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Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids

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Comments

  • tdoh:

    "you'd be taking public transportation."

    Trouble is in most places it doesn't exist. A mass transit system is pretty low on the governments priority list.

    And actually you are right they current :hybrids "don't save you money". If you look at TCO there are much cheaper transportation alternatives, even in places where mass transit doesn't exist.

    Then if for some unknown reason, you want to pay more than MSRP for a hybrid you exacerbate the situation.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • tdohtdoh Posts: 298
    MidCow--I was generalizing with my "public transportation" comment; I know that not everybody lives in an area that's well-served by mass-transit. I was insinuating about how more than a few hybrid owners crow about how much money they're saving/have saved from owning a hybrid. Someone who takes public transportation would save way more money on transportation and ownership costs compared to a hybrid owner than the amount a hybrid owner would save over a non-hybrid owner.

    If hybrids are worth their "weight in gold" to the point where many of these hybrid owners continually spew numbers about how much money they're saving...why would there be a need for tax breaks/credits on hybrid purchases? With all the money hybrid owners are supposedly saving from not having to spend as much money on gas...isn't that enough of a financial incentive to buy one? Apparently, some folks don't think so...hence the enticing tax breaks/credits... :lemon:
  • Tdoh,

    Okay thanks for explaining you statement more. I am in total agreement with you !

    Have a Good Day,

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote tdoh-"If hybrids are worth their "weight in gold" to the point where many of these hybrid owners continually spew numbers about how much money they're saving...why would there be a need for tax breaks/credits on hybrid purchases? With all the money hybrid owners are supposedly saving from not having to spend as much money on gas...isn't that enough of a financial incentive to buy one? Apparently, some folks don't think so...hence the enticing tax breaks/credits."-end quote

    I can answer that question Alex.....:D

    The reason for the tax breaks is that in general, "money talks and BS walks." People in general (the US Public) is not educated enough about hybrids (do you have to plug them in? Can you drive 300 miles? Can it go the speed limit?) to know what an awesome technology they are.

    That is partly the car manufacturer's fault for not getting the information out there. One good ad campaign, expenses shared by Toyota and Honda, executed 5 years ago would have done wonders for that problem.

    Another problem is that until just recently (2003) the available Hybrids were, to be kind, a little quirky and small and underpowered and very "niche" (speaking of the Insight and the original Prius.) Those cars did nothing to grab the public's attention, as they were stuck in the throes of the "Bigger, Heavier SUV to keep up with the Joneses" phase of car buying.

    Another MAJOR problem is that virtually every news story you see keeps harping on "they don't pay for themselves" or "They dont get advertised MPG." Until enough people like myself and other Hybrid advocates get the CORRECT information out there to the maintstream media, that crap is going to continue to be a deterrent to sales.

    Now, with gas prices up and people realizing the truth about smaller cars and how much their pocketbooks can be spared that $80 fillup, smaller cars and hybrids are making a move. Expect about 210,000 to be sold this year, as opposed to about 80,000 last year.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,719
    "quote tdoh-"If hybrids are worth their "weight in gold" to the point where many of these hybrid owners continually spew numbers about how much money they're saving...why would there be a need for tax breaks/credits on hybrid purchases? With all the money hybrid owners are supposedly saving from not having to spend as much money on gas...isn't that enough of a financial incentive to buy one? Apparently, some folks don't think so...hence the enticing tax breaks/credits."-end quote

    I can answer that question Alex....."

    I have to disagree. The tax credits are there because the politicians also don't understand the technology, and the fact that it was already selling quite well without incentives. They were attempting to get the auto manufacturors to make more hybrids, but what they should have done was applied the credits only to new models produced by manufacturors. That would have spurred the big 3 to put out the hybrids. Toyota and Honda didn't need any prodding to produce hybrids. Not only that, but it immediately rewards the two hybrid companies, who are building their bread-and-butter hybrids in Japan, rather than encouraging more jobs in this country. At the very least they could have stipulated US built vehicles...

    Just a wast of taxpayer money, but then that is what politician$ are good at. ;)
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Well, we can all agree that govt wastes money on a lot of "questionable" programs, right? A lot of bad ones, and some good ones, right? Can we all agree on that?

    That being said:

    The Hybrid tax incentive program is NOT one of the bad ones.

    What it does is encourage purchase of CLEAN, highly efficient cars which in the end put fewer exhaust toxins in the air, reduce foreign fuel dependency, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

    In addition, the more hybrids sold, the better the future technology will be, allowing for CLEANER cars and higher MPG, as evidenced by the 2006 HCH, which is an AT-PZEV car, the cleanest gasoline engine rating that can be given by the EPA, and which has also increased HP by 20% and fuel efficiency by 5% over the first generation HCH. That's progress, and part of that was paid for by encouraging more hybrids to be sold.

