a dealer lot for $800 below the advertised price) and I can drive it like any other car, and there is no special maintenance required, nor any special repairs required (something breaks, it gets fixed) and I have seen MANY MANY hybrids get resold, including mine (I am the second owner.)

    So there has been no difference in my HCH versus a Civic EX as far as "buy drive maintain repair resell" at all.
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    ...that the legislation should read "Any PZEV car that achieves 40+ MPG get the tax break", and not "Any hybridPZEV car that achieves 40+ MPG get the tax break". Sure, only hybrids can get it now, but it encourages the automakers to try other ways to do it (that may be cheaper).

    Besides, don't the new tax breaks just say "for hybrids", regardless of their mileage? What's the advantage of promoting a Lexus SUV hybrid that only gets 25 MPG, over a PZEV Focus that gets 30+?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote mirth-"What's the advantage of promoting a Lexus SUV hybrid that only gets 25 MPG, over a PZEV Focus that gets 30+?"-end quote

    The advantage is, that person who bought the Lexus SUV needed an SUV, apparently, and COULD have purchased a larger, lower MPG, more polluting SUV, thus doing great harm to the environment and doing nothing to curtail the oil dependency.

    Maybe a PZEV Focus was not the right car for that family - the tax incentive prevents them from buying a more polluting, less fuel efficient SUV.

    And a family who could buy a PZEV Focus could use the tax advantage to instead buy an HCH or a Prius and be as clean AND be more fuel efficient.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,878
    I cant see how the Hybrid phenomenon in the USA and the World has been "brief" nor has it been "crazy."

    The Prius/hybrid fad/craze is less than two years old. Toyota and Honda had a very hard sell the first few years that the hybrids were here. The Prius II is the craze for now. Why I say it is losing steam is not because they are not selling well. It is because the media no longer consider them the great deal they were 2 years ago. They are losing their glamour so to speak. The Prius is still a high mileage car for sure, as is the HCH. They are still not worth the price. You represent a very small cheering section for the hybrid technology. I can appreciate that. When you can go to the Honda dealer and say for a few hundred more I can get the hybrid and get a 20% improvement on fuel economy, it will be a good deal. As far as emissions the hybrids are just a few of at least 30 PZEV cars on the market. Being green is no longer the selling point it once was.

    Now John is telling us that we need to get used to paying higher prices for repairing SULEV emissions vehicles. That is bright, promising thought. What kind of future are we looking at with the hybrids?
  • As the track record of various new-age cars has come & gone...BUT...Honda & Toyota have one-upped the other ones with intellegent, practical, versital, and most of all, popular hybrid cars.
    I first made contact with both the Insight & 1st Gen. Prius while vacationing in Texas. Both were less than exemplary. The Honda very limited and impractical while the Prius was just a shade better but plain looking and lacking any perk in the performance area. Gas was $ 1.39 a gal. Although they were being heavily discounted, it didn't seem to matter. The want and the need just weren't there.
    Along came the 2nd Gen. Prius with style, better zip, and alot of praises from ..you name them. The ackolades just piled up. I paid $19,995.00 plus shipping 2 yrs ago and have been smiling all the way to the bank since. Gas is, well you already know what gas is. I smile going into stations and leaving when I don't have to stick around and pitch the hybrid story. My only complaint is...When is Toyota coming out with a "sport model?"
    If they do so soon maybe I'll mate them and have little hybrids to share.
    Railroadjames(Whats all that dust I see on 4/Sale SUV's?)
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    The advantage is, that person who bought the Lexus SUV needed an SUV, apparently, and COULD have purchased a larger, lower MPG, more polluting SUV, thus doing great harm to the environment and doing nothing to curtail the oil dependency.

    Well, first off, I don't think there are going to be too many people who could afford the Lexus (or even the Highlander) in the first place, but whatever. You still haven't answered my question why we should just legislate the results we want to see (lower emissions, higher mileage) rather than one specific technology to achieve it?
  • sr45sr45 Posts: 144
    You all should read this about Hybrids...............

