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Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna

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  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    "The resident Honda guru in that thread had the audacity to call the Subaru bumpers "Cheap", trying to spin the bad result in to an actual advantage!"

    Ah, the good old days. That was a classic. :-)
  • I was offered $500-$1,000 below invoice + TTL on a new 2009 Odyssey EX-L; solid deal? I wanted to get the $1,250 factory to dealer rebate but unsure if they'd go lower. I might be able to do better with another dealer in the $30K range and then factor in the rebate and a possible trade-in?

    Still want to drive a Sienna and Sedona again. I like the looks of the Sienna better but the price and package of the Sedona is tough to pass up. $2,000 cash back makes it harder and I just heard from a local dealer they are selling at just above invoice.

    So what do all you experts think? Honda is superior so pay more now to last longer (I take care of my cars and expect them to last; current car is 14 years old)? Save thousands and get the Kia now? Or even wait for hopefully better rebates from all manufacturers and try again during December when salesman are more desperate?
  • You wait much past this month and your options for 2009 models will be severely limited. Make a deal soon if you want an 09.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    $1000 below invoice would be fair IMHO. That would be like them getting $250 over their invoice, plus they keep the holdback. That's a fair margin for a dealership. They have to pay the bills and feed their kids, too.

    Check in the Ody Prices Paid thread, though, to see what others are getting.

    I test drove a Sedona when I was shopping. I found the base models cost as little as $19k, and at that price level, they owe no apologies.

    As you step up into the mid-to-high $20s, though, some materials start to feel a bit sub-par compared to Honda and Toyota. So oddly enough I sort of felt like the cheaper models were a better value.

    Also, the Kia's price goes up because options are a-la-carte. For example, the EX is the top model but it's not very well equipped. The EX only comes with a single CD player, no steering wheel audio controls, zero power sliding doors, and no power liftgate. All those things are options packages.

    So a Sedona EX is missing some equipment that a Sienna LE comes with standard (6 CD), never mind the XLE (power sliders, power liftgate). The Ody EX is also much better equipped (6CD, power sliders).

    So Kia goes a-la-carte, if you will. Make sure you're pricing an EX with the power package and the luxury package and the entertainment package. Believe it or not you have to buy all 3 just to get a 6CD changer, and that's $5100 in options. You do get a DVD player as a bonus, but I don't think they offer Navi.

    Price it with those desirable options and the value erodes a bit, to me at least.

    Please note I'm using a buyer's guide from 2008 so the pricing and packages may have changed slightly, but I doubt it.

    In the Problems threads you'll see the Ody has pretty much sorted out the Transmission woes after 2004, the Sienna had sludge issues two generations of engines ago (2003 and prior), but Kia still has issues with suspension vibrations and premature tire wear.

    I'll say it again, though, if you buy a base model LX for under $20 grand, that's a screaming bargain, and a lot of van for the money.

    Pay more and get the Ody you want, you'll be happier in the long run.
  • Thanks for the info. I was including the options on the Sedona EX but I only see the luxury and ent. package. Where is the power package on Edmunds? With your prices it must be about $2K but the only other major option I see is the NAV option which I don't want anyway.

    With the relatively slim difference in price between an Odyssey EX-L and a Sedona EX with the options you listed, sounds like the Honda would be the better long term value, right?

    Is it true that shopping at the end of the year (from mid-Dec. on) is better in terms of less customers and better ability to get price breaks from salesmen needing to hit end of month and end of year quotas?

    And even though I'm dealing online with the dealers' internet staff, when I've gone into the dealers they still pass me to a salesman. So what's the point of doing all the advance legwork (other then they know that we know what's going on) if I'm still gonna get treated as if I walked in off the street?

    If I want to do a trade-in there to save time, should I wait until a firm price has been set for the new car? What if they balk at that point? I can't sign something first if it says no trade-in and then do a trade in, but can't they change their mind on price after I mention a trade?

    When do I mention the holdback (I don't want it but I want them to know that I'm aware of it) and the current $1,250 factory rebate?

    Finally, what's the deal with the KBB numbers they pull up to justify their trade in rate? Is that what dealers are suggesting to pay and not what dealers are actually paying?
  • As a follow up tp my previous post, the dealer is now asking if I would buy the car for $500 back of invoice? I am unfamiliar with this expression. Is it the same as $500 below invoice or is it something else like after taxes?

