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Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna

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  • I wonder if we are leading ourselves astray when we concentrate on HP and torque alone. From Automotive engineering principles one knows that horsepower and torque donot tell the true story. The important ingredient is transfer of power(transmission) and how you get max torque at each of the gears and that the power is delivered to the wheels at optimum points on the HP vs Torque curve. There is also a trade off sought by the buyers when you are trying to get better fuel consumption albeit at lower rpms. Automotive enthusiasts usually get the torque they want by shifting manually(even the automatics). I find the mounting of the shift lever of the Sienna on the floor to be very easy to adjust the rpm to the torgue needed using L thru D (5 speed)gears of the transmission shiftor. What would be nice to see is at what point on the HP vs transmission output torque vs RPM curve for each gear does shifting take place to get max torgue at the wheels? We talk a lot about HP and torque, but the real heroes are the powertrain systems guys that insure the gearing is proper in the transmission and differential and the tire size/performance are adequate. Is the 10% increase in torque noticeable to a van driver? We'll see when we get a chance to drive it.
    Tanker
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Automotive enthusiasts usually get the torque they want by shifting manually(even the automatics). I find the mounting of the shift lever of the Sienna on the floor to be very easy to adjust the rpm to the torgue needed using L thru D (5 speed)gears of the transmission shiftor.

    How many minivan drivers/buyers, honestly, do you think are "enthusiasts" who would shift their automatic manually? I'm gonna say a VERY slim percentage. They are going to push the throttle pedal harder when they need more power, and that's it.

    I'm not picking at you, just trying to draw a conclusive point that many people aren't going to be as sporty of a driver as you (or me, for that matter, and I leave my auto in D most of the time, with an occasional use of "D3"). These drivers will utilize on the automatic's computer to decide what gear to be in.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Sienna wins over ALL other minivans in transmission controls with the D-4-3-2-L :shades: while Ody has only D-3-L for a 5 speed AT and DaimlerChrysler has D-3-L for an old fashioned 4 speed AT. :cry:
    Agree that it would be nice to see HP vs transmission output vs RPM curve etc.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Actually, the Odyssey has D5-3-2-1. (There is a button for D3).
  • Hi Gang,

    Yes its me, the brand-new "Ody-owna" back with a few questions:

    (1) I've noticed a momentary lag when shifting from P or N into either Reverse or Drive before the tranny actually engages the selected gear (have stepped on the gas too soon and then "thudded" into gear once or twice). Delay seems a little longer than it should be. Is this normal for this tranny? Anybody else have this or know why its happening?

    (2) I'm guessing from the foregoing posts, that there is NO way to access D4 on the Odyssey. That's too bad b/c D3 hits 3k RPM by 50 mph on local roads but D5 lugs at that speed.

    (3) Has anyone had a dealer who has successfully addressed the 2000 rpm drone? Its not too bad when cruise is engaged or you just barely breathe on the throttle at speed, but it can be annoying at times.

    (4) How does one set the temp. (I have '07 EX with 3-zone) for the rear two rows from up front (i.e. NOT giving the 2nd row driver's side control over the rear fan/temp.). Is it slaved to the driver's zone or independently adjustable?

    (5) My '07 EX came with the underfloor storage bin between the 1st two rows but no lazy susan - should that have been included or is that a decontented item for '07?

    As always, thanks for all your help! :)

    -FS
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    1.) How long is the delay in gear changes from the moment your lever goes to the "D" position? There is about a 1 sec. delay in my 06 Accord, and in my dad's 07 Civic as well.

    2.) There is no way to select D4 manually in the Odyssey. Giving it some throttle will certianly make it downshift to 4th though.

    3.) There are people who have successfully reduced/removed the 2,100 RPM droning; I believe it had to do with straightening something in the exhaust system, but I don't remember the details - maybe someone else can help out?

    4.) The temp coming out of the rear vents will always be what the control is set on in the back I believe, even if you are controlling the fan from the front (also, the air flow is decided by this second row switch as well).

