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Where do sales of HEV go when gas goes $2.50-$3?

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Comments

  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi John:

    ___As usual, facts are posted by the most credible of sources and you come up with “vague”.

    The link: http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/vsearch/cleansearch_result.asp

    Quote: A Zero & Near-Zero emissions vehicle guide brought to you by the California’s Air Resources board.

    ___The ones missing are the KIA Spectra’s and the 05’s. Total count according to CARB gave 31 04’s + the KIA’s + the 05’s = 41. Can you add? Do you know what CARB is?

    Numbers are still missing too. Please provide quantity actually sold.

    ___How many did sell? If you want a PZEV, you have at least 41 non-Hybrid’s to choose from.

    As far as I'm concerned, vehicles like Insight, for example, don't even count since there are so few (only 34 sold nationwide in July.) The same could apply to your PZEV claim.

    ___Who mentioned the Insight? There were 41 std. ICE PZEV’s posted, no Hybrid’s.

    Prices are absent as well.

    ___Please post the PZEV prices from your link as you posted it. I didn’t see anyone ask for it but you did so feel free: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccvl/2004sulevpzevlist.htm

    No matter, the odds of any automaker embracing PZEV on the large scale is simply not going to happen. Many have already filed lawsuits against CARB for that very reason. Voluntarily adding cost to their vehicles at the penalty of decreasing the MPG a little bit for the sake of cleaner emissions is just plain not realistic. That's why hybrids, like Prius, are so much more appealing instead.

    ___Really? Honda has the HCH, and Accord. Ford has the many CNG’s and Focus’. GM has the largest contingent of SULEV based 05 SUV’s and trucks the world has ever seen. Toyota produces the Prius II and Camry PZEV’s. Along with Toyota’s 2 PZEV’s, they also have the award winning distinction of manufacturing 4 automobiles that have an EPA emissions score of “0” ! There are only 5 automobiles you can buy today that have an EPA score of “0” and 4 of those come from Toyota including the Lexus LX470, Toyota Land Cruiser, Toyota Sequoia 2 and 4WD’s. Is Toyota suing CARB given this world class distinction?

    ___Finally, what was up with your statement: “And of those 16, only 1 is available outside of California.”?

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    But the point has been entirely missed.

    If the automaker only offers a token quantity, you're screwed. There simply isn't a product to buy, even though it does in fact exist.

    Toyota will be delivering 80,000 Prius to the United States for the 2005 model year. They delivered 47,000 for 2004.

    How many PZEV Focus were there? Only 1,000? Maybe even less?

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi John:

    ___Everything posted other then by you must be vague? You were wrong on the number of non-hybrid PZEV’s available, you were wrong on where they were available, and now you think there were less then 1,000 Focus PZEV’s sold. Where does your imagination end?

    Here is another for you:

    http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=19636

    By the end of this year, the air board estimates, there will be 140,000 PZEVs on California roads

    ___With maybe 15,000 Prius II PZEV’s to be sold in CA (guesstimate) and possibly 4,000 PZEV HCH’s (Guesstimate), how many PZEV’s were non-Hybrid’s? Hmmm, 140,000 – 19,000 = 121,000 std. ICE PZEV’s vs. 13,000 Hybrid PZEV’s. I am sure with your contacts, you could find out how many Prius II’s have been sold to date in California alone. Once you have that, go ahead and post it for all to see what kind of impact the Prius II is having on cleaning the air vs. the rest of those 140,000 PZEV’s.

    How many PZEV Focus were there? Only 1,000? Maybe even less?

    ___I don’t have a number nor do you but if you purchased a Focus ZTS, ZX3, or ZX5 in Premium or higher trims, you purchased a PZEV here in Illinois. In other words, there was probably far greater then 1,000 PZEV Focus’ sold in Illinois alone let alone the rest of the country.

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,686
    Good article Wayne,
    I think they put their finger on the truth about some Prius owners. It is wanting to be seen as an environmentalist. If they were just interested in the environment they would buy a much more reasonably priced vehicle that is just as clean according to CARB.

