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Honda Civic GX

aaaedgarpoeaaaedgarpoe Posts: 107
edited September 23 in Honda
CNG seems a ‘no-brainer.’ So why is there so limited a selection of autos? If the Civic has side head air bags, I’d get one today. It appears none of the CNG vehicles on the market has side head air bags.
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Comments

  • There seems to be a good number of CNG fueling stations (especially in Southern California), CNG is significantly cheaper than gas and diesel fuel (more miles per US dollar), produces nearly no harmful fumes or pollutants, 92% of natural gas is domestically produced (6% from Canada), is safer than gasoline (less able to catch fire in an accident), there appears to be a very large domestic supply of natural gas for a minimum of 60 years, is possible to refuel at home (soon the Civic GX will have that capability), and the price of natural gas is more stable than gasoline.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    demand creates market. Since GX's have not been selling well, Honda has not been producing alot of them. If people start buying them, Honda will make more.

    I have to disagree about the safety in collision of a CNG powered vehicle. Yes, the fuel tank is more robust, but if it broke in collision, natural gas is more readily combustible than gasoline.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    If you're looking for Civic GX, Honda recently announced retail sales of the model...

    Retail sales of Civic GX and Phill(TM) home refueling system to begin in Spring 2005
  • Read that natural gas only combusts if it has between a 4 and 14% concentration with air.

    It was the Phill that initially got me interested in CNG cars.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    I am not sure of the current GX, but the previous generation was capable of running on both natural gas and gasoline with a flick of a switch. So, lack of refueling stations was not of a concern as one would fill up with gasoline when CNG ran out, until one reached a CNG station.

    Although, CNG is not really a renewable source, I am pretty sure that CNG Civic can run on Methane as well, which can be produced from waste. Just like Ethanol, Methane is a biologically renewable source of energy, and are by products of basterial digestion.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,873
    Not Honda anyway. These were designed for fleet usage and they have been flops for the most part.

    Who knows, maybe something will change?
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    The 1996-2000 Honda Civic had a GX. I have seen them offered for public sale at some dealerships.

    Now if Honda started offering Diesels in the US, they would have me as a customer. And I don't want an Izuzu diesel, like they have in Europe. It would be nice to have a Honda developed diesel, then I can run it on used frying oil. http://www.greasecar.com/ The only side effect is that people behind me get an unexplained carving for french (freedom) fries. :-)
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,873
    I know what you mean, they did build a few of these. Our store never sold any.

    Who knows what the future may bring?
  • john500john500 Posts: 409
    If you are going to store a flammable compressed gas, the most logical step would be the route of BMW and go directly for hydrogen powered vehicles (zero greenhouse emissions and circumvent the fuel cell). There was a big movement in the 1990's to convert house power from electric to natural gas for cost savings. Ten to twenty years later, the cost differential between natural gas and electric has dropped considerably to power a hot water heater. The same price-stucture phenomenon would occur if natural gas cars came to market. The progression of vehicles shoul go:
    1. smaller displacement engines with less vehicle weight
    2. gas-electric hybrid vehicles (2007)
    3. gas-diesel or diesel-like hybrid vehicles (2009)
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    2. gas-electric hybrid vehicles (2007)
    3. gas-diesel or diesel-like hybrid vehicles (2009)


    Problem with hydrogen program is that you need new infrastructure for refueling, while Honda's GX home buy program includes an adaptor for refueling at home. Problem, as you mentioned with NG is that the resources are limited. Hydrogen in the current state of technology is very expensive to produce. Some of the fuel cell technology allows for "on-site" hydrogen production from less volatile alcohols, and petroleum products.

    The gas-electric hybrids are not as fuel efficient as people think they are. Yes, on the surface they are producing 50+ MPG, but that is what is visible to the consumer, the production and actual battery charging stages are still consuming energy in vast amounts.

    Diesel has one advantage at this point, it can be run on renewable vegetable oil, even used vegetable oil. It will not only relieve the waste constraints on the current food industry, but will also benefit the farmers.
    http://www.greasecar.com/
    Too bad that these efforts are not supported by the current or future US govenment.
  • "actual battery charging stages are still consuming energy in vast amounts"

    There's no such thing in hybrids. The battery is charged by the gasoline in your tank... which is computed into the 50 MPG figure.

    Troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote electrictroy-"The battery is charged by the gasoline in your tank... which is computed into the 50 MPG figure."-end quote

    ACTUALLY, battery in Hybrids is also charged by braking regeneration. So a small portion of the charging costs NO fuel. Don't forget that...
  • And THAT comes from the *gasoline* speeding up the car to 60... so you can use your brakes and try to recycle it.

    ALL the energy ultimately comes from the tank. If the car is brand-new but the tank is empty, you ain't going nowhere.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    You are having a problem understanding how the brake regen process works I think......

    ALL the energy does NOT come from fuel. Only when the FUEL is being used to charge the battery.

    Look at it this way: if there was NO REGEN energy captured during braking, would the car use more fuel, or would it use less fuel?

    (hint: The answer is more fuel.)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    But if you don’t use regenerative braking, the energy isn’t going back to the gasoline tank.

    This goes back to our discussion on creation versus transformation of energy.
  • The battery is charged by slowing down the vehicle with the generator.

    Agreed.

    But what was used to speed up the car in the first place? The fuel. If there was no fuel, there'd be no braking. So ultimately *all* of the battery's energy comes directly or indirectly from gasoline.

    .

