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The Future of Saab?

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Comments

  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "Well that's sort of the problem isn't it? You drove a Catera and said "yeah, that's okay, not bad" and then you got into say a BMW 5 series and said "Oh, YEAH, that's more like it".

    Swap that with 3-series and you've explained my last car purchase. I DID test drive a 540 and loved it, but it was one of the ones with the nikasil blocks, as well as being an automatic, so i passed on it.

    And you're spot on with the saab as well. I test drove the 9-3 aero recently, quite nice but not a knockout that's going to get me to write a check for a big chunk of my yearly income. I'm still staying open minded about the v6 sportcombi, though.

    dave
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Isn't the Astra the Golf sized car? The Vectra is Malibu sized I think...
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    I'm not positive....you could be right...We're talking about 10 years ago now, anyway..the Catera came out in the mid to late 90's and was based on a car that probably came out in the early to mid 90s
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    The Catera was the Opel/Vauxhall Omega, introduced in Europe c. 93-94
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    Ok, that sounds right to me. I said up above, I thought it was an Omega, but I'll admit, I'm not an expert on mid-90's Opels!

    jchan - I think you're right, too - the Astra is the Golf sized car, the Vectra is a mid-sizer.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Year to date + 6.0%

    June 2005 + 49.7%

    Are things stabilizing?
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    Do Saabs qualify for GM employee pricing? I'm guessing they do, and that is why sales are way up for June. It's not because of the 9-7x, since they aren't in dealers yet.
  • chicagodrive1chicagodrive1 Member Posts: 64
    Are they still marketing these cars to the quirky/tree hugger segment... or has that been taken over by Subaru?

    Yeah, the placement of the ignition in a Saab is cool - but what else about the car is?

    Maybe they should introduce a third windshield wiper and a fifth wheel. Maybe that will draw back the "Eccentric" crowd.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    qualify for employee pricing according to the stickers on the ones at the dealership near me. AND they have huge cash rebates. Since they sell for less than Camrys, it is no wonder that sales are picking up. Is this a sustainable sales model? No, methinks.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • danf1danf1 Member Posts: 897
    Saabs do qualify for employee pricing. We sold 30 last month, which I think doubled our yearly output. The 9-7x is available. I think we sold one last month.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    One phrase explains why:

    GM Employee Pricing To The Public!

    9-2Xs for $16,821!

    Hopefully some new product will keep the sales going up, but that seems doubtful.
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    GM needs an escape hatch from this Employee Pricing thing. People are going to get used to it and then be shocked back into Toyotas and Hondas when they drop the huge incentives.

    DCX and Ford are going to match GM, apparently, while Toy/Hon/Nissan sit back and laugh.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,439
    they can just quietly start raising the employee price (aka invoice really), and keep the program, and buyers will pay more and still think they are doing good.

    I do still think this was GMs back door play to estblish fixed )non-negotiable) pricing everywhere, not just Saturn.

    GM execs are either geniuses (OK get off the floor now), or might just have pulled off a Jed Clampett move. Frankly, if they can revitalize SAAB sales like this, they can do anything!

    Still true that cheap sells. hopefully they aren't losing too much money doing it.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,439
    I think this proves to some extent that SAABs really haven't been bad cars for a while now, but certainly have been overpriced!

    At 30K for a fairly basic 9-3, I pass. At ~20K, it gets a serious look.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    I'm voting for the Jed Clampett scenario...

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  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "At 30K for a fairly basic 9-3, I pass. At ~20K, it gets a serious look."

    I think that is what is happening-- 9-3's are now competing with accords and camrys and the like. Those, they can easily outshine, depending on your point of view, of course. The problem came when they were competing dollar for dollar with bmws, acuras, etc.

    However, i don't think GM bought SAAB to compete with honda. Then again, what do i know.

    dave
  • dilldill Member Posts: 31
    Well, for starters there has been talk in previous posts that GM ownes Isuzu. That is not necessarily true. Does GM own Isuzu stock? - YES. Does GM own a majority of it? NO. Does GM own a controlling interest in the company? YES - That being said I think GM owns 26% of the company.