    PZEVs look like any other car and cost only about $100 more than less-clean versions of the same model. And some models are considerably cheaper than hybrids. While a standard 2004 Toyota Prius costs $20,510, a Ford Focus PZEV costs only $13,370.
    "You can have bragging rights on a hybrid because it is plainly a hybrid," Motavelli said. "Most PZEVs aren't marked PZEV, so nobody knows you have an environmentally correct car."
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > You were wrong

    No, I was more precise. There's a huge difference.

    Insisting on detail reveals the misleading content.

    For example, this quote... "By the end of this year, the air board estimates, there will be 140,000 PZEVs on California roads" ...is very misleading because it doesn't mention how many years of sales that actually includes. Doing the same for hybrids nationwide, you could come up with over 110,000.

    No matter, PZEVs totally ignore the other very important objective of reducing our dependence on oil. So they are not a realistic choice anyway. Devoting resources to a technology that only delivers half the need makes no sense.

    PZEV only fixes emissions.

    Diesel only fixes efficiency.

    Hybrids accomplish *BOTH*

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi John:

    No, I was more precise. There's a huge difference.

    ___Given your statement “And of those 16, only 1 is available outside of California”. Not only is that statement not even close to precise, it is completely false.

    Insisting on detail reveals the misleading content.

    ___Please provide the details on the above given your mis-statements as of late?

    is very misleading because it doesn't mention how many years of sales that includes. Doing the same for hybrids nationwide, you could come up with over 110,000.

    ___The Prius II is the only PZEV hybrid available from Toyota and it was only made available to the public in late 03. The PZEV based HCH is sold in smaller quantities so maybe you can come up with better numbers? I will stand by my ~ 121,000 non-Hybrid PZEV’s in California vs. your unknown yet much lower quantity any day of the week given the article as linked.

    No matter, PZEVs totally ignore the other very important objective of reducing our dependence on oil.

    ___I cannot fault you there. My $15K Corolla receives a lmpg within 3 mpg of your $27K Prius II when I drive but Toyota only allows it to be ULEV rated. Sorry, but that is Toyota&#146;s problem as I would have been very happy to pay the $135 extra for the PZEV HW as those in California do for the PZEV rated Accord. Given the 800,000 + Accord and Camry sales vs. the < 50,000 Prius II&#146;s, what do you think of the possible cleanliness of the air up in Minnesota if Toyota offered the PZEV option to all those Accord and Camry buyers? That would be at least 16 X as many PZEV&#146;s! A PZEV based Accord would give me within 5 mpg of your lmpg and for upwards of ten thousand less yet has lower overall emissions. Care to bring up the Initial and TCO costs of an Accord for everyone to read in this thread? Edmunds will allow the links given it is their information.

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,686
    No matter, PZEVs totally ignore the other very important objective of reducing our dependence on oil.

    Wrong again John! The Civic GX uses NO foreign oil except for lubrication. And at current CNG prices it is about 30% less costly to drive than the Prius. You are going to have to get used to the fact that hybrid is not the only economy game in town.

    Named the cleanest internal-combustion vehicle on Earth by the EPA

    In addition the GX comes fully equpped for about $21k in all 50 states. AND it has better crash test results...
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > My $15K Corolla receives a lmpg within 3 mpg of your $27K Prius

    Rather than comparing propulsion systems, that comment highlights trim level prices instead... which is not objective.

    In fact, the price isn't even correct. I paid $1K less than that.

    Rather than comparing similiar driving types, that comment compares highway-only data to mixed driving... which is not objective.

    Also note that the Prius MPG quote is incorrect, it is off by over 5 MPG when you take into account the remaining summer months, the fact that E10 used for fuel instead of 100% gas, the fact that high-traction tires rather than the standard ones, and the fact that the new tires required break-in too. Ignoring all that is not objective.

    Clearly, a constructive discussion is not possible.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > Named the cleanest internal-combustion vehicle on Earth by the EPA

    Correct, that is true.