    PE (i) + KE (i) = PE (f) + KE (f) - energy loss
    gasoline + 0 mph = battery + 0 mph - resistance

    As you can see from this simple physics equation, the energy moves from the gasoline to the battery. If gasoline = 0, then battery *must* also equal 0.

    .

    "actual battery charging stages are still consuming energy in vast amounts"

    There's no such thing in hybrids. The battery is charged by the gasoline in your tank... which is computed into the 50 MPG figure.

    Troy
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    And fuel isn’t creating energy either! Remember, here the idea is transformation of energy, not creation of it. Regenerative braking is transforming energy into something useful as opposed to dissipating the same as heat (released into the atmosphere).

    I’m still not sure why you would make a point against recycling energy towards productive use.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote robertsmx-"Regenerative braking is transforming energy into something useful as opposed to dissipating the same as heat (released into the atmosphere)."-end quote

    Very good succinct statement. Rather than wasting the energy lost by braking, the Hybrids capture that energy and re-use it.

    It breaks down to this: a car without regen braking and EVERY SINGLE other component EXACTLY the same as another car WITH regen braking, the regen braking car will get higher MPG.

    Thus the regen is a good, green, gas-saving feature.

    I, too, am confused about someone trying to disrespect the regen braking system - what is the ultimate goal of that argument?
  • You need to review the options available on the Civic GX. It does have side airbags available along with the antilock breaks. I believe it is called the safety package. I have a 2004 Civic GX and it is a great little car. While it does not have the pickup of my previous car it does get me to and from work much quicker with the use of the diamond lane. There are many other pluses to it too.

     

    1. Gas for it right now is at $1.50 per gallon and going down quickly. Also it will be cheaper when Phill is available (.90/gallon + electricity costs for compressing) as you will not have to pay the stations for compressing the gas for you.

    2. Maintenance cost are much lower due to the fact there is less acid put into the oil from the combustion of gasoline which breaks down the oil (oil changes every 10,000 miles-- with non-synthetic-- oil opposed to every 3000 in normal cars).

    3. CNG is safer as said below as there is a narrow range of concentration in air when it will combust - plus the tanks are built to specifications much higher than gasoline tanks. One test was to hit a tank with a train at full speed and the test tanks did not rupture. Also, CNG is lighter than air so if it does escape from the tank it quickly dissipates where gasoline will pool and the vapors easily combust.

    4. Carpool lane. As I said above, I travel 30 miles to work through downtown L.A. and I make the trip during rush-hour in less than 45 minutes.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Did I not read that the miles per tank is limited to ~250 miles because of the limited tank capacity?

     

    And the GX is only available as a 2-dr, right?
  • You are correct that it is limited to ~250 miles (I have only been able to get 210 because with fast fill stations-all that are where I fill up you don't get a "Full" tank due to heating of the vapor during compression).

     

    No the GX is only available in the 4-door model.

     

    Doug
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Why does the GX not show up on Edmunds "New Cars" page for the Civic?

     

    Is the GX only available to certain geographic areas?
  • I don't know why they don't have it on their site. I noticed that when I was doing my "due diligence" before I bought my car.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    I believe CNG is havier than air and will sink when released.

     

    Civic GX has been out since the 1996 redesign, where have you people been?

     

    I believe it still has the regular gasoline tank as well, and a switch to go from CNG to gasoline. It goes both ways, basically.
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    Its nice that Honda is selling CNG version of Civic. CNG is a clean burning fuel which pollutes less and also reduces Crude Oil consumption.

     

    Since there is not enough CNG stations, usage of these vehicles are less. With a device like Phill it should be cheaper and easier.

     

    Ofcourse the cons are the trunk capacity is only half that of regular civic.

     

    As we speak now, there are 3,910,102 CNG powered vehicles according to

    http://www.iangv.org/jaytech/default.php?PageID=130

    Argentina, Brazil, Pakistan are the leaders.

     

    Phill is coming out in Spring-2005 and Civic-MY-2006 will be offered in CNG version as well in both US & EU. Both these things should make CNG vehicles more popular.
  • Blueiedgod,

     

    You are very mistaken.

     

    1. Natural gas is lighter than air so it rises and dispurses. See paragraph 11 at http://www.ngv.org/ngv/ngvorg01.nsf/bytitle/NGVsSafetyBulletin.ht- m

     

    2. While the original GX could be ordered bi-fuel the current GX is dedicated natural gas vehicles. Further, in order to qualify for diamond lane stickers an NGV MUST be a DEDICATED (not bi-fuel) and must meet ILEV (federal standards) and ULEV or SULEV or PZEV (state standards). (see http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/charging/alt_fuels.asp#natural- gas )

     

    Believe me...I have one and made my 1.5 hour commute to a 40 minute commute. I researched these for two years before I bought one.
  • You are correct CNG cars are very clean burning. Here are some facts to back it up...

     

    1. Natural Gas Civic is rated the "Cleanest Internal Combustion Engine" ever tested by CARB.

     

    2. The Civic GX emissions of reactive hydrocarbons driving from Los Angeles to Washington D.C. are less than that of spilling a TEASPOONFUL of gasoline.

     

    3. When Honda and the Federal Governement first tested the NGV Civic the emission equipment could not dectect anything. They had to create more sensitive equipment to measure the emissions.

     

    4. "In highly polluted areas, the air coming out of the GX’s exhaust pipe can actually be cleaner than the air you are breathing."

     

    All from these articles: http://www.greenatworkmag.com/gwsubaccess/01novdec/special.html

     

    http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et0401/et0401s13.html
  • It scored 57 out of a maximum 100, making the Civic GX the #1 cleanest car:

    http://www.greenercars.com/12green.html
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