    What do you think the next generation Prius might be rated? 65 MPG City, 55 Hwy probably, and will run on battery longer at probably at higher speeds. This is what the purchase of today's hybrids will bring us - better hybrids in the future.

    I can't see one bad thing about any of that.
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    I have no problem with a tax incentive to encourage people to buy high-mileage and/or low emissions vehicles. I do have a problem with an incentive that targets only one technology to achieve that. Why doesn't the incentive apply to a PZEV Focus which gets good mileage? Or a deisal Jetta? Lawmakers should focus on the results they want to encourage and not jump on the technology fad of the week. What's next, and incentive for iPods?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    There are several PZEV cars, and not all of them are high mileage cars. If you incentivize them, you are only helping the clean air of the problem, not also helping in the fuel conservation area. If Ford made a PZEV that got 48 MPG, then I would agree with you, but they don't.

    You know how much it would cost to make EVERY CAR a PZEV car, from the factory? About $100-$140 per car. That's it. You'd think that the govt could FORCE the car companies to do that, but the Auto Lobby is too strong. Why, that would take BILLIONS of dollars out of the stockholder's pockets, good Lord, we can't do that !! (OMG)

    And the "clean diesels" that get high mileage are not "really clean" until the ULSD fuel becomes entrenched in the USA and the particulate filters are prevalent to remove the remaining soot from the exhaust. Again, incentivizing them only helps in the mileage side, not the clean air side.

    Incentives for the high MPG Hybrids helps in both GHG and in fuel conservation - a double whammy for the money. That's why it's the right thing to do.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    If Ford made a PZEV that got 48 MPG, then I would agree with you, but they don't.

    The incentives are also available for some low mileage SUVs. I agree that picking on one technology because it is the fad of the month is not good. Notice how they eliminated the diesel cars? They knew none would pass the emissions with the crappy diesel in many parts of the US. Time will tell if they get a shot after ULSD is mandated Sept. 2006. Mercedes & Ford have demonstrated PZEV Diesels using good fuel.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"I agree that picking on one technology because it is the fad of the month is not good."-end quote

    I think we can all agree that Hybrids have moved far beyond "FAD" stage and are on their way to complete mainstream stardom. Notice as evidence recent comments by Ford who is going to have almost all their cars with a hybrid option by 2010, and Toyota's statement two years ago (repeated many times) that they would do that, and all the other makers who are putting hybrids on the road in the next 2-3 years. Notice the estimated 200,000 hybrids to be sold in the USA in 2005. Notice Honda into the second generation of the HCH. Notice recent Frankfurt car shows with multiple Hybrid concepts. Notice even VW saying they would make a hybrid, after poo-pooing them for years now. Notice Nissan with an Altima soon.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    I think we can all agree that Hybrids have moved far beyond "FAD" stage

    I don't agree. Some fads last longer than others. The only hybrid that is in that category is the Prius. The Honda hybrids are just along for the ride. On Vancouver Island it was the SmartCar that was the fad. The only Prii were taxi cabs. I did not see a single private Prius during that week. I talked to the Smart Dealer. He was the top sales dealer in Canada. They were sold as soon as they hit the lot. They get an honest 70 MPG driving normal. Some people who worked at it got over 90 MPG.
  • They will cease to be fads and be considered mainstream cars when you can buy, drive, maintain, repair, resell them as mainstream cars.

    Can you ? The answer as of now is NO.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Anyone who thinks Hybrids are still a FAD in the USA has not been reading the news lately, or looking at car buying trends, or paying attention to life, or else is just too stubborn to admit they were wrong.

    I gave all the reasons above why hybrids are not FADDISH. Please re-read since you missed the point the first time around.

    Definition of FAD:

    "A fashion that is taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief period of time; a craze."

    Is 9 years (1997 Prius in Japan) a "brief period of time?" How about almost 6 years since the USA Prius or 7 years for the Honda Insight? Unless you are comparing it to the life of a sea turtle, that's not BRIEF by any definition.

    Brief defined:

    "Short in time, duration, length, or extent."

    Has there been a CRAZE?

    Craze defined:

    "A short-lived popular fashion."

    I cant see how the Hybrid phenomenon in the USA and the World has been "brief" nor has it been "crazy."

    And about the mainstream "buy drive maintain repair resell" thing, well, I bought my HCH like any car (at a dealer lot for $800 below the advertised price) and I can drive it like any other car, and there is no special maintenance required, nor any special repairs required (something breaks, it gets fixed) and I have seen MANY MANY hybrids get resold, including mine (I am the second owner.)

    So there has been no difference in my HCH versus a Civic EX as far as "buy drive maintain repair resell" at all.
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    ...that the legislation should read "Any PZEV car that achieves 40+ MPG get the tax break", and not "Any hybridPZEV car that achieves 40+ MPG get the tax break". Sure, only hybrids can get it now, but it encourages the automakers to try other ways to do it (that may be cheaper).

