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Porsche 911

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  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Yep:

    I warm it up for about 4 to 5 minutes before taking off, average run has been 15 miles and it does take a while to warm the oil to operating temperature. Water temp always reaches operating temperature even before the oil temp sensor dial moves. Good advise, thanks for making me more aware of the issue. I will be planning longer drives ( which will no doubt be fun ) with the intention of getting the milage, break-in period , on the clock. Thanks
    Chromedome
  • Thanks so much for your response and I definitely will try out the c4s.
    Have a great day!
  • There's no fine involved. Its a "fix-it" ticket. You have to install the front plate and then go to a local police station and have them sign off that it has in fact been installed before sending it back in. Once they do that you can take it off again (kidding).
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    1stimer,
    Here's what I've gleaned from Porsche Forums elsewhere. The C4 is probably an easier car to drive but, once used to its handling, the C2 can be driven faster and may be more fun for enthusiasts. I've always liked AWD being a former New Yorker and my 2006 C4 Cab could be here this week!
    I've also read that IF you're tall OR fat, the regular seats are fine and feel great. I think you have to sit in/drive in the different seats for an extended period of time to be sure which you prefer just as you should drive a C2 and a C4 to see which you prefer.
    Then, when you're ready to order, welcome to Porsche options craziness and expense!
    :)
  • Thanks so much for your advice. When you lived in New York did you drive it year round? Do you think a c4 is considerably safer than a c2 when driving on wet roads?
    Thanks!!
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Dweiser:

    Good for you, if you are anything like me, having worked hard, taken care of your family and invested well, it is about time to take care of yourself a little. Generally, 55 to 60 years olds, I have been told,are average in age range for individuals who buy NEW Porsche 997s. You deserve it and I know you will have a blast with it. Enjoy your car to the max.
    The first time you punch it,if only to 4200rpm, you really do start to understand what horsepower does for you in the curves. Now it's time to check out the radar detectors on the web..bye
    Chromedome
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Dear Habitat1:
    Open letter to all FELLOW Porsche-o-files and nut case, anal retentive " car guys ". We are the " car guys " and as I have been noticing on the web, the two most common subjects on the Porsche forums are options and break-in-period
    Who, but us, are the most likely of all Porsche owners to increase the frenquency of oil changes, maintain our vehicles on a schedule more rigorous than required and concern ourselves most with overall vehicle care...ya US. When was the last time you drove your 997 140mph, punched it to 6800 rpm or spent the weekend at the track? Ya right! me either. So let's get off the break -in - period kick and drop the subject. The engineers at Porsche don't expect the average buyer to be in our category and they want their cars to make it through the warranty period. The kid whose daddy drops 160K for a new turbo should care less about break-in- period. These cars are not cheap and Porsche realizes the type of person who buys these cars in the USA.They engineer them !They still last! Lastly, I would ask...why 9 quarts of oil? Well, oil as you know has been used as an engine coolant in all past Porsches as well as they do now even in a water cooled engine. Does warm or hot oil perform better than cool oil? Why then are additives designed to penetrate metal and cling to metal surfaces. There is plenty of oil available to all surfaces 15 seconds after start up. Do we need oil pre-heaters at 60 degrees outside temps? The point of the 4200 rpm limit, I would wager , has less do with oil or oil temperature than it has to do with negative pressure on the rear side of the piston and ring seating. Rings seat on compression as well as exhaust strokes and at 6800 rpm , I would bet, rings do not seat as efficently as at 4200 rpm.If oil wasn't working well at start up every engine would fail in 15 seconds. Point is , enjoy your car and forget about all the bull-[non-permissible content removed] you read on the web. The warning in the Porsche manual tells you about RPM only and not oil temp. Except they mention that you should let a hard driven or well heated car left to run about 1 minute after stopping AS a COOLANT Procedure! Be logical and use your head. Let's not get too nutzoid

    Chromedome
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Chromedome,

    I'm not sure if you had too much coffee before writing your last post or I didn't have enough before trying to read it, but whatever point you were trying to make is hazzy at best.

