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Toyota Yaris

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  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Exactly, and since you reference Saturn, isn't it funny how that has been one of GM's most successful ventures over the last 15 years?

    Funny how no discount at all off of MSRP can generate so many happy customers... Almost makes you think that if they were of a quality closer to Toyota/Honda they'd have a real winner on their hands :)

    The Yaris is essentialy a Scion. One of the MANY reasons I had no issue paying MSRP.

    Just as an update to the topic, we have been discounting them a tad ($100-$200) if we HAVE to, just to make a deal. I guess for all you folks that "never have and never will" pay MSRP that works right? Since you "know" we have to make a profit??? (insert sarcasm here :P )

    T
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    No offense, man, but the attitude you have demonstrated is EXACTLY why I deal only with internet/fleet nowadays. And exactly why almost everyone hates car salespeople. And why Saturn has the rep for the best customer service in the industry except for Lexus.

    I know they train you that way (you are in sales right? I do remember you said you work for a Toyota dealership). I realize that is "the system". Back when I still took it personally, I used to dealership-hop, taking a half hour or more of a salesman's time, just so I could turn them down and walk away. But that was my misspent youth....now I just sigh over the lack of service in the car sales biz, and buy my cars by e-mail.

    There isn't a car sold that you can't get at least 5% off sticker on, and there isn't a one that you can't get an exact quote on at that price over the internet, without ever leaving the comfort of your home.

    And that includes the Yaris - I confirmed that recently with e-mails to a nearby dealership that has loud ads on Yaris specials, which responded by offering me Yaris l/b manuals with convenience package (choice of two colors in stock) at $11,759 and 'S' sedan manuals with power package with alloys, fog lamps, and spoiler for $14,975.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • your sarcasm which comes through does make it hard to try and have a conversation with you. You remind me of my neighbor - she's an attorney and also thinks she is right all the time.

    Some of the very best salespeople I have EVER known, knew literally NOTHING about the product. The best one (he sold 30+ a month off of almost pure "fresh" traffic), couldn't even tell you how much horsepower something had.

    The best salesman that I have know was the Ford guy in a previous post. He knew his product inside and out, didn't pressure you and was so good at what he did that he didn't take walk ups at the dealership for over 5 years. All of his business was referrals from satisfied customers. (now that is a true salesman!) It seems your sales friend was most interested in just closing the deal instead of making sure the product fit the customers needs. If it was any other way them he would have know his product a little better.

    What made him a great salesperson was that he was a likable guy, could get to know you quickly, and could pressure the HECK out of you to do it right then without you even realizing it.

    Do you now understand why most car salespeople are disliked by the general public??? they eventually figure out after the fact that they were pressured into buying something they didn't need, really couldn't afford or isn't a good fit for them but by that time it's too late.

    If you don't "hard-sell", the customer just ends up buying from someone else.

    That a mighty broad brush you painting that statement with. That is not always the case and you know it. If you treat a knowledgeable buyer with respect and don't play games, you have an excellent chance of winning his business.

    Funny how no discount at all off of MSRP can generate so many happy customers...

    The only buyers who are happy paying MSRP are the ones who are so feed up with pushy salespeople that they will avoid confrontation at any cost. They fool themselves into thinking they got a good deal just because they didn't have to put up with the typical salesperson BS! Deep down they know they overpaid but rationalize it against the (shudder) thought of having to negotiate a lower price.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Now hold on just a second before you make assumptions. This IS my profession. I wouldn't claim you were a know-it-all if you happened to be versed in yours...

    "If you don't "hard-sell", the customer just ends up buying from someone else"

    OF COURSE there are always exceptions. But they are definitely in the minority.

    It may be a broad brush, but it's the absolute truth. If you don't believe me, walk a mile in the shoes of a salesman. If a customer leaves, chances are you'll never see them again. No matter how you treat them. It's something every salesperson learns very early on.

    "typical salesperson BS"

    What is that exactly? Did I mention lying cheating or stealing so much as once? No, so what is it then? Pressure? Being asked to buy?

    "The only buyers who are happy paying MSRP are the ones who are so feed up with pushy salespeople that they will avoid confrontation at any cost."