    And can I still negotiate on the $1,250 factory to dealer incentive after we have agreed on a price or does the price we agree on include all rebates, incentives, etc.?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I was using a guide for 2008 models, so maybe they shuffled the packages or made the power package standard on the EX (which I think should be).

    Just make sure your van has power doors. I find them extremely useful, especially when the kids fall asleep and I have to carry them to bed. I would even suggest a power hatch, which I did not get. :(

    That means Sienna XLE or Ody Touring, per the 2008 guide. Again the options may have been shuffled around a bit, so check in the brochures or on Edmunds.

    sounds like the Honda would be the better long term value, right?

    IMHO, yes.

    Not sure about the end-of-the-month or end-of-year pricing. I believe Honda comes out with the 2010s fairly late in the year, so it may not be worth waiting.

    even though I'm dealing online with the dealers' internet staff, when I've gone into the dealers they still pass me to a salesman

    I suggest you ask for an out-the-door price, with taxes, fees, and everything, in the e-quote. Tell them you want the exact amount. I did that and the price matched down the to penny. :shades:

    If I want to do a trade-in there to save time, should I wait until a firm price has been set for the new car?

    Yes, definitely. I'd even go one step further and get a trade-in quote from CarMax on your other car, ask them to at least match that.

    The holdback/rebate should be incorporated in their e-price. Ask them to go ahead and do that.

    Dealers don't use the KBB values. They actually tend to use the NADA black book, and recent auction prices (just in case they can't re-sell it off their lot). KBB numbers are artificially high. Get a CarMax appraisal because that is a real-world number that they put real money behind.

    You can go to the Real-World Trade-in Values thread here on Edmunds - ask "volvomax" to appraise your trade. They will only offer wholesale value on it so expect a low-ball offer. You'll get a little more from CarMax, a lot more selling it yourself.

    What are you trading?

    Good luck with the shopping.
  • Hello again and thanks to everyone for all of your sound advice. I am still negotiating with dealers on the purchase of a 2009 Odyssey EX-L and am at about $29K + TTL. Some have run out but others have them and I figure with the 2010s arriving now is a decent time to buy. Was worried since the rebates ended yesterday but it looks like Honda continued the $1,250 incentive and also added a 2.9% finance option. I thought about getting the EX-L with the DVD but the price is a lot higher and from what I see in stores an aftermarket system can be bought for much less. My concern is the warranty would be less, the chance they might mess up the electronics with the wiring and that it would not look as good. But there are more options that way rather than the 1 DVD fits all factory choice. Any opinions?

    I am trading in my 1995 Ford Explorer XLT. It has 150,000 miles and in good condition. The last dealer ran the numbers on KBB and said they could offer $2,000 or so which is better than I thought. The other sites appraised it at $800. I know I'd get less at a dealer but that may be my only option. Any idea why the dealer would access KBB to give me a quote if KBB is not what dealers rely upon?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Ask if you can get both the incentive and the low rate. Some times you get one or the other, not both.

    OE DVD players are overpriced IMHO. Think about it - you get a fairly small screen for a very large price and they're not even HD or BluRay. They are a huge cash cow for manufacturers.

    I went aftermarket - got a 12" screen installed for $900, and it came with 2 wireless headsets. Smaller screens were in the $600 range.

    As for the warranty, you could buy a brand new one 3 times over and still spend the same amount, so I would not worry too much about that.

    The Sienna is pre-wired for power even if you do not get the factory DVD. I talked to the installer and he said it was easy, at least on models without a moonroof.

    The dealer offered you more than your Explorer was worth to seal the deal, I'd jump at the offer.

    Too bad you missed CARS, that could have been a $4500 clunker trade, I believe.

    I'd say go look at a Sienna XLE, for about the same $29k price you'd get a free power lift gate, but I doubt the Toyota dealer will match the $2000 trade offer on your Explorer, so go with the good deal on that Ody.