    I'm through my break in period. It was done in accordance with the owners manual - and more importantly - followed the consistent advice I received from three individuals who have magnitudes more Porsche experience than I can ever hope to achieve: (1) my sales manager who worked for 7+ years as an engineer at the Porsche factory, (2) a family friend who has never had less than 2 Porsches in his garage since the early 1970's (currently includes a perfect 356 and a 996 911TT) and (3) a neighbor who was on Porsche's racing team for 15+ years and is still on their advisory board.

    Ask all your questions, speculate your own answers and grip it and rip it if you want. But I elected to follow their advice. And it was a pretty easy 5-6 weeks at that.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Habitat1:

    The issue is not my xanthine serum level , your writing critique, or who you have befriended, but common sense and placing paranoia before reason. Read all the opinion on the subject of break in period you like . The fact is that most of us are not engineers ; we do, however, take better care of our new and used Porsches than the average bimbo out there.
    Read the message again , with your tongue in your cheek, and see if you can pick up on the satire! Let us have the emotion on this subject take us to the fun side of these cars and leave the "worry" aside. Opinions are like [non-permissible content removed] , everybody has one. In closing, I find it interesting taht you know so many " Porsche " people, where do you live in Zuffenhausen?...a little chum ( bait )

    Chromedome
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Fair enough, let's keep it friendly and fun.

    Perhaps my past posts suggested I was "worried" - not the case. Careful and prudent, but not worried. After all, this is a "fun" car. And the only thing I uncovered in my research was the "rear main seal" problem that has infected 996's and some 997's. My dealer believes it is often related to improper break-in, but other sources say not so. I'll need to decide whether that is enough of a reason to get an extended warranty. Your opinion?

    And no, I don't live in Zuffenhausen. Just the same neighborhood that I bought into in 1987. But as DC prices in prime neighborhoods have increased, so it seems, has the net worth of the homeowners and quality of cars in the garages. And I didn't even mention that I just found out that a dad of one of my duaghter's classmates is an attorney/lobbyist for Porsche here in DC. Plan on buying him a beer and picking his brain.

    So, are you up to 300 miles yet? (a little chum) ;)
  • I am at a loss to understand chrmdome's comments, but no matter. Much as he tries, he seems not to have the spirit--or the writing skills--of Jack Kerouac.

    Seriously, though, breaking in a car properly makes a lot of sense . . . despite all of the "advances" we have made in our modern industrial society, we have not been able to re-write the laws of physics and chemistry . . . . the engine's seals--as well as many other components--need time to "break in". Does a pitcher come into the stadium and throw 100 mph+ without warming up?

    Despite all of the trickeries of modern corporations, I don't think they're pulling our legs here . . . and I don't understand the need to give Habitat1 a hard time. Better to be safe than sorry--and to understand machines.

    -BS
  • Considerably safer? Depends on your tires and intelligence/skills/judgment as a driver. As a general matter, I suspect it is somewhat (i.e., more than marginal, less than substantially) safer.

    For what it's worth, I live in Manhattan and am buying a C4--as you can see from my previous posts.

    While a 4S would be ideal, I couldn't get comfortable with the extra $10k that it costs--given the worth to me of the features that that $10k buys. I don't need the 19" wheels and will never get enough of a chance to use PASM--and don't think 30 bhp (the only thing I really would care about other than the Xenons) is worth the $9k (net of Xenon expense).

    I don't think that the 4wd feature compromises performance that much--otherwise why would they make all Turbos and Turbo Ss 4wd?--but, in any event, I don't care. I won't get to drive it that way anyway. And I emphasize the word "think" because I haven't been behind the wheel of a C2 long enough to have a view, much less a C4 . . . and I suspect that very few of us are so seasoned as to REALLY know . . .

    But even if it does, the incremantal safety/peace of mind is worth the $6k to me . . . .

    Just my $0.02.

