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BMW 535D

idletaskidletask Posts: 171
edited March 11 in BMW
While the USA is barely introduced to current modern generation Diesels (PD 2.0l TDI in the VW Passat and 5.0l V10 TDI in the Touareg, CR in the Merc E320 CDI), Diesel power has made a new leap in the form of the newly introduced BMW 535d. And what a leap.

First a side note to say that this engine is equipped with a particulate filter from the ground up, and it obeys Euro 4 emission standards already. But that's merely the point here...

The meat is that: the basis from the engine is the class leading, inline 6, 3.0l turbodiesel engine that already propels with ease the 330d and X3 3.0d (204hp) on one side and the 530d, 730d and X5 3.0d (218 hp) on the other. But in the new 535d, this engine has been fitted with dual stage turbocharging: a small turbo for low revs, a big one for high revs. Absolute pressure is up from 2.3 bars in 218 hp guise to 2.85 bars here. Compression ratio has been lowered from 17:1 to 16.5:1. This system has permitted to drop variable vane turbochargers entirely.

And it's not quite new, since this engine has been used notably in the X5 that raced at the Paris Dakar and ended up 3rd. But it's the first time it's used in a production car.

Results : max torque 560 Nm at 2000 rpm (500 of which is already available at 1200 rpm, 530 at 1500), peak power 200 kW (272 hp) at 4400 rpm. We're speaking 91 hp per litre here, that's the world record of specific power for a turbocharged Diesel powerplant. 560 Nm is roughly 413 lbft.

According to BMW, this propels the porky, 1700 kg 5 series from 0 to 60 in 6.5 seconds. Better still, the kilometer from a standstill is said to be achieved in 25'9! To give you an idea of how fast this is, consider the fact that the current 330d has been measured in 28'2, the current 530d in 28'5, the Boxster S doesn't do any better, while my current car (Opel Speedster Turbo), praised for its performance, just does 0'9 better in 25 seconds flat!

All this while boasting, always according to the manufacturer, a combined Euro cycle in the high 30s...
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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Sounds very impressive!

    M
  • 272 hp divided by 3.5 L equals 77.7 hp per litre. This is still an impressive figure, but not 91 hp per litre as you stated.
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    > 272 hp divided by 3.5 L equals 77.7 hp per litre. This is still an impressive figure, but not 91 hp per litre as you stated

    You read it incorrectly! The engine still displaces 3.0 liters!
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    The engine in the 535d STILL displaces 3.0 liters, so yes, that's a specific output of 91 hp per liter.

    And it's not the first application of this technology either, since Opel took the 1.9l Multijet Fiat turbodiesel engine and also fitted it with dual stage turbocharging, resulting in a max torque of 400 Nm from 1500 rpm on and a peak power of 210 hp, so that's more than 100 hp per litre, and more than 200 Nm per litre. That's the engine in the prototype Vectra OPC which was at the Paris motorshow among others.

    But unlike the craftmanship by OPC (Opel Performance Center), BMW has made this technology to the public, and had previous experience with it in rallye raid, no less. At least in Europe. I guess they're just waiting to see how the E320 CDI will fare in the US market before they decide on importing this blaster of an engine to your shores.
  • Sorry. I did read it incorrectly.
    272 hp is an incredible output for a 3 litre diesel engine. With all that torque and the good fuel economy, I hope this engine is available in the USA when the low sulfur content fuel is.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I think that is other half of the reason why BMW is waiting, better diesel fuel in the U.S.

    If diesels catch on again, BMW, VW, Audi, Mercedes will be ready to offer one in every segment they have cars in now. Can you imagine it?

    Mercedes, BMW and Audi alone have at least 1 and in many cases 2 diesel versions of every sedan they sell, usually a 6 and a V8.

    There is a E400 CDI in Europe that could be priced at the same as the E500, would be a hit I think.

    Picture it, MBUSA headquarters Summer 2006:

    A commercial is drafted with not a string around your finger but a rope around your ankle....the new Mercedes diesels:

    ....the C270, E320, E400, ML320, ML400, S320, S400 CDI models all coming down a a very wide street or a desert with white paper over their tailpipes.....

    BMW's ad is all to easy to predict:

    "The Ultimate Alternative Power Driving Machine".

    M
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    The first Common Rail Diesel engine was NOT unveiled by Mercedes, but Alfa Romeo in the 156.

    In fact, Mercedes was, quite on the opposite, a big believer in prechamber Diesels of old, only the market and results of CR Diesels on other cars had them go the CR way.

    Completely unrelated, but despite its constant progress too, the PD technology just hasn't had such a success. Only VW and Land Rover use it, and that's pretty much all... That's probably because unlike the CR, PD is manufactured by one and only OEM, Bosch.
  • bavariabavaria Posts: 5
    Good information but does anyone know if the 535 or the 530 are going to make it to the us? And when? MB already introduced their diesel for the E 320.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,918
    idletask, you should submit that as an error to our editorial staff (using the help link near the top). They would be glad to correct the information!

    MODERATOR
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  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,918
    and why not?