    http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/23/Autos/hybrid_alternatives/index.htm<a href="http://
  • I don't buy "IT" It being this balony about "hype". If you were to ask a good deal of hybrid buyers I feel confident in saying that "we" didn't go off on a whim and buy these cars because of all the hype that they laid on us. Truthfully, I gotta say that for all the nay sayers to keep putting out a bunch of calculated math that says ....Don't buy a hybrid. Well, for those folks that wanna listen to reasons why not to buy one, I say ...Buy the car for your own good reasons. What were mine? Well, I think the Prius is a "snazzy, cool, smart, car that says what I believe to be most important. I'm just visiting gas-stations now on rare occasions not every 3 days. Lastly ...If you want a Ford Focus then buy it. Then again, it won't be anything special. Just another ordinary Ford that after 5 or 6 yrs will be worth maybe $2,500.00. On the other hand, a Prius will be worth 3-4 times that amount if not more. That's my opinion. Right! Just an opinion by a guy who took a chance on a hybrid 2-1/2 yrs ago. Just know this. When was the last time a car made you feel really good? Dang straight!! Thats the best reason I enjoy my Prius. Yeah, a car makes my days special. Wow!! That's almost therapudic.
    Railroadjames( happy days are here again)
    P.S. Anyone think a Hummer owner is feeling good when they have to part with a C-note(100.00) just to filler up.(every 3-4 days)?
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    Old news. Been posted many times. Snooooooozzzeeeee
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,788
    "P.S. Anyone think a Hummer owner is feeling good when they have to part with a C-note(100.00) just to filler up.(every 3-4 days)?"

    Actually, I suspect that they enjoy flaunting their wealth by showing they can affort to throw away C-notes at will. People who can afford an H1 or H2 don't worry about the cost of fuel.
  • Actually I think that they are very much aware of the fuel costs that are pinching their wallets just like us. Why not? They have "BIG" car payments that bite and insurance that typically runs considerably more than the norm. I'm surprised that you actually think that "they" have money to burn. The biggest reason some folks attain a degree of wealth isn't because they throw their $$$$$ away ever so casually. Nuff said!
    Railroadjames( The Prius is changing the way we think of cars of the future) :shades:
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    I seriously doubt that. You can get a nice lease deal on those behemoths most of the time. Most of them are leased and not purchased by the same people that would have leased/purchased a Trailblazer. Believe me, they're hurting!!
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,788
    "I seriously doubt that. You can get a nice lease deal on those behemoths most of the time. Most of them are leased and not purchased by the same people that would have leased/purchased a Trailblazer. Believe me, they're hurting!!"

    Well, it depends. Here in LA, conspicuous consumption or ridiculous frugality is the rule. I see both types... but more new monster SUVs than Prius in the past couple of weeks.

    Some rich people are misers, some are consumers (that is, they prefer to flaunt the $$).
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,878
    Well, it depends. Here in LA, conspicuous consumption or ridiculous frugality is the rule. I see both types... but more new monster SUVs than Prius in the past couple of weeks.

    Thank goodness we have some people still spending money. Our economy would be in a big pickle if the only thing sold was the hybrids. GM has sold more Suburban class vehicles so far this year than Toyota has sold hybrids, I am sure. Not to mention the fact that hybrid owners are not paying their share of the highway tax. I would imagine the CA legislature will come up with some tax that will make it equitable.
  • I'm curious....Have you not notice where our economy has been going lately? LIKE DOWN THE TUBE!! The "Big Three" practically selling @ an, at best, break even level. That, for the very first time, a sales tactic that seemed desperation on their part. Not Toyota, not Honda, not Nissan and not Mazda.
    Our country in hock up to its eyeballs and running significantly low on oil and facing 3-4 dollar gas prices. I don't know 'bout you but I'm seeing some serious signals that bring about big concerns as to where we're headed. That's just the tip of the ice-burg in my estimation.
    Bottom line....Change is inevitable. You just have to see that!! By the way, what do you think the overall sales projections are on Hummers I, II,& III? I'll bet only the III is making any significant sales numbers that will still be meager compared to hybrids (especially the Prius).
    What say you now?
    Railroadjames(Prius Happy) :)
  • civic4civic4 Posts: 33
    As with any technology, the hybrid will eventually become more mainstream. What many people do not realize is the average lifespan of the hybrid battery engine is aproximately 80,000 miles, which then requires replacement at an average cost of $3000. Now, If you put the tax rebate away, let it gather interest in rollover CD's and keep it for that particular purpose, then you would have a bite into the cost of replacement, but, most people will not think of that inevitable replacement cost and just spend the tax refund on whatever. Then, you are left either with a $3000 bill for a new battery engine, or forced to trade the car in at a much lesser trade in value compensating for the non functioning battery for a new hybrid. I for one think 80,000 miles lifespan for such an expensive part is too short, especially with todays drivers averaging 15 to 25K miles a year.