    -BS
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    1stimer, you're most welcome BUT it's been 45 YEARS since my last Porsche. My AWD vehicles in upstate NY were Subarus.
    bsumner (and others), my subscription to "Excellence" (Porsche magazine) started today with the December issue. Both they and Autoweek (a well thought of European magazine) feel there is a problem with 997s and PASM to the degree that they are recommending against the S in favor of the regular 997 until Porsche solves the PASM problem (handling).
    Please don't flame me posters, I'm just passing on what I read today.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Habitat1:
    Friendly and FUN! as originally intended and as it shall continue. No offense taken, none intended. You had to expect a quippy remark as return fire for your " caffeine and hazzy " comment. Actually I did take your friendly advise and put 50 miles on my C2S last night after work, just 2 miles shy of 300. Since this is a weekend car, I do expect a 5 or 6 month run before I hit the 2K mile mark. I do not remember if the requirement for break in period had a time limition issue. Miles vs time is questionable. I purchased a 5 series BMW in August 04' and have yet to break the 5500 mile mark. Work is 3 blocks away. Oh Well! My point with the OPEN LETTER, one that was not focused on you personally, is a follows:
    1) We are all car guys, we all are aware of the break in period issue, maybe painfully so..
    2) Being car guys, we will all maintain our C2's and C4's to a point well beyond required.
    3) Most of us are not engineers, but stupid people don't buy $100,000 cars.
    4) We don't spend $100,000 on a car and treat it like a Ugo
    5) You can beat a dead dog but the last wack is redundant.

    The RMS issue has been discussed as in the same arena.My understanding with this issue, although possibly a BIP issue also, is that high Hp/ Torque engines and drivetrains require large, heavy clutch/ flywheel assemblies. As with the 996 motors, these assemblies were at a relatively distant position from their supporting bearings and therefore would occilate unevenly and cause the RMS to go " out of round" causing oil leakage. As with marine propellar shafts , a double seal was the fix expecting redundancy to correct the problem when a larger, more supportive inhouse bearing was the awnser. I do beleive the 997 bearing/ shaft issue has been addressed. Please advise if you find out otherwise.
    Drifting through the chum, I'd say that you too find this banter fun. People who use their middle school diploma as evidence of education rarely find themselves at an income level enjoying fine automobiles as we are so fortunate to own. Have fun with your car.

    Chromedome, back for more in 4 days...
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Dear Bsumner:
    Greetings! Habitat1 is a big boy and he can take care of himself, however, thank you very much for your comparison of my writing technique and skills to that of Jack Kerouac. He is a legend. Spirit and writing skills aside, please do me the favor of following my thread of comments back to November 5; when fully absorbed, or in your case adsorbed, you just may see that I was in full aggreement with Habitat1 on break in period. My
    satirical "Open to All" letter was neither personally critcal nor pointed. The Break-in-Period issue is as over discussed as RMS. This discussion has a tendancy to focus
    on issues that bring us into the negative. This is supposed to be fun! Beat it to death, wasn't Jack a " Beatnik " ?
    Jack Kerouac was misunderstood by many; actually he appeared to produce writings that were born out of an amphetamine haze and completed in days when in fact they were long thoughout creations that required weeks to compile. Those most vocal critics, unable to understand " THE POINT " probably stopped after they read the forward.

    Chromedome , have fun with your car too, they are a blast are they not??
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    dweiser,

    I'd like to read more about the PASM concern. Which issue of Autoweek and is "Excellence" available at bookstore newsstands? What is the nature of the "problem"? i.e. malfunction?

    Chromedome - now don't "chum" me with a "worried?" question. Just intellectually curious. ;)
  • Sigh...

    These arguments have been hashed/rehashed on Rennlist and Rennteam for the past, oh...ten months.

    For the record, I own a 997S Cab, Midnight Blue/Beige, build date 4/27/05, purchased 6/13/05, with 6500 miles on it (it was a great summer). I followed the 2000 mile break in (did it in about 3-4 weeks) but gradually increased my RPMs briefly to 5500 and then 6500(ie for 15-30 seconds or so) after 1000 miles. Within reason, I now think that the break in was probably not necessary.

