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2007 Toyota Camry

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Comments

  • No MT is offered, so enthusiast don't care. The suspension is not adjusted enough on the SE to make a sales difference.

    If 100k Camry sales are V6, the SE probably wasn't any more than 20k. The cost to tuned two engines, when you aren't making suspension or transmission improvements to improve sales, just doesn't justify.

    Either make a sports sedan version, or don't. The current SE is hardly a real effort to make one.

    DrFill
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I've already cited evidence to you of dealers where the V6 is 33% of inventory.

    www.carsontoyota.com

    ~alpha
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    If its one dealer you are looking at then that's not statistically relevant any more than our inventory which is 90+% 4c. Their website mentions 142 Camry's ( out of 400000+ sold per year ) I was looking for something you might have seen at WARDS or some other industry publication about nationwide Camry sales. The 84% figure was in an article here or another site which on balance seems reasonable. It's half way between your 75% and my 90%.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Fair enough. 16% of 400K is still 64,000 V6 Camrys... though I really think it runs at 20-25%, based on what Ive read. According the WSJ, it was up until only recently (due to gas prices), that the Accord stopped running 25-30% V6s, and that 4 is stronger than the Camrys....

    ~alpha
  • The quality and reliability of the old 3.0 will be missed. Toyota had had this engine in some form or another since 1998 (9 model years) with only minor tweaks such as adding VVTI. I had a 1999 V6 LE that I used for 6 years without a single problem, the engine was one the smoothest and quietest I have ever driven, always ready with a reserve of power whenever you needed it. I used to travel a lot those days and use rental cars (mostly GM/Ford) and just long to get back to home base and drive my Camry again, it was such a world apart from the competition. :)

    I drove a friend's Lexus RX 330 and also a rental Solara recently, both of which have has the 3.3 V6 and I cannot say I was as pleased. Although supposedly more powerful, the 3.3 was just not as satisfying, felt less like a car engine and more like an SUV/Minivan engine (which is probably the more common application of this engine anyway). Just did not feel as much in control. :mad:
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Thats rather strange. The 3.3L essentially *IS* the 3.0L.

    You also are comparing a V6 in a car to a V6 in a much heavier SUV, and the 3.3L has greater emissions controls and is hooked up to a different transmission than youre used to. The comparison is so far from apples to apples, Im not sure it means very much.

    ~alpha
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    I am more curious where Toyota will go with the 4-cyl. Big boost in fuel economy? Add another 20 hp? Change nothing, keep prices low?

    My vote is for a big fuel economy boost.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    The 2.4L will add 12 real horses and about 5 foot-pounds of twist, to 166 hp and 165. This will occur via the use of VVT on both the intake and exhaust valves, and will give a performance boost as well as hopefully improve overall MPG by 1 or 2, depending on weight gain of the redesign and gearing.

    Thats my guess, anyway, but I bet its correct.

    ~alpha
  • For more info on the next Camry 4. Just adjust slightly upward in economy numbers.

    DrFill
  • What makes you guys think this is even possible?

    Honda just did the same thing for the power, but didn't see any improvement in mileage. Why do you think Toyota will eek out 2 MPG on top of the performance boost?

    The biggest thing Toyota could do to improve the highway MPGs is to reduce the coefficient of drag for the body. Bucking the wind takes over 50% of your power at highway speeds. A reduction from the current 0.29 to 0.26 or so should improve highway MPGs by 5% or so.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    "What makes you guys think this is even possible?"

    Well, for one, Toyota said that the engine would have 166 horses in the RAV, and two, the addition of Dual VVTi has yielded a benefit of 1-2 MPG in the efficiency of the RAV 4 4 cylinder 4A (both FWD and AWD) according to the press release that went out today. Aerodynamics you argue? Fair enough, but aerodynamics dont play a significant role on the EPAs city figures, and those went up too.

    So, thats why I believe its possible.
    :P
  • OK, that sounds reasonable.

    But aren't you comparing two different vehicles (this is a redesign correct?) with similar engines and attributing all of the mileage difference to the engine? Any reduction in weight or a more efficient transmission or reduction in drivetrain friction could have accounted for none, some, most, or all of the mileage improvement.

    Hopefully, Toyota will deliver. It just seemed to me that you guys were attributing all of these changes to the engine and not other factors.

    Any improvement in mileage will make Toyota the class leader. I'm skeptical that they are capable of getting into a big lead, though. Plus, the better they do with the standard 4, the less of a reason there will be to buy the hybrid version.
  • Correction: The current generation is 0.28.
  • Adjusted gearing can definitely improve economy, as would a different transmission, if necessary. Toyota is pretty good at more + more = MORE!

    I'd like to se 26/35 or in that neighborhood.

    That sounds right to me.

    I believe the Hybrid will be V6 based, similar to the Accord Hybrid, with simiar mileage. I would've went after the 4 cylinder, but they may not want to derail the Prius express at this point.

    DrFill
  • That sounds likely to me as well. But I don't think that it will be more. And I don't think it will all come from improvements to the engine.

    Does Toyota have a history of backtracking on their press releases? They already stated the hybrid would be a 4.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Uh, the RAV is gaining 12 inches in length, and I can assure you that weight savings in other places arent going to offset that gain. I'd also argue that the RAV4 has a shorter geared 4sp auto as opposed to the Camrys 5A. Given those factors against increased fuel efficiency, I'd say the gain is due to the significant mods to the existing engine. I think thats reasonable.

    My guess for the next Camry 4 cylinder 5A is 25/35. Heck, if Toyota can manage 22/31 from a 269 horse 3.5L, I think its doable. Besides, its just an educated guess.

    ~alpha
  • Not for improved power, but to MATCH the V6 power, whatever that is, by detuning the Six, and filling the gap with electric power.