    5.) I think you should check with your dealer and ask where your lazy susan is! That is where you are supposed to store your 8th person seat, if it has been decontented, where do you put the seat?
  • fx35awdfx35awd Posts: 218
    (5) I have an '07 EX-L and it does not have the lazy susan. They took it and put it in the touring model for the '07. However, you can purchase one like some one has posted in one of these forums and it would just fit fine by dropping it in.
  • fx35awdfx35awd Posts: 218
    Has any one having this experience where warm air comes out of your vents even when you have your fan set on the coolest/lowest temperature on your Hon Ody 2005+? I had this happened to my old Infiniti FX35 and Lexus IS300, which was a design flaw, I think. Thanks!
  • you are right. Not many van drivers have a second car '85 Vette either where you use the shifter often. I picked up the shifting habit by driving with GM engineers in Detroit who use the transmisssion for acceleration and braking. Makes driving fun and gives you that sports car feeling. Down shifting the Vette- now that is a thrill. The 4500 lb Sienna doesnot quite give you the same thrill.
    Tanker
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The 4500 lb Sienna doesnot quite give you the same thrill.

    What? "Use them 3.3 Liters of Fury!!! Those aren't 215 horses, they are 215 bucking broncos baby!!!

    Haha, You can make a car fun if you try hard enough, and it sounds like you like to try! I applaud that!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I agree that I'd like to see the two torque curves overlaying each other to see where the increases are.

    However, other vehicles that got this engine upgrade have shown pretty significant improvements in performance, and usually with small gains in fuel efficiency.

    Like I said, I heard 20/27, we'll see what the final numbers are. The Camry improved with the 3.5l.

    -juice
  • Re: Items (1) and (5) in your and my previous posts:

    (1) The delay is about 2-3 seconds from the moment the selector is locked into drive and released. It's just 1-2 seconds longer than would otherwise seem normal - but it is long enough that once or twice I've stepped on the gas before the transmission and engaged and then "thunked" into gear under throttle as the tranny finally went into gear. It's definitely longer than any other car I've ever owned, even the junky slushbox in the Venture I just got rid of.

    (5) The bin under the middle row is there, and the seat fits inside it with room to spare, there's just no lazy susan in the bin.

    Again, thanks for the help!

    -FS
  • Just traded in 2004 Odyssey with leather and DVD for a 2006 Toyota Sienna XLE with package #7.

    When I purchased the Odyssey my wife really wanted an 04 Sienna, but at the time it was the hottest thing going and they had none in stock with the features we wanted. I also did not want to pay MSRP.

    The local Toyota dealership was offering 0% APR and I paid under MSRP. I also got a decent price for my trade in.

    When I bought the Honda in 2004 I was happy with it because I liked the power and the better handling over the Sienna. However, since it was a 2004 we did not have the redesigned body and cabin, not to mention the new features that are available. (In my opinion the cabins and external appearances of the Toyota and Sienna are very similar).

    I prefer the Toyota now because now that I am approaching 40 I would rather hear a bump as opposed to feel it, I actually like drivng a vehicle that feels a little bigger, and has "overboosted" steering (feels more like luxury, and it only "feels" heavier). I also like the "cheesy wood" which wasn't available in the Odyssey at this price point.

    Plus, the Toyota only feels slightly less powerful probably becaue of it's lighter weight; and I am glad I saw the torque figures for the new engine in the 2007. It makes me realize I didn't give anything up by not waiting. I doubt they would have given me 0% for a 2007 Sienna (If I would have bought a 2007 in a few months with the rate my bank was given me I would have paid over $5,000.00 additional dollars for the van).

    I also read reviews that said the fit and finish on the new Honda's wasn't as good as the Toyota's.