    Besides, don't the new tax breaks just say "for hybrids", regardless of their mileage? What's the advantage of promoting a Lexus SUV hybrid that only gets 25 MPG, over a PZEV Focus that gets 30+?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote mirth-"What's the advantage of promoting a Lexus SUV hybrid that only gets 25 MPG, over a PZEV Focus that gets 30+?"-end quote

    The advantage is, that person who bought the Lexus SUV needed an SUV, apparently, and COULD have purchased a larger, lower MPG, more polluting SUV, thus doing great harm to the environment and doing nothing to curtail the oil dependency.

    Maybe a PZEV Focus was not the right car for that family - the tax incentive prevents them from buying a more polluting, less fuel efficient SUV.

    And a family who could buy a PZEV Focus could use the tax advantage to instead buy an HCH or a Prius and be as clean AND be more fuel efficient.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,679
    I cant see how the Hybrid phenomenon in the USA and the World has been "brief" nor has it been "crazy."

    The Prius/hybrid fad/craze is less than two years old. Toyota and Honda had a very hard sell the first few years that the hybrids were here. The Prius II is the craze for now. Why I say it is losing steam is not because they are not selling well. It is because the media no longer consider them the great deal they were 2 years ago. They are losing their glamour so to speak. The Prius is still a high mileage car for sure, as is the HCH. They are still not worth the price. You represent a very small cheering section for the hybrid technology. I can appreciate that. When you can go to the Honda dealer and say for a few hundred more I can get the hybrid and get a 20% improvement on fuel economy, it will be a good deal. As far as emissions the hybrids are just a few of at least 30 PZEV cars on the market. Being green is no longer the selling point it once was.

    Now John is telling us that we need to get used to paying higher prices for repairing SULEV emissions vehicles. That is bright, promising thought. What kind of future are we looking at with the hybrids?
  • As the track record of various new-age cars has come & gone...BUT...Honda & Toyota have one-upped the other ones with intellegent, practical, versital, and most of all, popular hybrid cars.
    I first made contact with both the Insight & 1st Gen. Prius while vacationing in Texas. Both were less than exemplary. The Honda very limited and impractical while the Prius was just a shade better but plain looking and lacking any perk in the performance area. Gas was $ 1.39 a gal. Although they were being heavily discounted, it didn't seem to matter. The want and the need just weren't there.
    Along came the 2nd Gen. Prius with style, better zip, and alot of praises from ..you name them. The ackolades just piled up. I paid $19,995.00 plus shipping 2 yrs ago and have been smiling all the way to the bank since. Gas is, well you already know what gas is. I smile going into stations and leaving when I don't have to stick around and pitch the hybrid story. My only complaint is...When is Toyota coming out with a "sport model?"
    If they do so soon maybe I'll mate them and have little hybrids to share.
    Railroadjames(Whats all that dust I see on 4/Sale SUV's?)
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    The advantage is, that person who bought the Lexus SUV needed an SUV, apparently, and COULD have purchased a larger, lower MPG, more polluting SUV, thus doing great harm to the environment and doing nothing to curtail the oil dependency.

    Well, first off, I don't think there are going to be too many people who could afford the Lexus (or even the Highlander) in the first place, but whatever. You still haven't answered my question why we should just legislate the results we want to see (lower emissions, higher mileage) rather than one specific technology to achieve it?
  • sr45sr45 Posts: 144
    You all should read this about Hybrids...............

    http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/23/Autos/hybrid_alternatives/index.htm<a href="http://
  • I don't buy "IT" It being this balony about "hype". If you were to ask a good deal of hybrid buyers I feel confident in saying that "we" didn't go off on a whim and buy these cars because of all the hype that they laid on us. Truthfully, I gotta say that for all the nay sayers to keep putting out a bunch of calculated math that says ....Don't buy a hybrid. Well, for those folks that wanna listen to reasons why not to buy one, I say ...Buy the car for your own good reasons. What were mine? Well, I think the Prius is a "snazzy, cool, smart, car that says what I believe to be most important. I'm just visiting gas-stations now on rare occasions not every 3 days. Lastly ...If you want a Ford Focus then buy it. Then again, it won't be anything special. Just another ordinary Ford that after 5 or 6 yrs will be worth maybe $2,500.00. On the other hand, a Prius will be worth 3-4 times that amount if not more. That's my opinion. Right! Just an opinion by a guy who took a chance on a hybrid 2-1/2 yrs ago. Just know this. When was the last time a car made you feel really good? Dang straight!! Thats the best reason I enjoy my Prius. Yeah, a car makes my days special. Wow!! That's almost therapudic.
    Railroadjames( happy days are here again)
    P.S. Anyone think a Hummer owner is feeling good when they have to part with a C-note(100.00) just to filler up.(every 3-4 days)?
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