    If you are buying these cars for the green factor, then, consider a high efficient four cylinder vehicle with ULEV technology, if for the cost of gas, well, you still have the battery engine replacement to consider in the cost of ownership. This technology will improve, and soon you will see battery engines capable of at least twice today's lifespans, but until then, this replacement cost makes a timing belt seem like an oil change.
  • Have you missed some pertinent info? Toyota has been developing the "Synergy" system for well over ten yrs. That hardly sounds like the infancy stages of R & D. Your statement about batteries is, at best, based on what? The batteries are warranteed for 100K (California more) I'm from Missouri (show me state) so get facts & details to back up your generalities. I think that should clear things up. We've been discussing the hybrids for quite some time and the overall concensous is that the batteries will out perform their warranteed span and if there should be a need for service it is considered that only portions of the battery cells would likely be replaced. 8 to 10 yrs from now the batteries should be replaced for considerably less cost than now, as with most electronic equipment. Example: DVD Players 1st yr...average cost 175-200 dollars Today they can be had for 39 bucks.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,878
    Have you not notice where our economy has been going lately?

    I don't see gloom & doom where I travel, from the Arctic ocean to the Mexican border to Hawaii. I see a shortage of labor. Help wanted in every shop. No one working for less than 8 bucks an hour. I see a GDP of about 13 Trillion dollars and debt of 1 trillion. compare that to WW2 when the debt was 2/3 of the GDP. GAS IS CHEAP at $3 per gallon. I know it is an insignificant part of my budget I spent more for breakfast than I did to fill my car with gas. There are pockets of recession. Always have been always will be. It shifts around the country. If you need something to do Mississippi can use your help. They sustained a lot of damage and did not get the publicity.

    PS
    I never think about Hummers, Escalades or whatever the drug dealers are driving this month. If you did not bring them up no one would talk about them. They are a niche vehicle. There are still at least a dozen SUVs that outsell any hybrid car on the market. If faced with $5 per gallon gas and only one vehicle I would keep my PU truck, pure and simple. Comfort and utility are more important to me than high mileage. Give me a small PU that gets 40 MPG and I will consider it.

    If you follow the Grand Cherokee it is up 20% in sales this year and it has an EPA of 16 MPG. The reason some of the SUVs are losing market share is the market is expanding at a rapid rate. There are more new SUVs on the market than hybrids. They have to compete for the buyers dollars.

    Speaking of trucks. Ford, Chevy & GMC are all selling more full size trucks this year to date than last year. I guess the gloom and doom is only in the media spin.
  • JBaumgartJBaumgart Posts: 890
    I happened to be scanning the used car section of the local paper's classifieds tonight, and came across two hybrids for sale, one 2003 Honda Civic and one 2001 Prius. The Honda was priced at $18,995, but what really caught my eye was the asking price for the 4 year old Prius (59,000 miles): $14,995!!! I suppose some fool would actually agree to pay this much, but geeezzz that would be really....foolish. Under the same Toyota listing there was a "loaded, mint, one owner" 2001 Camry XLE 4 cylinder with with 46,000 miles for $13,500 - I certainly know which one I would choose! There was even a "mint" 2001 Lexus ES300 for sale at $15,300 - just $306 more than the asking price of same year Prius!

    From a buyer's perspective, used hybrids have to be THE poorest value out there today. And as new battery technology replaces old, I would think the cost to replace the old parts can only go up, making that used purchase an even poorer value....Once more new hybrids of various makes and models start showing up on dealer's lots, the price of the used ones should start to plummet fast, and comparative values like the above examples should start to disappear.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,878
    8 to 10 yrs from now the batteries should be replaced for considerably less cost than now

    Do you have any kind of data to back up that assumption? How much is the OEM battery today compared to 2 years ago?

    I agree as long as the 8 year 100k mile warranty is in effect there is little to worry about. Is that warranty transferable? Not all warranties on cars are. Of the 5 new laptops I have owned since 1983 none of the batteries have gone down in price. You better hope that your Prius battery goes out just before the warranty is up.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,878
    From a buyer's perspective, used hybrids have to be THE poorest value out there today.