    However, what actually comes out of the tailpipe is still dirtier than the HSD system.

    GX is only rated at ULEV.

    Prius is rated at PZEV.

    Should I also point out the limited range and filling locations of GX?

    Face it, hybrids pocess a tremendous amount of potential... especially as the price of gas continues to climb up.

    JOHN
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,719
    "Regardless, we need actual numbers to validate any claim. We need to be specific no matter what the outcome. Show me the data."

    Ummm, I don't own a Prius. Could you please measure the width and depth of the area behind the rear seat? Otherwise I have no source for data, since Toyota has no interest in posting such facts.
  • But you have to take into consideration the higher purchase price for a hybrid version of the equivalent car. An HCH is about $3-4K more than a comparable EX. A Prius, notwithstanding it's technical designation as a midsize, is closer to a Corolla than a Camry, and the base model price is probably at least the same price premium over a comparable Corolla. And once you add the $5K for Package #9... forget it.

    So in your example, even a lifetime savings of $3K in fuel simply breaks you even.

    I'm a big supporter of hybrids - I own two. But until the price comes down, this is really more of a "support the technology and spread the word" choice than a financial one.

    Mike
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    I think everyone can assume that a fraction of 1% of the US population knows what PZEZ is. 1% would be pushing it. In addition less than 1% of the population views this board. The few folks her bantering back and forth will not solve the problems we currently have with emissions. Let's face it, hybrids are here to stay and I kinda wish I owned one now. Name one car that you can drive for nearly a year, put 10,000 miles on it and sell it for what you paid for it???? Look at ebay and you'll see Prius' selling for MSRP with 10k miles on them!! Crazy!!
  • Well the people buying the prius and other hybrids usually aren't the problem. It's people like my neighbors who have a F150 and surburban for city driving and don't even tow or off road. Hummers and excursions should be regulated or have to pay more for gas.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,686
    The GX is a natural-gas vehicle, so it doesn't use conventional gasoline; and it makes nearly zero emissions. In highly-polluted urban areas, the exhaust coming out of the tailpipe can actually be cleaner than the air outside. So it's no surprise that the strict California Air Resources Board calls the GX an Advanced Technology Partial Zero-Emission Vehicle (AT-PZEV). The American Council for Energy-Efficient Economy even ranks the Civic GX above some electric vehicles on its list of The Greenest Vehicles of 2003.* With the GX, you can tap into North America's abundant fuel supply to power the car. So you'll save money, and we'll all be less dependent on foreign oil. It's a tangible, effective way to help protect the environment for generations to come.

    *The Civic GX placed second, behind only the Honda Insight.


    http://www.hondacars.com/models/environment.asp?ModelName=Civic+G- X
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi John:

    Rather than comparing similiar driving types, that comment compares highway-only data to mixed driving... which is not objective.

    ___A Prius II&#146;s strengths up against the Corolla&#146;s strengths I would say ;-)

    Also note that the Prius MPG quote is incorrect, it is off by over 5 MPG when you take into account the remaining summer months, the fact that E10 used for fuel instead of 100% gas, the fact that high-traction tires rather than the standard ones, and the fact that the new tires required break-in too. Ignoring all that is not objective.

    ___Not only is your lmpg just 49 mpg and mine is over 45 when I drive but I use E10 here and have posted my tank over tanks from that same winter period to today as well?

    ___Ignoring your changed tires? So what. The Corolla has more rubber on the road right off the dealers lot given the tire width and is less affected by side winds. How about the advantage in aerodynamics? Can you say .29 vs. .26 Cd?

    Clearly, a constructive discussion is not possible.

    ___When you continue to post falsehoods, you do indeed have nothing constructive to add …

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    WOW 45????? My neigbor barely gets 29 overall in his 2003! And he drives conservatively. What's your secret?
  • OK, this discussion has begun to duplicate other (hostile) arguments in existing discussions. I'm closing this topic for now. As you move on to other topics, please take note of the tone of your posts, and stay away from personal attacks and accusations.

    kirstie_h
    Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

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