    Now onto Saab. Saab is in such better shape now than when they were the tiny independent maker of cars of old before GM came in and bought their car business in 1989. Saab was bleeding red ink in those dark days in the late 80's. They were having problems coming up with the capital to buy new machines that would help make their cars, at lower cost with better efficiency. Saab was losing marketshare because of Volvo, and especially the Japanese makes Toyota and Honda. Volvo was the dominant Swedish brand in the US. I am willing to say it was the only European nameplate that was successful in catering itself to the family with their station wagon needs and their reputation for safety and there was some models especially in the very late 80's that had stylish and pretty quick cars with the 760 and 780 represented. Saab was lacking a large group who sought their products out especially in the US their largest market outside of Sweden. The one thing Saab had was a small group of very fiercely loyal following. The only problem was for others to consider Saab, Saab had to change their image of appealling to the absent minded college professor type, pipe smoking, cardigan sweater wearing, mid 40's to 65 year old guy with a beard and a NY Times folded in his hands, He also has a V neck collar with elbow patches on the sleeves.

    GM went in there and has slowly changed the perception of what a Saab owner is like. Although the college professor type still applies, there aren't nearly the number of those types of owners out there driving those vehicles as there once were. Saab has always had alot of pride with doing the mundane in unorthodox ways. Stuff like putting the ignition in the floor, stuff like that was just par for the course. GM has continued in that tradition. GM might not go to the extremes Saab did in the past but they continued in their own way providing the quirkiness Saab owners crave.

    Nowadays Saab is selling more cars than they have in years. They still have a ways to go to demonstrate real successes with the number of sales in the US and elsewhere but they have made marked improvements. GM has big plans for Saab. GM bought Saab in the hopes of getting a European nameplate with a nice image in the hopes that some of that image would rub off on some of GM's other European offerings, Opel comes to mind mostly when I think of this. GM before buying Saab was in a bideding war with Ford for Jaguar. Ford under the direction of Jack Nasser (a Brit) bought the British company for 6 billion dollars. GM wanting to move quickly a month or so later made an agreement with Saab to pay 600 million up front for 50% of the car operations and after a 10 year window they had the right to buy the remaining 50% of Saab for another 600 million regardless of how much the remaining part of the company was worth according to the books. GM a few years ago now bought the remainder of Saab for the 600 million they had agreed to back in 1989. GM made out very well in that agreement.

    The big concern nowadays is whether the general public will be interested in buying a Saab that is actually a Subaru at heart? Or whether Cadillac BLS planned for Europe exclusively will be taken seriously by potential buyers and sell well. Cadillac like Chevrolet is trying to make names for themselves internationally. If they are going to be doing a lot of badge engineering and not differentiating their product line enough people aren't going to buy them in the numbers GM/Saab/Subaru or Cadillac will be happy with.

    I am ok with Saab using badge engineering with the Chevy trailblazer. It is a decent vehicle that will do all the people moving and towing Saab owners would want or expect to do, it would do it reliably and without much difficulty. The only thing that would be good to see on the Trailblazer Saab is a anti-roll over gyro-scopic device like the Volvo XC 90 has had in the past year and now the Ford Explorer will have in the next model year. It would be good for Saab to have this device because Saab has been known for safety and this is a safety device. Saab also has also a history for having unorthodox things and since a device like this is so new it would make it standout from the rest of the market. The main jist to a brand is, for the products to standout in at least one way so they get noticed in the marketplace. If you can't differentiate your product in a way that merits people paying attention than, it will not live up to its potential.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    a rebadged TrailBlazer is not the way to go to fix the company, IMO.

    Howabout an SUV developed genuinely by Saab?
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    For now, Saab will have to limp along saleswise until the General gets some money to let Saab do what it wants. The 9-7x will not save them, the 9-6x will not either. The Employee Pricing does make the 9-3 and 9-5 very good deals, though.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    The 9-7X needs to be killed as soon as possible though.

    The same fate awaits the 9-2X.

    The 9-3 could use a redesign.

    The 9-5's redesign is long overdue.

    Saab is limping along, that's for sure, but whether GM will kill it or revive it is another story.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I pretty much agree with those suggestions for their current models.

    The 9-5 does get a facelift this fall and I think the new turbo V6 will put some life into the 9-3. That Sport Combi on Edmund's main page looks like a real Saab, dynamic and different.

    I still like the 9-3, unlike every other "Saab" vehicle.

    What so sad about the Saablazer is that they've botched the launch on a product nobody will want anyway.