    You're kidding me right? Talk about broad strokes!?!? Saturn does it, Scion does it, MOST highline manufacturers do it (go offer a Mercedes store invoice on a car...). And yet, no one has to "rationalize" paying a fair profit.

    Go figure...

    T
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    No offense taken. I am in internet/fleet, just FYI :P (it's why I spend so much time here on Edmumds between customers). I have been off of the "floor" for quite some time now, have a very loyal customer base of my own, but still have many friends that are on the "floor" and realize that more often than not, that's where most customers end up.

    Your example of what you did as a misspent youth is EXACTLY why they still train us that way, you realize that right? You aren't an isolated case of someone who wasted an awful lot of a fully commissioned salesman's time. I don't blame you one bit either (and at least you didn't succumb to the overwhelming pressure you endured :P j/k), but you have to realize it's a two way street.

    "There isn't a car sold that you can't get at least 5% off sticker on"

    There are a LOT of cars sold that you can't get 5% off on. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a know-it-all ;)

    And out of curiosity, how much do they discount Saturn and Lexus these days? And yet they're still the happiest... go figure...

    As for the Yaris, if there's someone out there selling them at invoice that doesn't shock me at all. It's routine for us when we have stock to not miss a deal. As long as we aren't losing money (and sometimes we even do that), it's pretty much fair game. As I said before, typically it's no more than a $200 or so discount though.

    To try and stay on topic, I'll add that I just got a "buy bid" from my appraiser of 11000. Considering I paid 12485, I think anyone paying between invoice and sticker is still doing just fine.

    MSRP isn't too much to pay. I didn't pay it to just avoid dealing with salesman "BS" either lol... I saw the car I wanted, saw enough value in it, and paid it.

    Strangely I don't feel screwed at all...

    T
  • statstat Posts: 19
    Well, NOW HEAR THIS:

    I just paid INVOICE for a BRAND NEW 4 door sedan --automatic Yaris in the SE states. My out the door price with tax, tag, title, etc. was $13,700 and I did NOT pay the dealer any doc fees or for the Yaris Mats -- which I got for free. The yaris had 4 miles on it. (FYI -- the sticker price on my car was $13,497 plus tax, tag, title and doc fees. The MSRP price with doc fees, tax, tag and title was $14,868 -- so I saved OVER $1100 on this car).

    I don't know what some of ya'll are smoking in this thread, but MSRP for an entry level car is just plain nonsense. If you don't ask and you don't HAGGLE -- then you don't deserve a discount. It's just that simple.

    I made offers to numerous dealers and only 2 dealers in the entire SE came up to bat to offer me a car for INVOICE price (as in TRUE invoice) on this car. The rest played the MSRP game and I simply turned them down. I ticked off a lot of dealers who simply refused to come off sticker and simply stood by their mantra "we never discount these cars -- ever".

    SO, live and learn: When the money is in your hands, YOU are in control. No one else.
  • statstat Posts: 19
    When someone says to us "I know you have to make a profit", you can only guess what goes through our minds.

    Tell me, what's fair on a new car with high demand?

    As CLOSE to "0 Dollars" as possible. How's that?
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "As CLOSE to "0 Dollars" as possible. How's that?"

    Wow... and after that... does anyone wonder why salespeople aren't the way they'd like them to be?

    Thanx for proving my point, and enjoy the car...

    T
  • Lots of back and forth here. Kinda fun, but reading between the lines is important.
    This is EDMUNDS.COM
    One of the best things I've found here is TMV
    True Market Value. It tells you what the going price is.
    What they already sold for. Did I miss something?
    I found that stuff first, then much later the Forums.
    Off the point, when a salesman looks over my shoulder to somewhere in back of me instead of my mouth area when I'm asking/saying something important, I know I had better do my homework. If I haven't, I'll leave and will come back later. If the exact same model/trim can sell for a different price, at the same time, same lot, how in the H E double-toothpick do you think we buyers are going to present ourselves?
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    If everyone paid Edmunds TMV my job would be the easiest on the planet...

    They don't. Edmunds TMV on a Yaris is NOT invoice.

    T
  • micwebmicweb Posts: 1,617
    This is hilarious, ROTFLMAO but I believe you that it's true:

    Some of the very best salespeople I have EVER known, knew literally NOTHING about the product. The best one (he sold 30+ a month off of almost pure "fresh" traffic), couldn't even tell you how much horsepower something had.