    The sellers of these used hybrids are hoping for a sucker to come along. It is hard to know what used cars are selling for as there is a lack of actual data. Right now it is a sellers market on hybrids. I just loaned my brother in-law the money to buy a used car. He bought a GM vehicle with low miles at a bargain price. You can buy a Toyota or Honda below invoice on most new models. They are trying to keep up with the Big 3 giveaway sales. That makes the hybrids even more over priced.
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    I guess that's why you bought an overpriced GMC hybrid. LOL :D How's the mileage??
  • We can go on & on about disagreeing but the fact that hybrids are in demand speaks volumes to their success. As reported in "CAR & DRIVER" & "MOTOR TREND", the 2ND Gen. Prius is the right car for these times. Good performance, ample room and eco friendly. Oh! and did I mention extreemly high mileage.
    Contentions that they are over priced are, simply put, bogus. These inovative cars sell themselves. I'm always surprised at the enuendoes that the batteries should or could fail and be a major factor in buying a hybrid. So far (yrs) the batteries are a moot point. They simply work just as designed, requiring nominal drain thus longevity. Implying that "we" are suckers for buying a hybrid indicates to me a lack of reality checks when the hybrid "wave" is growing.."leaps & bounds."
    I figure that refinements and added "R&D" will lead to more and more hybrids as pointed out at the European Car Show. Fifteen up and coming hybrids to join the existing list of hybrids.
    One question for those who fail to see the future minus "GAS HOGS".....If hybrids are such a big mistake then why are they so ....IN DEMAND? and growing!! ;)
    Railroadjames(Gas Hogs....R.I.P.)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,878
    If hybrids are such a big mistake then why are they so ....IN DEMAND? and growing!!

    The same reasons that small cars sold good in the 70s. MPG is important when the price of gas shoots up dramatically. What happened to that period of higher mileage cars. By the late 1980s people were buying bigger, more powerful cars and SUVs. This is the first downward movement of the large SUVs in 15 years. When the hybrids have that kind of growth and popularity I will believe they are here to stay. But then they probably will all be gone by then.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Like you say Gary, this is the first downward trend in SUV sales in 15 years. Has "any" category of cars ever done that, ever before? No.

    So holding Hybrids up to the standard of "never been done before" is kind of harsh, dontcha think? That's like holding this year's top rookie NFL wide receiver to Jerry Rice standards in his first ten years. Aint gonna happen. ;)

    How about declaring that the standard of "x percent of the market" means they are "here to stay" ??

    Whadaya say guys and gals: 5%, 7%, 10%?

    I'd say that "here to stay" for the Hybrids has already been reached, since the upward sales trend for the technology is continuing and ongoing. They won't be on the verge of "going away" until the sales start dropping over a couple of years in a row.

    Are hybrids the "be all and end all?" Nope, but they are the best we have until the next better thing comes along.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,788
    " Our country in hock up to its eyeballs and running significantly low on oil and facing 3-4 dollar gas prices. I don't know 'bout you but I'm seeing some serious signals that bring about big concerns as to where we're headed. That's just the tip of the ice-burg in my estimation.
    Bottom line....Change is inevitable. You just have to see that!!
    ...
    What say you now? "

    What I say is that we are not short on oil; we are short on gasoline, primarily due to the lack of refinery capacity. I have read that there is actually a lot of years of oil left; but it is not all as easily accessable as some of the past oil. Now that oil is more expensive, it will be more cost effective to get to the oil. I personally know that there is a lot of oil left in Texas, for example, but the wells were not running when oil was at $25 / barrel.

    Some analysts are predicting that oil will drop back below $40 per barrel, early next year or so. Personally, I will have to see it to believe it. However, I do think that there is sufficient oil for a pretty good while.

    Did you know that for a time in the early 1600's, in Holland, people sold houses just to get a single Ostrich feather? That bubble burst very suddenly. I think that some (note the some) of the current cost of gas is such a bubble, caused by speculation on oil futures rather than traditional supply and demand.
  • tdohtdoh Posts: 298
    Quote: "Just know this. When was the last time a car made you feel really good? Dang straight!! Thats the best reason I enjoy my Prius. Yeah, a car makes my days special. Wow!! That's almost therapudic."

    Gee, and I thought people were buying Priuses due to their great fuel economy... ;)

    Heck, if I wanted to get a car that would make me feel really good...I dunno about you but for me, a C6 Z06 Corvette would make me feel more good than a Prius would...any day of the week!
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    That car is boring. I'd rather have a Conti GT coupe. No GM cars for me!! O BTW... The Prius is a fun car to drive. Can't wait to get mine!
This discussion has been closed.