    Good luck and keep us posted.
  • Hi all,
    Just want to warn my 2005 Sienna XLE has 70,000 miles and I am looking at a slew of repairs right now. Just paid $800 to "replace locking assembly" in passenger sliding door and they informed me that a "Transfer Case Seal" has failed and quoted me a $2000 charge to fix that. Took the door but not the transfer seal, will seek other opinions for that, but after searching this forum seeing that problem is common. Based on this, and if you drive your cars over 40,000 miles stay away from Sienna or buy the best extended warranty you can. Previously owned 2 high mileage Volvo wagons with none of these headaches and now wish I had bought Odyssey.
  • Many thanks, I tried to get in on Cash for Clunkers for the $4,500 but the dealer wouldn't budge off MSRP for the Odyssey so I passed. I tried explaining the C4C promo was a federal rebate and they were getting more than they should but they wouldn't listen so I walked. I figured I could get more now with the discount off MSRP plus the incentive plus the trade-in.

    Is $29K (plus dest., taxes, DMV, etc.) for a 2009 Odyssey EX-L decent? Or is $30K for the 2009 Odyssey EX-L with DVD better? Sounds as if I should bypass the DVD model and do it on my own but it might be easier to get the DVD model at $30K than the non-DVD model at $29K.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Extended warranties are cheap. I got a 7/100 quote for around $780 a while back, though I'm still waiting to decide if I'll get it (no problems, knock on wood).

    There was a TSB on the 04-06 doors, see if that applies to yours, if so maybe they'll cover it.

    Yours must be AWD? Can't really compare that to an Ody because no AWD is offered. A Pilot, perhaps.

    Good luck with the Ody.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'd ask the folks in the Ody - Prices Paid threads.

    They ought to be helpful.

    Good luck.
  • Okay guys need your opinions. I was about to buy Odyssey EXL 2009 in June, but due to other personal priorities I was unable to purchase at that time. Then due to C4C and lower incentive, I was not interested to purchase the vehicle at much higher price. Now 2009 models are gone from my area.

    So I have two choices,
    a) Buy a 2010 EXL at invoice price, which is almost $4000 more than 2009 price, hence still hard to digest for me. I do not want to go to the debate of depreciation difference between 2009 & 2010, as I want to keep my van for longer duration, so year model does not matter much.

    b) Buy a 2010 Sienna XLE, which is also close to invoice price, this is very close to max discount I can get for Sienna anytime, as Sienna never discounted like Odyssey.

    I need to buy a van now and can’t wait any longer. What’s the right van considering current prices if I plan to keep the van for long term?

    Also is it really worthy to buy Sienna XLE over LE? Some of the XLE features I really like, but seems most of them are “nice to have”. Suggestions Pls.
  • I see people discussing rebates on Hondas but Edmund just shows manufacturer's incentives with no detail.

    I am currently talking to a dealer about an 09 Odyssey and he claims they have $2000 available in rebates.

    TIA.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I dunno, you seem to be shopping for the best deal and timing with each individual car.

    In that regard, the Sienna wins.

    But ... that's not how you should think. You can't change the past, so just shop for the current options, and pick the better current value today.

    What are your prices on the EX-L and XLE?

    The XLE has a power lift gate, which is nice, plus a trip computer. The XLE also comes with front and rear obstacle detection and memory for the driver's seat and mirrors, automatic climate control for the rear. A lot of that stuff only comes on the Ody Touring.

    The Ody has the sunroof and the 7+1 seating, which the Sienna lacks (8 passenger models only come in CE and LE).

    You can add EVP2 to the Toyota to get a moonroof and then you get some bonus sunshades.

    You decide which features matter more to you. The seating was a biggie for me, so I got a Sienna LE 8 passenger, because XLE only seats 7. If that's enough, it does have a lot more content. I felt the cloth was nice, but I did give up the power lift gate, and I do wish I had one.

    If you need 8 seats, go for the Ody. You can't combine leather and 8 seats in the Sienna.

    Good luck, let us know what prices you're quoted.
  • madams1madams1 Posts: 101
    Just want to add that one of the important features of my wife's next van is the power sliding doors. As far as I know the Sienna LE does not have these. You have to upgrade to the XLE to get the power sliding doors. The Odyssey EX comes with the power sliding doors, but no power liftgate. Have to upgrade to EXL to get that. When we do get a van and if we get the Honda, my wife wants the EX with RES. This is a new option with the EX.

    Good luck with your purchase.
  • Thanks for that link, feel a bit better now. Just got second opinion on my Sienna and regular mechanic says to keep driving it, he thinks leak is very early or nonexistent could get another 10,000miles maybe before costly repair. May just trade it in for a non-van option since oldest kid is now 17 and driving on her own plus it rarely snows in Jersey now so who needs AWD. Thanks again.
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