    Last but not least, I own a 2005 XB, and I like the idea of being a complete Toyota family.
  • agnostoagnosto Posts: 205
    You made the right move, as I traded in a year ago a new 2005 Odyssey (it was a year full of issues and HONDA would not take care of me) for a new awesome loaded 2006 Sienna LTD and have 0 issues one year later with almost 11k miles. I also own a new 2007 TCH (Toyota Camry Hybrid) with 0 issues so far with a little over 2k miles... staying with TOYOTAs, as I never had any issues with them after owning different ones for over 15 years ;)
  • fred222fred222 Posts: 200
    I picked up the shifting habit by driving with GM engineers in Detroit who use the transmission for acceleration and braking. Makes driving fun and gives you that sports car feeling.
    We have a 2006 Odyssey EX-L. I like the way the shifter is set up. I like the location and I especially like the D3 button. If you want a little more "spirited" driving push the button. It also works great slowing you down on steep hills. In full auto I have found the Odyssey to be great to drive. It almost feels like it is turbo charged when getting onto a Freeway on-ramp. There are times when you want to get going fast in a real hurry and the Odyssey does not disappoint. The few times I have done this I have glimpsed the Tack somewhere over the 5K rpm mark as the van approaches 80 mph while still on the ramp. It is nice to be able to slow down to merge into fast moving traffic!
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    BUT, the Odyssey has an outdated shifter with only D-2-1 with a button to lock it into no higher than 3.
    The Sienna has a BETTER shifter with D-4-3-2-L where the driver can select it to shift no higher than any gear. :shades:
  • I just bought a 2007 Odyssey EX from Middletown Honda in NY. I agreed to purchase a 5 yr./100k mile HondaCares zero deductible warranty for the car so that we'd have some peace of mind, even though it IS a Honda.

    However, when the warranty info. arrived two-weeks later, it indicated that the warranty has a $100 deductible that I was never told about and never agreed to.

    Anybody else get shafted like this besides me, and, if so, how'd you fix it?

    -FS
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Simply return the warranty paperwork along with a copy of your paperwork documenting your claim of zero deductible purchase so that Honda can issue the proper warranty.
  • An "out dated" shifter??? Come on man! You pulling a 5th wheel or 20' camper with your Sienna???

    Maybe it's just me but let's get real here. I have owned a ton of different automobiles with the ability to shift from D-4-3-2-L and some without. Now I have an 06 Odyssey Touring. I have NEVER ONCE used the capability of manually shifting into any of the lower gears except for my extended cab pickup when towing and, if I did need it in a car or mini van...in the extreme case of snow, not having a "4" on the Odyssey won't make a hill of a beans difference. Maybe this is why Honda gives you D-3-2-1. You only really need the lower gear ratios under extreme conditions. Remember from Star Trek the famous words of Spock as he sentenced himself to death by radiation to save the ship and all on-board..."the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few" ;)

    Sounds like some are making a mountian out of a real-world non-issue although I'm sure now someone will post how critical it is to have a manually selectable 4 :confuse:

    Enjoy your Sienna Hans and have a very Happy New Year with your state of the art D-4-3-2-L shifter!

    I guess I'll just have to find a way to get by with my "out dated" one :shades:
  • sduff68sduff68 Posts: 52
    I don't really know if this applies to the 2005+ Honda Odyssey's but I used to hear my 2004 Honda Odyssey's transmission quite often. Usually when I would brake and accelerate at a light.

    I hardly even hear my 2006 Sienna shift gears...the term I have heard often is "Lexus like smooth."

    On the other hand the Sienna's engine is a little louder than the Honda's. However I like the sound...it sounds a little aggressive and makes me smile.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    BUT, WHY doesn't Honda give Odyssey drivers the D-4-3-2-1 selection? :confuse: GM has had D-3-2-1 for ages with their 4 speed AT while Honda clings to outdated D-2-1 (with a button to make D = 3). Odyssey drivers can be happy the Odyssey has a modern 5 speed AT even if they can't control the gear it is in.

    For ages, Buick had Dynaflow and Chevrolet Powerglide -and each with just one speed Drive with an additional L for slightly less anemic acceleration while Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Cadillac had a much better 4 speed Hydramatic. (Why did GM ever develop the worthless Dynaflow and Powerglide?)

    Aren't Honda engineers as smart as Toyota engineers? :shades:
  • You know Hans...sometimes people can be real idiots and you are starting to cross that line. This isn't about whether Toyota or Honda is a better vehicle or who has smarter engineers. They are both excellent vehicles (I know as I have owned both and I know that you know that) and it appears from many of your posts that you are just out looking for a fight or an argument so you can torment poeple. Grow up and have a productive conversation with folks.

