Toyota Yaris

chrisducati

That is the mind set that has gotten America into huge SUV's and biggy sized fries. people are paying 20 grand for Mini coppers and Scion's loaded up with every thing they can get their hands on. I think Toyota should at least make those things available.

chrisducati

If I could get a five door Yaris with a tach I would probably disagree with you on the Fit. But your right. The Fit does seem to have more going for it with the exception of looks. I'm just hooked on the Yaris Hatchback styling.
I e-mailed Toyota on the tach issue. Of course I heard nothing.

double

You sure on the tach not included on the centre speedo cluster. Bet it will be standard

moparbad

No tach on the hatch, there is a tach on the sedan.

nippononly

on the sedan, you have to get the power package to get the tach if you buy an automatic.

The IP on the Yaris hatch is basically the same one currently in use in the Echo.

What I don't get is both the xA and xB have a tach, with the same powertrain and similar price. Do tachs cost THAT much to put in?

smarturn

Here is a link of the base Yaris in Canada:
Base Yaris Test Drive

It sure gets the tach for standard. So disappointed. It just not a fun hatchback indeed without a tach.

hungarian83

"Do tachs cost THAT much to put in?"

I can't imagine that they do. Even the cheapest base Fit or Jazz has a tachometer. The Fit 1,3i Y in Japan and the 1,2i S in Europe both have tachometers standard and they are about the same price as a base US-market Yaris. I think Toyota is just pulling a "if you don't pay a lot, you won't get a lot".
What's interesting is that the European market Yaris 5-door I have seen (pictures) had a digital tachometer.

jmiller1984

I honestly can't appreciate all the hype about the Yaris. Yes, I know it comes in sedan and 3-door hatch models, but the car is basically a re-worked xA. That's not a bad thing at all, since the xA is a great little car (I own one). But, Toyota MUST charge more for the Yaris in order to justify its existence as a Toyota model and separate it from its Scion cousin. When I compare features, the xA wins as a better value while maintaining Toyota quality. If you have to have the sedan, buy the Yaris. If not, do yourself a favor and buy the xA. If neither of those work, have a Fit. You can't lose... they're all great cars, if not really great values.

kdhspyder

The Yaris is intended to be below the xA in order to fight the potential Korean threat. It could be sold as low as $9990. In the Scion world noone could discount an xA or xB to fight competition. This also allows 'Yota to have a $10K vehicle, $11K vehicle, $12K vehicle, $13K etc, etc.

All the new car buyers are served in that there is a Toyota in their price range.

719b

a $9,990 price tag is very attractive for a toyota. the problem is i defy anyone to find one at that price. by the time you option it with a few items that aren't considered a luxury, you'll spend a lot more than you expected.
if you go for some of the bells and whistles along with the necessities, you will experience sticker shock.

nippononly

price tag will be $11K, Toyota has already announced that. I think Mr. Spyder meant that one might be sold at $9990 after discounting/negotiation.

Unlike the old Echo, that $9990 car will at least have P/S and A/C. Still no CD (or cassette) though.

kdhspyder

Yep.. the price on the Yaris' can be discussed whereas the Scions cannot. They needed some flexibility at the bottom.

beantown

Why do people have a hard time believing dealers will carry Yaris models with prices below $10K. Every week in the Boston area, local dealers advertise brand new automatic Corollas for less than $11K. It only makes sense that they'll have similar ads for the Yaris (maybe not in the first few months, but definitely by the end of the year). They may not have many options, but I'll bet you could at least get an automatic at that price.

nippononly

There may be less room for dealer negotiation with a Yaris than there is with a Corolla, because the Yaris is lower-priced to begin with.

Some of the low-end Hyundai and Kia models have less than a $1000 gap between MSRP and invoice.

double

If it is any thing like the ads here the state the MSRP in the ad. Canada is 13550 without air cond. but with tach and single cd and 5 speed. (3 dr) Not much in basic package. Then start adding!

kdhspyder

Great point.. What this does also is take the price pressure off the Corolla's. In SE VA we dont' have the alley-fights now that were going on for the last 5 yrs but yes during those years the Corolla was being eaten alive from the bottom up. Now the Yaris is the budget-fighter vehicle and the Corolla can remain solid, and profitable ?, above the Scion line.

bottgers

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Who in their right mind is going to pay $12K-$15K for a Yaris when they can STEP UP to a Corolla for less $$$?

bottgers

Who is noone?

hungarian83

People who want a small car. Believe it or not, there are people even in the United States who don't mind paying the same (or even more) for a smaller car. Bigger doesn't always mean better.