    Several issues:

    (1) The German owner's manual says nothing about a break-in mileage (or km) limit. European manuals have a completely different (lower) limit than the US manuals. The cars are the same. If the breask-in was so important, why the different limits?
    (2) The engines are "broken-in" at the factory for at least 10 minutes where they are run at full throttle.
    (3) The stuff in Autoweek is pure Porsche weenie nonsense. I, like most Porsche 997 owners, have had absolutely no problems with the PASM and handling. There are simply no problems to solve. I chose the S since it was the only car I could buy at the time, and I like the PASM/PSM, the additional 35 hp, and the 19 inch wheels--all of which would have cost more than 10K if ordered separately. If I had to order one today, knowing what I do now, I would still get the S.
    (4) The vast majority of us who buy Porsches, I suspect, are "car guys" with the good fortune to have the $$$ to spend on their ultimate fantasy car. Few of us will consistently drive at 140 mph on the track every weekend, or run a Monte Carlo like rally, taking mountain turns at 60 mph with no guardrail. We simply want cars that reflect the amount of $$$ we put into them in terms of performance and quality. We also want to do everything to preserve this quality--hence the compulsive character of some of the "break-in" posts. Porsche has had about 40 years to get the 911 right, and there is a reason that 75% of all Porsches built are still on the road, and there is a reason that the owner's manual has a recommendation for the 22 and 25 year service intervals. These cars are built to last for a long time under some pretty intense driving--a lot more than the vast majority of us are going to dish out.

    Just my $0.02.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Dear Sir:

    Well put, satire sometimes is a shot over the head of some.
    ( Habitat1... chum )These automobiles are extremely well built and Porsche continues to address these problems; they are compelled to do so. In the final analysis, my description of us as " car guys " tried to present the same message...WE ARE THE ONES WHO WILL TAKE THE ULTIMATE CARE OF OUR CARS, SO RELAX. Once the smoke clears, ya maybe exhaust smoke, a Porsche is still a car....cars develope mechanical problems. I will never reach 140 mph, I will not go to the track, I ( most likeley ) will never reach redline, but I am seriouly anal retentive about my cars...hence my presence here and my love for multiple oil changes. See ya.

    Chromedome
  • A car stereo shop told me I couldn't connect my ipod to my stereo. Has anyone successfully done this?
  • the cost of my 06 c4s cab with options came to 109,000. I had mixed prices given to me from different dealerships. One dealership would not budge from msrp, another knocked off 2K and another 4K. One dealer told me he would discount a c4 by $5000 but not a c4s. Any input on this info?
  • Firstly, Hi all. Being a newbie to the forum, I thought I'd add some thoughts and ask some questions - please no shouting as I've already got a headache!

    I'm looking to buy/lease my first ever 911. I've owned a Boxster a few years back and really enjoyed the experience but it wasn't practical for me due to kids. Looking at a 911 cab now (At least the kids will have to sit upright for once rather than slouching as they always do - ask a parent!).

    I've been offered $5K off MSRP by a local dealer and £6K off by another (out of state) for a C2S Cab OR a C4S cab (don't ask who yet - I'll tel AFTER the deal's done). However, I reckon I can squeeze them a little more! I guess these are good deals from what I read here.

    I have a few questions:
    Firstly, why buy when you can lease? Given the expected future maintenance costs, isn't it better to lease and simply changes after 3/4 years? Depreciation will be the major factor in both cases - so what's the difference? If you're gonna be down by about $40K in 3 years on an average $100K car in both scenarios, then why not simply change after 3 years - what's the point in buying potential future headaches (I've already got one of those!). I know a Doc around here who always leases his P cars. Is this just a personal thing or is there some financial logic behind it?

    Secondly, I know everyone has their own thoughts on 2 vs 4 (and Regular vs S) but if one lives in a snow state, isn't it possible to drive both types (2 and 4's) equally easily in snow IF equipped with all-season tires? And, is it possible to drive year round on all-season tires - saves the hassle of changing (obviously no track time is intended)? Might even get better wear out of them as compared to the summer ones...

    Finally (sorry for the newbie long post), has anyone optioned a two-tone leather interior eg black/sand etc and if so, what's it like?