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  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,456
    Just found this - wow what an engine. Put that thing in a lighter and larger vehicle (An Accord has 8 more cubic ft of interior space and weighs 500 lbs less) and imagine the performance and economy.

    Unbelievable.

    How can the US not want this technology.
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    dudleyr,

    I was a gasoline-engine user until I bought my actual 2004 BMW 530d (you may look at my user profile here for specs.). I only can now say that if with the 2004 530d engine I am so enchanted as I am, I cannot imagine how I would be with the performance of the new 535d.

    José
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,456
    Wish we had them in the U.S.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I really think you'll see this engine here in at least 2 BMWs in 2007 since BMW has recently announced that they will sell diesels here for 2007. I mean a X5 with this engine would be great too I think. I think the basic 3.0L six in the 330i and 530i will have to be upgraded before they launch such an engine in those bodystyles here because it simply makes the "petrol" versions look pointless.

    I saw a comparo on Auto, Motor und Sport TV between the 535d and the MB E400 CDI and the BMW beat the Benz and the E400 is a V8! The V8 in the E400 only made 260hp and has since been revised to make 314hp. Mercedes' new V6 (yes V6, the I6 is gone) makes 224hp, but there is a tri-turbo version that makes 286hp that is almost certain for production.

    These engines from BMW and MB are coming here as soon as out diesel fuel is cleaned up. Bet on it!

    M
  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    Hot dog! 272 hp out of 3Ls?? Sometimes I wish I lived in Europe. Instead of efficient yet environmentally friendly non-hybrid luxury ways of propulsion, we get Escalades and H2's.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,456
    Can't wait.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yep! I think that if the Germans play their card right they'll give these hybrids a real run for their money, only if they get the word out that diesels aren't anything like they used to be. They need not be slow, smelly or all that more expensive than their "petrol" counterparts. Once you get people to look and try I think these new diesels will sell themselves.

    M
  • eieioeieio Posts: 1
    I agree - except that Magneto Marelli - a FIAT group company like Alfa-Romeo - invented common rail with electronic controls - though the idea was long known from large marine diesels - such in low speed form being under 100 rpm (ultra-high turbocharged very long stroke two-strokes - often 90,000 hp at 90 (not a misprint) rpm - direct drive to propellor (usually variable pitch) with no need for reduction gears - or medium speed (not much above the idle of a good car engine - any speed over 900 rpm being deemed in marine diesel terms - high speed) such being 4 strokes with <square< (almost) dimensions - ie. equal bore and stroke but if any departure from that a slightly bigger stroke than bore. It was the electronic controls available that enabled the application to diesels above 1 litre with rpm up to 5K. Bosch saw its benefits and bought out the Italians, or obtained a licence with great benefits to the Bosch Foundation.
    Mercedes diesels were pre-chamber when naturally aspirated - in car form. The Class 7 and 8 truck Mercedes diesels were direct injection usually by an in-line Bosch pump. The difference between pre-chamber and direct injection is similar to the difference (in performance and efficiency) in SI - spark-ignition engines - (usually vergaser) to side-valves vs. ohv - in path of combustion gases. Pre-chamber diesels need 22:1 CR instead of direct injection 18:1.
    When turbocharging is used then the CR (with no boost applying) can go down to 16:1. Such CR obviously builds up as the turbo (s) deliver boost. Having the non-boost CR much below that leads to difficulties in starting - as it is a CI - compression-ignition - engine. Insufficient compression through design, or wear or say valve seat or broken ring leakage - and one would need to start - if at all - with ether and soluble oil.
    Dr. Hubbert just retired as head of Mercedes cars said that common-rail would "sweep the industry" and he was correct. More developments are coming.
    The higher the fuel pressure the greater the efficiency.
  • reecereece Posts: 1
    Just read a test of the BMW 535d, this engine is amazing! A 3,0L diesel with 272hp and 414ft.lbs, that's more than the new 330i's 258hp! You Americans are missing out on the diesel evolution here in Europe. Just a few years ago when BMW introduced the first 530d it was rated at 184hp, while at the time the 528i was rated at 193hp. At that time diesels put out less horsepower than it's gasoline counterparts, but today the diesels surpass their gasoline counterparts! Not only BMW's diesel engines but about every European carmaker's diesels.

    I just read about the new Mercedes E420CDI, witch puts out 314hp, and 540ft.lbs from a 4,0L V8 diesel! The E500 only puts out 306hp from a 5,0L V8 gas engine!
    But it's the torque of the diesel engines that's the real advantage, they have so much more torque than gas engines!

    The new BMW 320d, this is a 2,0L inline 4, that puts out 163hp and 252ft.lbs of torque. It does 0-60 in 8,4sec and a top speed of 138mph with an automatic! The manual numbers are even more impressive! It averages 35,3 miles to the gallon.

    I feel al little sorry for you amreicans since you don't have this technology over there.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    I feel al little sorry for you amreicans since you don't have this technology over there.

    Welcome to the Forum. We do appreciate you folks in Europe perfecting the diesel vehicles. So when we do finally get them they will be the best. Have a fine week.

    PS
    Have hybrids made any impact in Europe that you have noticed?
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    "Have hybrids made any impact in Europe that you have noticed?"