My previous car was an Accord. My current car is a Corolla and as soon as it comes out I will be purchasing a Fit. I'm actually "stepping down" in terms of size and I'm very happy about it. I see absolutely no reason to get a car that is bigger than what I need.

If the Yaris 5-door was going to be available in the US, I would have considered it. However, there is no way I would look at a Corolla. I just don't see the point.

bottgers

If that were true, the Echo would've outsold the Corolla.

hungarian83

Not at all. I didn't say that more people in the US want an Echo than a Corolla. I said there are people who want small cars and are willing to pay just the same or even more for a small car than a larger car.

I said "there are people", not "all people".

kdhspyder

I think what you will see now is that there won't be the Corolla alley-fight type pricing. I'm going to guess that the days of $11990 corollas are done. Let the Yaris take that place.

kdhspyder

There is little or no markup in Scion so discounting them makes no sense. Most dealerships are limited in the number offered to them so it makes even less sense. Then there is the Scion police..

nippononly

if Toyota is smart (and when has Toyota ever not been smart? Once per 10 years?) they will decrease production on the lower-end, no-option Corollas, to reduce price crossover.

I HOPE the corollary to this is also put into practice: that they build lots of lower-end Yaris's initially, with not too many loaded-up models that have a similar sticker price to a Corolla CE. I want this model to make it! The Echo died mostly because every single one they built was $14-15K, and up through early 2002 that sticker bought a WHOLE LOT of Corolla.

kdhspyder

That is a very subtle and smart idea. If a buyer comes on a lot and sees 10 Yaris' @ 12K and 2 CE Corollas @15K and 12 LE's @ $17K.

bottgers

And I'm saying there aren't enough of those people to make what you're saying feesable.

chrisducati

I think Toyota will not only have a problem with the Korean's but in a few years the chinese will be here. History will repeat itself all over again. They are talking $6999 for a car like the Yaris. Of course it will take a few years to see if they are going to be as quick to build good cars as the other Asians but I'm guessing they will be. Look at your electronics and other items in your house. 80% of everything like that in our house is made in China! I would say pricing is going to have to come down on every ones products to compete with them.

Everyone knows the Yaris is going to be a good car. It comes down to styling and packaging at this point. I also like the Rio5,the Scion X cars and the Daewoo Aveo. So far the Yaris hatch is in the lead for my next car. It all depends on a few minor items. Like a tach.

hungarian83

Really?
What happened with Scion? It appears that there are enough people to buy these cars. Have you seen the popularity of Honda's new entry-level on the Fit forum? Believe me, these cars will succeed.

Toyota and Honda aren't stupid. They know when they shouldn't enter a market with a certain kind of car. The Fit has been around (in current generation) since 2001, but only now in 2006 will it be introduced to the US. These two companies know when to do something, and if it wasn't feasible, they wouldn't be bothering.

kdhspyder

And I'm saying there aren't enough of those people to make what you're saying feesable.

Are you speaking about small cars specifically or small and/or inexpensive cars.

The difference is that while there may be a limited market for 'small' cars in the US there is a huge market for 'inexpensive' cars. Used cars sales dwarf new car sales and the main buying consideration is price. Most used car buyer want an $8-12K vehicle in good shape. Give'em a new one in perfect shape.

Toyota, Honda, et. al. do not share in this huge market in any way except possibly in financing. They can't make an $11K midsized vehicle so they have to make a subcompact vehicle to take part in this huge market.