    That's it! Hope to hear from you P car nuts out there.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    On the lease vs. buy, you need to do the economic analysis yourself - including tax implications. Porsche, unlike other manufacturers, is not giving away free money to help sell their products. Therefore, the "roughly" $5,000 down and $1,400 per month lease payment I was quoted for a 2006 Cab S would have worked out to $70,000 over a 4 year lease. I expect to take a hit on depreciation, but not that much! Perhaps I was high-balled on the actual lease payments, but there was another purely subjective psychological factor at work for me. I could afford to pay cash at the time of purchase and write it off as a one time "splurge". But writing a check for $1,400 every month for the next 4 years would have been far more pin pricks than I wanted to impose on myself. So, rather than try to negotiate money factors and the like on a car to be ordered, I cut a fairly big discount on a 2005 Cab S in stock.

    On the 2 vs 4 in the snow, this question has been debated a lot in the past. But my opinion is that - given that I own my car and don't lease it - I'm not going to subject it to winter driving through snow and muck, period. I didn't want to do that with my $32k Honda S2000 (which I traded at over 70% of it's original price after 2.5 years), so I'm sure not going to do it with a car that costs 3 times as much. And, from a practical standpoint, the 911 has very low ground clearance. The "S" version 1/2" less. So even putting on snow or all season tires on a winter set of rims isn't going to get you through much of a snowfall without making a mess of your undercarraige and front end. And driving year round on all seasons - which must be hard to find in the C2S 19" 295/30 size - is compromising the cars handling and performance all 12 months. Porsche does have a solution, it's called a Cayenne. Mine is a third car.

    P.S. Right you are about the kids. Mine's posture has improved noticably after about 1,000 miles in the back of the 911 over the past 8 weeks. Total odometer as of last night 3,255.
  • (1) I think buying is still better than leasing (which I thoought about) if you hold the car more than 3-4 years. My wife additionally told me that if I didn't have the cash upfront for a car like this, then forget it.
    (2) I thought about the C2 versus C4 issue for a long time. It's not the all wheel traction that is the issue in the winter--it's the ground clearance. Anything more than 4 inches of snow, forget it--the car simply could get stuck. That doesn't even factor in the raod salt, etc. Given the $15-20K difference between the C2 and the C4, it made more sense to have the C2 for March/April to November where I live, and drive a 2001 Audi S4 for the winter (an absolute high performance tank that you could pick up for 15-20K)
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "Given the $15-20K difference between the C2 and the C4"

    Say what?? The difference in MSRP is "only" $5,700-$5,800 to go from the "2" to the "4". And, in the non-"S" models, the 4 gives you upgraded rear wheels and tires (265 to 295 series, with wider rims) that would be worth a few hundred dollars by themselves.

    I agree with your conclusion about the snow limitations, even with a C4. But the price difference could support a 1995 Nissan Maxima, not a 2001 S4. Perhaps you were mistakenly comparing a C2 to a C4S, which adds the $10,000 "S" upgrade?
  • I've also thought about going with the C2S cab and buying a cheapo car/truck for the winter months. But having to spend out more cash for another motor (even if only a darn Hyundai), because the $100K car won't cut it in the snow, really hurts!
    Sometimes I just think I should get an M3 or similar and put the $40-50K saved into a Mutual Fund!

    The biggest problem, as you say, is the ground clearance on the 997s. I know I could lease a cheapo truck cheaply for the cost of snow tires and wheels (nearly anyway) but does it make sense from any perspective?

    Also, any more news on deals going around at this time?
  • Habitat,

    I should have mentioned is that I'm being quoted $1606 exl tax for a 3 year lease , 0 down, 12K per year mileage.

    Out of that, the lease payment amount to just under $17K whilst Depreciation amounts to about $41K. All exl tax.

    By anyone standards that's a big hit on Depreciation. However, my argument was that, this figure is going to figure in both types of financial deals(buy orlease). There's no getting around this. Of course, the biggest hit vis a vis Depreciation is during the first 3 years. If you iuntend to keep the car longer (5/6/7 years) then it makes perfect sense to buy. However, for a 3 year period, I don't see the financial sense in buying over leasing.
    I wonder how much the finance charge would be for having to borrow $100K (unless you have cash in which case I wonder what the Opportunity cost of this amount would be)?
  • naifnaif Posts: 14
    Took delivery two weeks ago of a 997 Cab, Slate Grey, Sand Beige, black top and mats--there's just enough brown in the slate to harmonize with the sand very nicely, it turns out. (This despite the sales manager's opinion that I was throwing money away" on the slate because "side by side, you can't tell it from the Seal Gray." Whether his aesthetic sense is worse than his salesmanship has yet to be established.)