    Not much, to the best of my knowledge. There are reviews and articles from time to time in the specialized press, but I barely see hybrids kicking the roads/streets, at least in Spain and the south of France, which are the places I mostly stroll.

    Best regards,
    José
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    Hoping not to move away too much from the BMW 535d topic of this forum since I will keep into Diesels, I post in the following some news taken from Winding Roads electronic magazine (requests at requests@windingroad.com).

    #1. Mercedes-Benz Gets It
    Mercedes will offer two fascinating new sports cars, the SL400 and the SLK320 CDIs. These cars are interesting because they should be among the first sports car chassis to sport diesel power. And not just any diesel power. The 320 CDIs will come with a tri-turbo V-6 dishing out 465 lb&#149;ft of torque. The SL400 will have a twin-turbo V-8 diesel that jumps off the line under the auspices of 538 lb-ft of grunt. Thesecars should accelerate faster than the base gasoline cars. Socialresponsibility meets fun. Ja!

    #2. Mercedes Diesels Set Record
    In May, three Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI sedans set world diesel
    endurance records, covering 100,000 miles at an average speed of
    139 mph. Each car completed over 20,000 laps at the Laredo, Texas,
    high-speed circuit during a 30-day period. Mercedes was particularly
    interested in demonstrating the durability of its new maintenance-free
    particulate filter, part of a package of emissions control features that
    make diesel a practical alternative for the future.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I've read about those too, mainly at Germancarfans.com. The SLK320 CDI though hasn't been officially announced for production since according to Mercedes those three turbos in that V6 are very expensive to build.

    The only thing I wonder about is how these engines will sound with the top down on a SLK or SL. Other than that if these go into production they should give these two roadsters a much broader appeal in Europe. We'll never see such a thing in the U.S.

    M
  • 330iii330iii Posts: 71
    Make mine an 07 / 08 535d or 335d? Via European Delivery! :shades:
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    Although the 535d sure is the engine that cast more temptations around, the 530d one has also some advantages. I am translating here a comparo appeared in a Spanish magazine.

    Acceleration 80-120 km&#149;h (49.71-74.56 mi&#149;h)
    BMW 530d manual: 4.9 sec
    BMW 535d auto: 4.4 sec

    Recuperation 80-120 km&#149;h (49.71-74.56 mi&#149;h) in 4th gear
    BMW 530d manual: 5.6 sec
    BMW 535d auto: 5.6 sec

    Recuperation 80-120 km&#149;h (49.71-74.56 mi&#149;h) in 5th gear
    BMW 530d manual: 7.1 sec
    BMW 535d auto: 7.5 sec

    Perhaps more important is that the 535d averages 2 l&#149;100km more than the 530d does (that is, 0.85 gallon&#149;100mi more). The 525d should indeed be more economic and still enough efficient.

    However, there is no other Diesel car quicker than the BMW 535d in its segment.

    Best regards,
    José

  • austxjraustxjr Posts: 1
    As long as we're dreaming (but might wake up from that dream in less than two years) why don't we wish for a BMW 530THD (Turbo Hybrid Diesel) that runs on biodiesel or better yet, an M3 with a THD engine. After all the gas 3.2L M3 engine produces just over 104 hp/L normally aspirated. With hybrid on a diesel you could get higher torque at 0 rpm off the line (with the engine stopped to save fuel) and increase mileage another 10 to 30%. Theorhetically the electric engine would just have to spin the diesel (and move the car) to compression start the engine after shutting it off at desirable times. It just might be able to match the M3 performance and more than double it's mileage! All that an almost no greenhouse gases, sulphur, or particulate matter with biodiesel and a boost to national security and U.S. farmers..... it's a win, win, win.

    Just because I'm selling my pristine '97 328iC with only 56K on it (before gas goes to $4 a gal and it loses all value) after I return from Mexico in three weeks in order to buy a '98 or '99 M-B TDI to become a tree hugging diesel owner doesn't mean I don't drool over the M3 and want my cake and eat it too.

    Anybody know how one can bring these diesels into the U.S. grey market like they did with Eurocars in the '80's? If you run biodiesel in them then the low sulphur thing doesn't make a bit of difference (though if you had to fill up with regular U.S. diesel at some point it might hurt the PM filter or the emissions gear on the diesel - the solution is to carry a 5gal container of biodiesel in the trunk just in case) since biodiesel has 80% to 100% less sulphur than petro diesel (U.S.) and usually 1/3rd the sulphur of Euro low-sulphur diesel.

    austxjr
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    I reproduce in the following a link I have just posted at the 'Luxury Performance Sedans' here in Edmund's Forums.

    http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/

    According to it, the best new engines this year are

    1. BMW 5-litre V10 (M5, M6) 251 points

    2. Ferrari 4.3-litre V8 (F430) 146

    3. Toyota 3.3-litre Hybrid (Lexus RX400h) 133

    4. Porsche 3.8-litre (911) 130

    5. BMW Diesel 3-litre Twin-Turbo (535d) 121

    6. Honda 3-litre Hybrid (Accord) 90
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