    What made him a great salesperson was that he was a likeable guy, could get to know you quickly, and could pressure the HECK out of you to do it right then without you even realizing it.

    That is a salesperson. Not someone who can spout off gear ratios and then give you a brochure. The fact is, people like that are the turnover in our business, NOT real salespeople. So what everyone says they want is completely different from who they BUY it from.

    My favorite is when a customer tells a salesperson they're "the best salesperson they've dealt with" as they're LEAVING. Realize that 99.9% (or greater) of the time, they are never coming back. Instead, they run into a REAL salesperson at the next dealer and just buy there instead.

    So if you wonder why salespeople are pushy and don't know much about the product, or why we negotiate, that's why in a nutshell.

    Keep in mind, the "hard-sell" is at it's best when the customer has no clue he/she is getting it. Again, that's the difference between a salesperson and an order taker.
  • micwebmicweb Posts: 1,617
    The reason it has to be true, is that current shoppers have the attention span of a gnat and no loyalty whatsoever. Consumer Reports and advocates have created a monster.
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    Thanx for the support =).

    We all love the heartwarming stories of salespeople that are everything you want them to be and then some...

    Unfortunately for me, I live in reality, and realize that the more the consumers try to get salespeople "As close to ZERO as possible", the worse the problem becomes.

    I'd imagine some people (not in sales) still rely on the profits their company makes as their livleyhood. Imagine the ill-will if people started insinuating that it wasn't fair for your profession to make any profit at all...

    There are probably a lot of people on here that think salespeople are just out to get them, and they are at least partially right. Because it's become so hard to make ANY profit these days, it makes salespeople extra hungry when they can.

    Far be it for any of us to want to earn a living...

    T
  • Thanks for being rational. I have never paid MSRP or anything close. At worst case I have paid Invoice plus $200 when I bought the Avalon when it first came out. I am in Charlotte, cal you point me in the right direction to get the Yaris? I would of purchased it today if they would of come off of MSRP+.

    Thanks for your time
  • It's uncomfortable to get ambushed. If you go as far as a test-drive that is a whole different story.
    Every time I get an oil change I look at every new vehicle on the lot. Now and then sit in one for a minute.
    I'd like to buy new every year. A Sienna CE w/rear Disk Brake Package would be fun for a year!!! Drive a lot of miles and get the oil changed at Dealerships, so am there every couple months or sooner. Have a 4cyl Tacoma which has a timing chain which is lubricated by the engine oil. You got to keep the oil CLEAN. I did go to Honda and Nissan to look at and sit in the Versa and Fit. Didn't drive 'em, just looked, and let the salesman know that's all I was up to. Real curious about these little ones, that's why I checked this board recently and started posting. I had driven a rental Yaris Hatch a fair piece. Will back off and leave owners to it!
    My employer charges plenty for my services. I'd probably consider me too expensive :)
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "My employer charges plenty for my services. I'd probably consider me too expensive:)"

    Good for you! Now everyone flame away for him "stealing" his customers hard earned money for not providing his services for as close to free as possible :P j/k...

    Being "Ambushed" is entirely relative. Last I checked, nearly every customer that walks in the door is a competent adult, free to make whatever choices he/she sees fit. Hard as it is to believe, we can't threaten anyone into buying a car.

    Talk about perception being reality though lol...

    :)

    T
  • The reason it has to be true, is that current shoppers have the attention span of a gnat and no loyalty whatsoever. Consumer Reports and advocates have created a monster.

    I would like to go on record as stating that it was specifically Consumer Reports and such advocates which drew my attention to the Yaris via the Echo. I invesigated both local dealers in my city through the BBB and made a decision as to who I thought I would prefer to do business with. (Not much difference in the reports really. Both were good, but the one I went with had one less hit.) The "other" dealer had a pair of Yaris sedans in stock mid-summer. But, the salesman who approached me there was condescending and also told me they would have some liftbacks "in a couple weeks" which was BS. That and the BBB report caused me to take a walk into the other dealership in town.

    After getting a price from the 2nd dealership the salesman told me, "I know you're going to walk out of here and go get a cheaper price from somebody else and buy there. I just know that's what you're going to do." He also told me he would call me in a couple days to see what I thought.