    The car is meeting my expectations in every way, unlike the dealer. When he delivered it, no manual was supplied for the PCM system. My salesman told me it was probably because they had changed the equipment for the 2006 and didn't have one yet. I called him several times for instructions I couldn't figure out--the fourth time I told him it was hard to believe there was no manual for all that complication and he opined that porsche was being cheap, and since I didn't order the Nav system I didn't get a PCM manual. Then he found that he happened to have one in his desk, and FedExed it to me. What do you all think is an appropriate response? (Beyond the scores I gave JD Power when they called for feedback.)

    Second: any advice on snowtires? This will be my everyday car in Boston.

    Third: Regarding washing the thing, an hour on the web will convince you that you and your car should move to a monastery where you will divide your time between buying specialized car care products and applying them to your obsession. The manual clearly advises not to take your cabriolet top through automatic car washes, though my salesman was not concerned about it. What's a reasonable balance for a car I'm likely to keep for ten years?

    Thanks.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I agree with your methodology, it's just that the numbers I would plug in are a little different.

    I'm not sure how long I will keep the car - but for purposes of a direct comparison to your lease, let's say 3 years. My car stickered for $102.8k. I got a $10k discount - thanks in part to being able to write a check on the spot. I'm guessing that in three years, it will be worth $60k+/- ($43k under the MSRP, but only $33k under what I spent). Now, if you want to add an opportunity cost to my loss of use of $93k over the next 3 years, I would figure it at 4% per year. That's the after tax cost for me to borrow $100k on a home mortgage (have ample equity in my home). Compounded, that's 12.5% or about $11,700.

    So, by my figures, I would estimate that my car will cost me roughly $33k in actual cash costs and $12k in theoretical "opportunity" costs for a total of $45k over three years.

    You would be spending $57,816 over three years in cold hard cash. With an opportunity cost of another $3,500, using my 4% applied against each monthly payment (although try doing that with a home equity loan). That makes your total over $61,000.

    I could be wrong about my resale value, and perhaps it will only be worth $50k in three years (but 50% depreciation from MSRP in that time would be unprecedented for a 911). But even then, I'm only at $55k total cost, still $6k less than the lease would have been.

    Bottom line is that everyone must do what they feel comfortable with. I was fortunate to have the ability to pay cash and not have it feel too painful. Now every month I'm getting the return on my investment (i.e. fun) without having to write a big check. But I can't fault others for looking at it differently, depending upon their circumstances.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    First: I would think an appropriate response would be for you to call or write the Sales Manager (cc the GM) and describe the situation(s) you were subjected to and ask them if this is consistent with their standards. It certainly isn't what I would expect from a Porsche dealership.

    Second: You've probably seen my previous posts about snowtires not raising the ground clearance. If you really must use the car year round in Boston, call the Tire Rack for their recommendations. They are experts and professional (more so than your dealer, so it seems).

    Third: Your salesman is an idiot. I was advised to stay away from automatic car washes by my Honda sales manager when I bought a $32k Honda S2000. I didn't ask for a detailed chemical analysis, but accepted that car wash soap is not good for a canvas top. Nothing but clean water ever hit my Honda's top, and it looked perfect after 2.5 years. I have no intention of moving to a monestary, but I've never taken any of my cars to an automatic car wash. I have a bucket, soft sponge and hose handy. It takes me 20 minutes to wash and dry the 911. Add another 90 minutes to wax it with Maguires Professional. That's the beauty of a small car with a soft top.

    Congratulations on your new car. Haven't seen Slate Grey in person, but it sounds very nice. I'm at 3,400 miles in 8 1/2 weeks in case you are the competitive type. ;)
  • naifnaif Posts: 14
    Thanks for your thoughts, Habitat1. Even if I were competitive, it would be hopeless--I do only about 10k/year. Looking forward to the right half of the tach, but for now just happy to have the top down today in Boston--who'd have guessed?

    I did the same yesterday--20 minutes to wash, 90 to wax. How often would you go before the next wax, assuming daily driving?
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