Just for arguments sake lets say there are 2 million used cars purchased in this price range. The new vehicle manufacturers get $0 from these sales presently. If Toyota for example can put a proven vehicle into the mix to the tune of 100000 units a year at say a $500 net profit per unit that's $50 Million extra profit where before there was none.

bottgers

Specifically I'm saying that in the U.S. there aren't enough people who will be willing to buy a Yaris at or above the price of a Corolla to make the Yaris a sales success. It simply will have to be priced lower than the Corolla.

bottgers

Are there smaller Scion models selling at higher prices than the larger models, and I hope you're not going to try to tell me the Fit has enough of a market to sell at higher prices than the Civic sells for.

kdhspyder

Agreed. I dont think we'll see the fire-sales Corollas anymore tho.

bottgers

....Toyota will keep the price of the Corolla high so the price of the Yaris won't surpass it, even if it means Corolla sales will suffer?

hungarian83

"I hope you're not going to try to tell me the Fit has enough of a market to sell at higher prices than the Civic sells for."

No, I'm not. You are missing the point. I keep telling you that there is a market for these cars. That's all I'm saying.
You keep turning my comment around and making it sound like I'm saying they are going to sell a huge amount of Fits and Yarii (more than Civic/Corolla or at a higher price than Civic/Corolla). Of course, Fit won't sell more units than Civic, and the MSRP won't be that high. How many Civics were sold in 2005? Well over 200 000. How many Fits is Honda predicting will be sold in 2006? About 33 000 AND at a lower price.

bottgers

....most people aren't going to be willing to pay as much or more for these new small models as they would for the next model size up. I never said there wasn't a market for them. There is definitely a market for cars like the Fit and Yaris, but priced below the Civic and Corolla, not the other way around.

backy

An interesting (well, I think so anyway) sideline to this thread is that this same phenomenon is happening right now at Hyundai. A fully-loaded Elantra GLS sedan, including moonroof and ABS with traction control, would actually cost me hundreds less than a fully-loaded Accent GLS, with side curtains and alloys but no moonroof, cruise, or traction control, figuring invoice price with all applicable rebates. So I wonder if this will be a problem for Hyundai, too, especially when Yarii and Fits start rolling into dealerships.

I agree with kdhspyder that the days of fire-sale Corollas are over when the Yaris rolls out. I really don't see anyone paying more for a Yaris, which gets worse fuel economy than the roomier and higher-zoot Corolla. The only case I could see is with the Yaris 5-door in top trim--which of course will not exist in the near future in the U.S.

bottgers

...no one addressed it. Why do you think Toyota was fire-sale pricing the Corollas? Do you think they would've done so if they didn't have to? I don't think Toyota will keep the price of the Corolla artificially high just so they can price the Yaris higher than it should be. Why kill sales of both vehicles when they can simply price them both correctly and achieve their sales goal?

kdhspyder

Most of the 'fire-sale' pricing was done 12-18 mos ago when the CE Corolla was the least expensive Toyota. It had to fight for all the bargain basement business. the Corolla CE had to 'stretch' from $10K to $16K. I'm certain it hurt profitability on the model line.

Now there are the Scions and now the Yaris so the pressure is off the Corollas. As you know there is no price pressure on the Scions making the $12-$15K rannge 'secure' let's say. Under $12k let the Yaris' fight it out with whichever vehicle wants to take on Toyota.

beantown

The Corolla fire-sale is still going strong in Mass. I wonder how much Toyota is losing on these sub $11K Corollas that I see on the bigger dealership lots every week. It amazes me that, 10 years later, I can still buy a new Corolla for less than I paid for a one year old stripped, base model 1997 Corolla back in early 1998. And these new models offer so much more car than they did back in 1997. So much for inflation.

nippononly

is established, it won't be long until the Corolla redo, and you can bet Corolla is going to climb in price at that time. Not just to allow some breathing room for loaded Yarii, but also to match the new Civic (which also jumped up in price on the trims people actually buy, DX excluded) in content and quality.

In fact, if Toyota can stay the course on the Scion line as well as the Yaris, it will have lots of good choices available in the $15K-and-under bracket.

The Fit and the Koreans will make the going difficult though.

poorjudd

Toyota is not losing money. A stripped Manual CE has an invoice price of about $12,954k. There is also a 3% holdback on the car, which adds up to $388. That brings it down to $12,566.

Not to mention the usual tactic of only a limited number of vehicles like that on the lot. Usually 4 or 5 at the absolute most.