    Well, guess what? I thought about the purchasing decision for a couple days--not the price, but the decision as to whether to buy the car, or not. The salesman never called me, so I called him and said, "Hey, you said you would call me in a couple days." There was silence and then he said, "I forgot." I asked him a couple questions on the phone, then went in and placed an order.

    So, please clarify for me who is loyal and who has the attention span of a gnat. :P

    Postscript: I will add, however, that my car is not here yet although, based on the timeframe quoted me, it should be here this week. I want to be loyal to my salesman and have not "bugged" him. But, my loyalty is not "blind" and there are limits to my patience. I NEED my Yaris!!
  • You're as pushy and persistent as a car salesman. Oh, never mind............:)
    I won't even check the board anymore, you can have the last word.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    the conversation got a little silly.

    The optional stereo in the Yaris is nothing to write home about. About all you can say is that it is a better stereo than the base stereo in the Corolla. And the salesman told me it was 160 watts total power, but I think he was wrong and it's actually 120 watts, or 30 WPC. And the sound is fairly muddy, and it is too bad they didn't make a system with separate tweeters optional on this model. How easy and inexpensive would that have been?

    And kneisl, don't be silly. Decent stereos with enough power to reproduce low frequencies at lower volumes START at 50 watts per channel IMO, and of course what really matters is not this peak rating but rather how much continuous power the amp can put out. This number also goes up with peak power, but has as much to do with the stereo's design as it does with just the peak power rating.

    About the only factory Toyota stereos that impress me rather than just being adequate are the 440-watt optional system in the new RAV4, which has good imaging, and the new optional (9-speaker?) system in the new Camry. And of course, the stereos in most of the Lexi (except the ES350) are pretty darn good too! :-)

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • kneisl1kneisl1 Posts: 1,690
    To me a 400 watt stero must be like those ghetto blasters you hear driving by.
  • Hard to get an exact comparison between pricing on the Scion xa and the Yaris, but..

    A base Scion from the site is:

    13,360

    Comparable optioned Yaris:

    14,520
    *optioned to get power W/L, antilock brakes, 60/40 seats, etc.

    What jumped out at me is that the Scion is a five door and comes with a tach, both of which add cost. I am sure as optioned the Yaris may have some features Scion doesn't..however it looks to me that the Yaris at +$1160 has a price fudge factor built in to MSRP.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    Yeah, if what you WANT is a 5-door (or really any-type hatch, since the Yaris hatch is so hard to get), the xA is probably a better deal unless you don't want any of the power equipment. Many people (me included) don't, and in that case you should be able to save $1000 by going with the Yaris.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • Hi nippononly,

    I was trying to get as close to an apples to apples comparison for the purposes of showing that the MSRP on a standard dealer type sale is set different than the no-haggle type sales of scion, saturn, etc. So the salesperson who seems to think that people should waltz in and pay MSRP on all cars is incorrect because we are not dealing with cars that are priced for that way of doing business.

    I myself was tempted to get a stripped down Yaris...it would fit my needs. But it seems that there are so few available and more and more competitive cars are coming out. so I held off for now.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    I think it's official - there isn't a new car you can buy in America that is as stripped as the base Yaris. I was amused by a blurb on it in the new cars issue of Automobile this month: (paraphrasing) "it must be the 70s all over again - rear defroster and radio optional?" I tend to agree with their perspective, given the car costs $11-12K in base form. If it were $8995, then maybe. More to the point, I wouldn't expect an $8995 base model from Toyota nowadays, and that's fine. But for $11K, things like a radio and defroster should be in there right from the start. Oh yeah, and a tach! :-P

    Now, as for the point you were trying to make: the argument could be made that the Yaris has an advantage or two over the xA you compared - folding mirrors vs fixed on xA, nicer interior in the liftback, newer design with slightly lower emissions and slightly more power, not to mention slightly better handling and ride right out of the box. Does that add up to being worth an extra grand? No. And it's ridiculous to think that a car like Yaris should automatically sell at MSRP. Indeed, it already fails to command that premium at several dealers in my area.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • kneisl1kneisl1 Posts: 1,690
    And with the falling price of gas im wondering if yaris sales will start falling also.
  • bottgersbottgers Posts: 2,027
    I think most people know gas prices will only stay like this until next spring, or until market speculators start driving them back up, whichever comes first. Anyone who bases a vehicle purchase based on what they're seeing now at the pumps would be a fool!
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Posts: 1,690
    Well...the fools have been buying eight and six cylinder cars for a long time...
  • tjw1308tjw1308 Posts: 296
    "And it's ridiculous to think that a car like Yaris should automatically sell at MSRP"