    M
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    When is the facelifted 9-5 scheduled to be introduced in this part of the world (U.S.)?
  • davidc1davidc1 Member Posts: 168
    I think they should keep the 9-2x. Saab could use an AWD. And I find it better than Subaru WRX. Same could be said about the 9-6x.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    may have sold out for the first time I can recall - their "Introduction" on the 9-7x is full of praise of its uniqueness and its rich interior. They have a picture looking forward in the cabin, and it is so painfully obvious that the steering wheel is just the one from the Trailblazer with a Saab logo tacked on, you just can't miss it. OK, so they spent ten minutes sportifying a Trailblazer so they could call it a Saab. If the TB is vanilla, the 9-7x is vanilla bean, just like so many other models GM rebadges. The flavors are too similar.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    As much as i think the 9-7 is a dog, the 9-5 needs to be killed/redesigned first. It's a classic saab, and has some great features, but the car has truly ancient parts.

    The 9-3 needs an interior upgrade more than anything else. Same for the 9-2.
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    Basically, the 9-7x and the 9-2x were quick stop gaps to try to keep the brand alive while other new models like the 9-6x, the next gen 9-5, etc.. are developed. That's the impression I get....
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is such a distinctive-looking vehicle (which is not to say good-looking necessarily) that if they build the Saab version (9-6) I am sure it will be much more blatant to the eye that it is a rip-off, ahem, rebadge.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think this winter, but I'm not sure. I do know that it will be shown at the Frankfurt autoshow in Sept.

    See Here

    M
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    It depends - if they just slap a new nose on the Tribeca and call it a 9-6x, (like they did with the 9-2x), I'll be disappointed. (Even though that would be a huge improvement for the Tribeca's ugly schnozz! LOL!) If they use the Tribeca 'platform' to make a unique Saab, that would be another story....(just like the 9-3 and the Malibu share a platform)

    Actually, I've read conflicting reports - some say the 9-6x will use the Tribeca platfom, others say it will use the GM "theta" ? (not sure of the name of the platformm, but the one used by the Equinox, VUE, etc...) Not sure which is more accurate or up-to-date....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I have a feeling this car will be a minor hit for them. The Tribeca's nose is controversial and that's the one thing Saab will address. In this case conservative styling would work, I think, appealing to the folks who are polarized by Subaru's look.

    Pricing will be key, but let's hope the 9-7s helps limit the prices they can set.

    9-2x prices were crazy high. Similar to the Legacy GT. With discounts it'll meet forecasts, even exceed them:

    4 month sales from Jan-April 2005: 1184
    May 2005 sales: 1042

    June will be another great month. They had forecast just 8000 for the whole year and they can meet that goal if the employee pricing lasts.

    Price is right, and the 9-6s will be a hit.

    FWIW I hear the 9-5 is getting only a re-do, but it'll stay on the existing platform.

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    is my favorite Saab that's in production right now.

    When are the replacements for the 'stopgap' Saabs supposed to come anyways? Next year? six months from now? two years from now? Five? Ten? :surprise:
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    ...the General Motors subsidiary will introduce eight models over the next eight years.

    Saab officials do not want to comment on the program. But there is excitement about the brand's opportunities among employees and dealers.

    "We finally get what we need to compete with Audi or BMW," one Saab dealer in Europe said.

    In the short term, Saab will present a face-lift of its 9-5 flagship model at the Frankfurt auto show in September. That move was necessary, the dealer said, because a successor model has been delayed by uncertainty over the brand's future. The current 9-5 debuted in 1997.

    The 9-3 sport wagon, which will debut this autumn, is expected to boost 9-3 sales. The sedan introduced in 2002 has not met expectations in a declining European market for sedans.

    Saab's next new model, the 9-6X, is based on Subaru's B9 Tribeca sport wagon. The 9-6X will be built starting next year at Subaru of Indiana Automotive Inc. in Lafayette, Ind.

    Saab's core models will be the 9-3 and 9-5. Successors of both models, based on GM's second-generation Epsilon architecture, will be produced at Opel's plant in Ruesselsheim, Germany, after 2008. "The two together should generate 150,000 annual sales volume," a Saab source said. "But niche models should bring Saab's future sales volume up to 250,000."

    Saab plans a successor to the Subaru-derived 9-2X, plus a Saab crossover vehicle.

    Last year, Saab built 122,805 cars, including 84,591 9-3 sedans and convertibles. Saab boosted production before the 9-3 sport wagon launch, making 8,665 units in April alone.

    "All future Saabs will be true Saab designs, not hybrids such as the Subaru-derived 9-2X or the Chevrolet TrailBlazer-derived 9-7X," the European dealer said. "The model strategy will be based on crossover vehicles and all-wheel drive."

    source -
    http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102627
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    9-3 is on the Malibu platform and they'll continue doing that type of platform sharing, only with more differentiation.