So say they sell 5 of these strippers a month at 10k even. That is a $2,566 loss for the dealership per car, or $12,830.

If the Toyota dealer stinks it will still sell 50 new cars a month. They will average at least $1,000 earned on those 50 cars, including the strippers. So the dealership comes out well.

And this does not include bonuses the dealership gets for selling a certain amount of vehicles, and other incentives.

kdhspyder

The Corolla fire-sale is still going strong in Mass. I wonder how much Toyota is losing on these sub $11K Corollas that I see on the bigger dealership lots every week

As alluded by the poster above, Toyota actually doesnt lose any money on $11K loss-leader Corolla's. When the vehicle is shipped from the plant they get paid and their profit is locked up. It's only in difficult times, like GM/Ford last year, when the manufacturer has to put out incentives to move the vehicles off the lot that impacts Toyota's bottom line. Otherwise it's all on the dealership.

The Yaris should allow the Corolla to be insulated from these fire-sales in the future. Also could an ultra-affordable, fuel efficient vehicle be hitting the market at a better time. Along with the FIT and others they may sell like mad if fuel keeps going above $2.50/gal.

poorjudd

No kidding. Ouch, I had to fill up today and the prices are insane.

gwsch

Does anyone have a definite date for the first deliveries of the Yaris hatchbacks? My 1985 Tercel is getting long in the tooth.

reddroverr

Here in portland oregon, they sure aren't discounting Corollas. I doubt you can get a used 2005 for 12k.

Any word on when we will get one of these small cars with a diesel over here? get some real mileage.

The Yaris looks pretty good. The Honda fit looks muttly.

poorjudd

The chances of diesel cars coming to america are almost none. They will have a very hard time passing inspection.

Already they cannot be bought in CA, New England or NY.

Pretty soon they won't pass emissions in any state.

hungarian83

A little off topic, but...

Actually, diesel cars can be very clean. Much cleaner than they are in the US, or than they were 10-20 years ago. Many Americans have this idea that diesels MUST be dirty, stinky, and loud. If you have been to Europe at all, you would have noticed that newer diesels do not have the smoke and smell, and they can be quiet, with a pleasant rumble, not the loud clanging found on US pickup trucks.

"Pretty soon they won't pass emissions in any state."
Actually, it's the exact opposite. Pretty soon diesels will be available in all 50 states thanks to the introduction of low-sulphur diesel fuel. The MUCH lower amount of sulphur allows filters to be put on the cars that eliminate the particles and smoke. With that removed, diesel is great. Better fuel economy, lower CO (greenhouse gas) emissions, higher torque, longer lasting engines, and now cleaner and quieter. Only problem is that the price of diesel has been exceeding premium gasoline recently.

The emissions ratings in Europe are just as stringent as in the US, but the rate of diesel cars is as high as 40% in some countries. In the next few years, look for more and more diesels on American roads.

Now, back to topic about the Yaris...
I heard that the US-market versions will be made in France. Is this true?

Kirstie_H

A reporter is looking to speak with a Southern California resident who is interested in the Fit, Versa and/or Yaris. Please send an e-mail to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Monday, January 30, 2006 containing your city of residence, your daytime contact information and your opinion of these vehicles.

double

Well that will kill the Yaris , being built in France and selling in the US. No great love lost there! The present ones here in Canada are out of Japan and I would think that their quality will be much higher. If you look at the sites for the European Yaris of old there is a lot of digruntled customers as to their build quality and finish.

fdanna

If the emission laws were just as stringent in Europe we'd have no problem bringing the diesels here. But the fact is, even with low sulphur diesel, none of the cars in Europe would meet CA/NY/New England emissions... NONE.

Diesel particulates are much higher than gasoline (as well as the smog forming emissions). Apparently you've not sat in an Italian traffic-jam recently. You need to bring oxygen tanks to breathe.

Only Daimler-Chrysler with their not-yet-released diesel technology, Blutech, claims they'll pass all 50 state emissions when low sulphur fuel is here. VW is trying, but hasn't announced anything.

Don't expect to see diesel in an affordable car anytime soon [in the US].