    Why? If demand in your area forces dealers to discount it a little (even invoice is a little mind you) great, but to say it's ridiculous at MSRP is, in fact, ridiculous :P

    The problem these days is that people want a discount no matter what. They don't even realize that all that does is force the manufacturer to charge more to begin with to compensate. If you don't believe me, look at all the great "deals" you can get on hard to sell products...

    If you look at the BIG picture (gas mileage, resale value, reliability, etc...) rather than just what the car sells for the moment you drive it off the lot, you'd see that the Yaris kills it's competition decisively.

    Notice that I don't mention a goofy warranty. Why? Because a long warranty doesn't mean a thing when you're stranded on the side of the highway, or late to a meeting, etc...

    I'd rather have the peace of mind of probably never having to worry about that. Something you just can't say with very much confidence about any of Yaris's competitors besides the Fit.

    Personally I see great value in BOTH the Fit and the Yaris at MSRP. The Fit was originally my choice (and remember I work for Toyota), but demand was dictating a $2000+ price difference (Over MSRP btw) and then I found out just how old the Fit really is (even though it's still pretty darn nice).

    After looking at the big picture, I paid MSRP for a Yaris.

    I COULD have waited a few months, but I wanted it right then, and certainly didn't think it ridiculous considering the other options out there. I also consider my time valuable enough to not sweat spending endless hours/frustration trying to beat a dealer out of a few hundred bucks. Again, if your time isn't worth it, more power to ya.

    Show me how a Focus/Rio/Aerio/Whatever is a better value at below invoice than the Toyota or Honda (If you could get one for it) is at MSRP?

    T
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    My whole statement was "ridiculous to AUTOMATICALLY sell at that price". Meaning dealers taking the attitude that no-one else would sell it under sticker. Because plenty will.

    And if I had bought the car in March - a brand new model in its first month or two - I would have expected to pay full sticker too. Which is why I would never buy a car in its first few months after launch.

    If you had waited six months, you could have saved 5%. If you had waited a year, you could have saved 10%. I like those numbers.

    But you are right, there is something to be said for viewing the deal on its own merits. And on its own merits, in the context of the current market for subcompact models, I feel that the only Yaris that is a decent deal at MSRP is the one you got - the liftback manual with convenience package for $12,300. I don't feel the $16K Yaris S sedan manual with power package is a very good deal at all, although at $14,5 it would be very attractive.

    OTOH, I feel the Fit Sport manual at $15,7 is a very good deal at MSRP, but the base Fit looks shabby with those silly wheel covers, handles a lot worse with those little 14" rims, and leaves out some crucial stuff, so it is a sucky deal at its $14,4 sticker price.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,720
    Show me how a Focus/Rio/Aerio/Whatever is a better value at below invoice than the Toyota or Honda (If you could get one for it) is at MSRP?

    2007 Accent SE, invoice including destination: $13,591

    2007 Yaris Hatchback with comparable equipment, MSRP including destination: $15,075

    Plus the Accent has a 6-speaker stereo (vs. 4), 8-way adjustable driver's seat with dual height adjustments (Yaris has no height adjuster), 16" alloys vs. 15", sport suspension including front and rear antiroll bars, and a few other features not on the Yaris such as leather steering wheel and shifter, heated mirrors, dual lighted vanity mirrors, variable intermittant wipers, 4-wheel disc brakes, and full gauges including tach and temperature. Also, a sunroof and CD changer with cassette are available--and the invoice price with those options is still less than the MSRP price of the Yaris. Plus the Accent has a longer warranty (Yes, I know, you don't like long warranties. I do, especially if I don't pay extra for them.)

    IMO the Accent at invoice (let alone below invoice) is a better value than the Yaris at MSRP.
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