    But let's be honest, where do you think they're going to get AWD and crossover platforms from? Subaru...

    -juice
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    Well, yeah... Like I said up above somewhere, there's a difference between platform sharing - .i.e the Malibu, G6, and 9-3 share a platform, or the MDX and Pilot share a platform, etc....(don't the Legacy and Tribeca share a platform?) versus just blatant badge-engineering, like the current 9-2x and 9-7x. Platform sharing is just smart business. Everyone does it. It doesn't matter to me if the next 9-2x still shares with a Subaru, as long as they differentiate them better than they do now.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I just find it funny that they talk about the 9-3 as if it were completely unique. Saab just needs to get involved a littler earlier in the cycle. Not after it, like with the 9-2x.

    -juice
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    I'm pretty sure it was a joint venture platform with Fiat and Lancia - they split the development costs 3 ways and they each got a version of the car.
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    That might have been the old 9000 that was a joint venture with Lancia... Can't remember exactly...
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,370
    The Saab 9000 was based on a shared platform that was used by Fiat (Chroma), Lancia
    (Thema) and Alfa Romeo(164). The latter two were considered desireable cars, a Thema variant had the 2,8 V8 from the Ferrari 328.

    I'm unclear as to how then independent Saab ended up in bed with Fiat.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    The the old 9000 was the multi-mfgr hybrid.

    The 9-5 is based off an opel platform that was even somewhat old then.

    The 9-5 is a good car in regards to equipment/$ and safety--but the platform badly needs a revamp. The areo has to limit torque in the first 2 gears so even with the very potent engine, it doesn't really feel that fast at lower speeds. For example, i don't know why you'd get the 9-5 aero over the s60R if you like the swedespeed formula.

    I personally think it'd be a more atractive package if the 9-5 interior/equipment was somehow transplanted onto the 9-3 platform, and the v6 was standard across the 9-5 line.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I drove a CPO model, they're nice and roomy. Turbo lag was pretty bad, though. I think you can get away with a four turbo in a light car but not something this big.

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    How come GM got rid of the light pressure turbo V6 on the 9-5?
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    The old v6 had issues, such as needing a 60K mile timing belt change, and it didn't get as much power as the 4-banger. It wasn't that great of an engine. The new v6 is wayyy better.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    why don't they put in the new V6?

    A 4 cylinder, albeit turbocharged, isn't exactly what the majority of the luxury car buying public wants...

    I wouldn't mind having a 4 cylinder though. Better fuel economy...
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Speaking of which, what engines are the company going to use when the 9-5 gets facelifted/restyled for 2006? Will they continue to use the 2.3 turbo four, reintroduce the V-6, what?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A turbo 4 works well in a lighter car, IMO, but the 9-5 is bigger and heavier and should have an engine that can move it along even off boost. Not to mention the prestige factor in that size/price class.

    -juice
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    The 'freshened' 9-5 would have the same 2.8L turbo V6 that the 9-3 Sport Combi is getting. But who knows?... just speculation on my part.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "why don't they put in the new V6? "

    Beats me. Maybe it won't fit, is too heavy for the architecture, or maybe they will, or maybe thy'll wait for a redesign to save $$.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Saab has fallen in line with the rest of GM (big surprise right?) by lowering prices on their 2006 models so they can at least try to wean buyers off of incentives. Like every other GM division last month, the employee discounts are moving Saabs in a pretty big way. Saab has also announced prices for the 9-3 SportCombi:

    Saab Story

    The 2006 9-3 Sedan and Convertible prices are also given in the same article. The 2006 prices seem quite reasonable to me.

    FYI - I'll be the first to apologize to GM if they really save and nurse Saab (by selling these pitiful badge engineered jobs) back to health and then allow the real Saab engineers to build a true Saab. Right now I can't see it happening though.

    M
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But wasn't the employee price around $22-23k? They're still going to have discounts and incentives.

    -juice
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "FYI - I'll be the first to apologize to GM if they really save and nurse Saab (by selling these pitiful badge engineered jobs) back to health and then allow the real Saab engineers to build a true Saab."

    I think all the Saab engineers will be long-gone by the time, many years hence, that GM is done executing its "recovery plan" for Saab. They will have been starved for resources and autonomy for long enough that all the self-respecting ones will have gone off to do their work somewhere else or retired! :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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