    As I stated in my prior post, there is truly no need for a D-4-3-2-L unless you are towing. Are you towing with your Sienna??? Maybe you like the D-4-3-2-L because you want to pretend you are driving a sports car or maybe you like to pretend that you are driving a shift-tronic tranny :surprise: If you are you bought the wrong vehicle. Otherwise, any tranny that allows you to step into a L-2-3 gear ratios allows for better control of the vehicle in adverse weather conditions.

    How Buick and Chevy trannys entered a conversation about Toyota and Honda is beyond belief. Who cares on this forum why GM did what they did...it is irrelevant to this thread.

    Once I become the chief marketer or engineer for Honda, I'll let you know why their tranny selection is what it is. Until then, I will look forward to more intelligent posts from you in the coming year ;)
  • panmaxpanmax Posts: 24
    Quote,"
    As I stated in my prior post, there is truly no need for a D-4-3-2-L unless you are towing."
    This just is not true.

    Every gear is perfect for some road. I climb a hill every day. 4th gear would be perfect. 3rd gear makes too much noise. Drive only leads to shifting back and forth from 5th to 4th back and forth. I have a 5 speed Odyssey. I would like a D4 setting. Otherd have it. Too cheap to include it here?
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    If you need D4, panmax, just push the little button on the gear selector to turn off the fifth gear overdrive.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Only an idiot would defend an inferior design. :shades:
    Why is it difficult for anyone to understand why a discussion of GM transmissions got into the forum when the topic of the post was outdated transmission selectors (and outdated transmissions)?
  • I won't stup to your level by getting down right ignorant but I thought this threads overall topic of conversation was about Toyota and Honda...don't remember seeing GM anywhere in the discussion :confuse:

    This "idiot" loves his Odyssey and no defense is required on Honda's part. I would not trade my Odyssey in for a Sienna as I have done the exact opposite and sold my 05 Limited AWD for the Odyssey Touring and I am very happy with my decision to do so and would do it all over again :D
  • panmaxpanmax Posts: 24
    Quote,"push the little button on the gear selector to turn off the fifth gear overdrive." End Quote

    Button does not exist on the 2002 Odyssey. On the 2007 Odyssey the button shifts you to D3 according to the owners manual page 324. Still no way to choose D4 on the 2007.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    My bad - you are correct. Even Honda refers to that shifter button as "D3" which (per my '05 owner's manual) is for "...pulling a trailer in hilly terrain, or to provide engine braking when going down a steep hill." It can also "...keep the transmission from cycling between third and fourth gears in stop-and-go driving."

    The '07 Odyssey has a 4.312 final drive ratio with each drive range geared as follows:

    1st - 2.697
    2nd - 1.606
    3rd - 1.071
    4th - 0.766
    5th - 0.538
  • Okay we test drove an 2007 Odyssey and a 2007 Sienna a few days ago. We are trying to negotiate a fair price for a fully loaded vehicle and our choices are the Sienna Limited or the Honda Odyssey EXL with rear dvd and nav. The Sienna that we test drove did not have a nav system (did have the dvd) and the dealers price was 38K - dealer was unwilling to negotitate and even tried to substitute a 2006 Sienna Limited with all of the features that we wanted but the kicker is the price was 1k more than the 2007 Limited that we test drove (29K). We literally walked out laughing.
    On the flipside we test drove the Honda and while the salesman wasn't as knowledgable about the vehicle as he should have been we believe we were quoted fair prices of 31k for an exl or 33k for the odyssey exl with rear dvd AND navigation.

    Are we just being unreasonable or is the Sienna really overpriced??? We are strongly leaning towards the Odyssey even though I enjoyed driving the Sienna more. I just can't get over the 6K difference that we would be paying for a Sienna that doesn't even have a nav system.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    The street prices of these vehicles can vary quite a bit depending on location although healthy discounts are the general rule. As a result, a discrepancy such as you saw can happen. '07 Siennas should command more (at least for a short while) due to improvements. It is somewhat difficult to directly compare the two based on MSRP because of Toyota's option packages.

    The quoted Honda prices are not, in fact, all that good.

    IMHO, the vehicles (with similar equipment) are quite comparable and the prices should be about the same.
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