    Let's say the V6 Camry is around $24k, and gets 22/30, and is 245HP.

    Would you buy a Hybrid with more standard features, that gets 235HP, but has more torque, cost $30k, and get 34/31?

    DrFill
  • When you throw thing like that out, try to include the background. Otherwise it appears to just be a guess, with no education attached.

    I was just asking for the backround, no need for the indignation. Huh
  • Your reasoning is solid. I was just wondering why you think that Toyota would backtrack on their previous statements about the hybrid being a 4. Do you think it is to throw off the competition? Such a move could also hurt credibility with the consumer.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    The question initially posted inquired about the 4 cylinder engine that the upcoming Camry will use. I answered that question, and provided reasoning. I didnt realize we had to elaborate our entire knowledge on a vehicle in order to make sense, but what should I know, I've only been a member on these forums for 6 years.

    ~alpha
  • I believe this site was the one putting over the V6/Hybrid concept.

    Doesn't mean that by 2010, the 4 won't have a new playmate itself, right. The Camry will most probably be the one line to get two Hybrids first.

    Do you think a 45MPG Camry will boost sales?

    DrFill
  • I do think that a 45 MPG Camry will boost sales, but probably at the expense of the Prius. Toyota's positioning of the hybrid will be interesting to watch. I almost wonder if they won't position it as an alternative (and eventually a replacement for) the V6 Camry.

    Then if you want a V6, you can buy an Avalon or Lexus.
  • Yes, and I was just saying that the mileage of the vehicle will be determined by more than the engine. Engines produce torque and horsepower, but not MPGs in isolation.

    And congratulations on your 6 years of board service! You must be very proud, indeed.
  • If a Camry were to have 42-43MPG at some point, the next-Gen Prius, being a feul economy first vehicle, could use the latest weight/fuel saving technology to get 65MPG, and that would justify it's existence and 100k+ sales.

    DrFill
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Maybe they'll have a 4 cylinder hybrid that gets 40MPG. That way it won't encroach on the Prius.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I believe the Hybrid will be V6 based, similar to the Accord Hybrid, with simiar mileage. I would've went after the 4 cylinder, but they may not want to derail the Prius express at this point

    I believe that Honda made a mistake in linking the IMA to the V6 just for a boost in power and somewhat better FE. Honda does like to beat 'yota to market for the positive publicity. The Insight is still referred to as the first mass produced hybrid here. But it seems that they are hasty to a fault at times.

    For the Camry I'm sure it will be based on the revised 2.4L with the HSD added for horsepower and torque. If the new RAV today is the benchmarrk at 166 hp and one can assume a modest increase in FE from the current Camry model. The 25/35(/30) figure mentioned above for the ICE-only system sounds right.

    I'm guessing that the HSD 4c will be in the 47/37/42 range or about 35-45% better than the ICE-only 4c system....but with ~ 225 hp it should be about 50-60% better on FE than the current V6 model.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    My point for discussion was that the new system would be a 4c that got V6 power.

    I believe that it will boost sales modestly ( +50000 HSD Camry's ) but not necessarily at the expense of the Prius. I think they are looking at Nissan, Honda, Chevy, Ford owners who are not into gadgets but do want V6 power ( they may never have driven anything smaller than a V6 in their lives ). If 'yota is coming out with the HSD Camry next spring the marketing is done already and they are pretty sure that:
    a) they are not going to cannibalize their existing 4c base by just switching them up; some ( like me who drive mega miles ) might do so. 4c owners BTW are normally VERY frugal to the point where anything above the standard LE is a Luxo-boat. I've had 4 of them.
    b) they have found that the Prius owner is unique and that the mundane Camry is not appealing enough; the Prius will always be cutting edge.
    c) the targetted V6 non-Toyota driver is much like the existing 4c Camry owner; They want good solid performance in a comfortable and non-threatening vehicle which BTW gets incredibly good FE.
  • I only report the news. I'm not making it up at this time.

    I have read on this site that the Hybrid would be six-based, if only for the ease of transfering parts of sytems already in use into it. I, personally, would make a I-4/Hybrid as mentioned above, as it would have a bigger impact on sales and interest, as the Accord Hybrid is not exactly lighting up the sales charts.

    The only problem with that is if a Camry I-4 Hybrid cost $25k, and a Prius typically cost $25k, that could definitely impact Prius sales.

    DrFill
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The only problem with that is if a Camry I-4 Hybrid cost $25k, and a Prius typically cost $25k, that could definitely impact Prius sales.

    Agreed, but I believe that the correct comparison is most V6's are ~$25-27K - as is the Prius.

    I think there may be some movement from the Prius and from the ICE-4c Camrys to the new HSD Camry but I'd venture that it will not be very large;
    - will the typical 4c Camry owner who fights for a price under $20K suddenly see the light and pony up $26K for essentially the same vehicle he can buy for $21K as an ICE 4c in the new body style? Not in my experience. I'm one of these longtime 4c owners ( 1990 ) and while I sell the hybrids personally I wouldnt buy one for more power ( dont need it ) and ONLY ~40% better FE. ( I prefer the Prius )
    - will the Prius owner give up his/her SKS, bluetooth, Navi and unique style for more power and LESS fuel efficiency? Not likely.
    But..
    - will an V6 Accord/Camry/Taurus owner who's got 150K+ miles on his mid-90's tradein look at 220 HP and ~40 mpg est and new styling. That's a good bet.
  • Did you see this on the edmunds site as a news article or did you see this in the forum? If you can remember where the article was, could you post a link?

    If you saw it in the forum then the data is highly suspect since the forum is mostly filled with opinions.

    The only "official" news on this subject that I have seen was a press release by Toyota announcing that the hybrid Camry would be 4 cyl. Of course, I can't find the release. Can anyone repost a link to it?
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