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Porsche 911

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  • Habitat1, nice analysis per usual. Please understand though, I realize I didn't do enough research but it was late, I was picking up the Cayenne that had been in for service, and had a yoga class to get to 45 miles away. (Tip: every guy over 50 and especially anyone who spent time humping across VN should take yoga to stave off the grouchy old man syndrome and get the kinks out of an abused body.)

    I'm intrigued though. Do you feel that the Atlas Grey/beige leather combination is an unpopular color in the market place? (I agree with the sentiment of the board though that one should spec the car out for your pleasure and to heck with resale).

    Maybe one reason the '06 car sits unsold at the mid point in the '07 model year is not just the color but that the price is wrong? Even at "dealer invoice" it may be too high. Here's why: shouldn't a new '06 be worth no more than a used CPO '06 with a deduction for the low mileage on the new one? A Buffett or Zell would say that the dealer shouldn't expect to get bailed out of a bad decision by having someone reimburse him his "cost". Geez, I've got some Tico stock I'd like to sell at my cost.
  • AH HA, a C4 that lives up near the Thruway but doesn't get driven in winter. Kind of like a cab that never gets to roll the top down. Why spec it that way?
  • Porsche has never had Dealer Incentive dollars on 911s...That said, your point about the "In Service" date is critical here.

    Porsche works on a "Turn an Earn" basis for it's allocation
    process...Sadly, this process can be abused and on occasion a car will be "punched", reported as sold, and that is not the case. However; the meter starts to run on the Warranty.
    This is something to be very wary of when seeing a deeply discounted Carrera.
  • I am thinking of killing two birds with one stone by attending with my brother the PDS in Alabama that is featured on the website - i) as a novice, I really need to learn how to drive my 911 properly (T4S on order, will be delivered in May) and ii) makes for a great 30th b-day gift for my brother. Several questions -

    1) Has anybody attended and can give me and the board a review of the experience? Obviously, very pricy (1,800 for one day or 3,000 for two) but i think well worth it if i am truly taught how to drive my car properly

    2) Also, can anyone opine on the one day vs two day course? Is it worth it to have the 2nd day? And of course, the brilliant marketers offer an advance course for graduates of the two day program (not the 1 day).

    3) The website says they have boxsters, caymans, 911s and cayennes. As a (future) 911 owner, will i be able to drive the 911 most of the time? I think it would be a waste if i drew the short straw and was "stuck" with a boxster the entire time.

    Any opinions appreciated.

    Kenny
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,520
    Great idea!

    My only comment would be is if one were a bad driver in a Boxster, one would end up being a REALLY bad driver in a 911. It would be fine to start off in the Boxster to gain your confidence and then work up to the 911, which is more demanding IMO.

    MODERATOR

  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    Kenny, your local PCA chapter may let you build a foundation much more cheaply--perhaps after a few autocrosses and driving schools, you might have a better idea whether the porsche event is worth the dinero ,and you'd probably get more out of it too.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "if one were a bad driver in a Boxster, one would end up being a REALLY bad driver in a 911."

    However, an AWD 911 (not the TT) is practically viceless. Easy to drive fast, and very forgiving.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,520
    Ah, no car is viceless in the wrong hands....ultimately, it's the tires that keep you on the track, so when you reach the limits or do a really dumb thing, 10WD isn't going to help you.

    That's why I like pro driver training so much---good for the newbie driver, good for the rest of us on the road.

    MODERATOR

  • chile96chile96 Posts: 330
    about the Skip Barber school in Birmingham, AL...I have yet to hear one person who did not think it was the best driving related experience of their life. I regret not making the time to do it while i lived in ATL.

    And you get to drive all the cars. You use different cars for different parts of the school(skid pad, track, etc...) I don't remember which car goes with what except the C2 is used for the track.

    Don't know what to say about 1 day vs 2 day but if your budget/time allows for it, why not???

    Have fun and let us know
  • I have a 07 C-2 & would also like to attend the Porsche or Barber driving school. I took the BMW school in a z4. It was great! The driving school cds are very helpful for general information but nothing is like track time! The Porsche must have a specific technique due to its rear engine. A school dealing only with the 911 would be very useful.
  • chile96chile96 Posts: 330
    Skip Barber uses the boxster, 911 and cayenne so it's not focused on the rear engine driving capabilities except for the track experience
  • The new issue of Excellence has a nice review of a base, non 'S" Cab in fly yellow. They make some interesting points about options. They say that for a lot of people the base car makes more sense because the 18" wheels handle much better (I think they used the words, "suspension being tuned better" or something to that effect) than the larger 19" S wheels, they ride better and have less road noise. They continued their comments on options saying that the $2000+ nav is one of the more inferior ones out there, they thought that the roof antenna for $140 was curious but might be OK for those in marginal AM areas, the Bose was OK for $1300, and that the heated seats for under $500 were the best deal on the Porsche option list. Curiously enough they recommended the $140 fire extinguisher not because it necessarily was going to be useful, but , well, it was a Porsche fire extinguisher.

    I don't expect everyone (or even, most) to agree with me, but the more I analyze buying a 997 the more it seems that the fewer the options the better. A "4"? Who needs it? You lose trunk space, gain weight, and you just know you aren't going to go out in the middle of winter in a 997 anyway. Sport exhaust? Come on, what is this, the high school parking lot? Embossed head rests? Yep, so now everyone will know and ask for a raise. Lighted door sills? What is this, an assisted living facilty?

    YMMV
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I agree with you 100% - base 911 with no options is the way to go.

    The only option I would say is worthwhile is PASM - and even then, I'd be more inclined to spend that money on aftermarket Bilstein PSS9s instead.

    Oh yeah, if the ceramic brakes were $800 instead of $8000, I'd get them too.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sirs:

    An opinion well stated, however on this forum you should be advised to put on your flack jacket. The fir is about to fly. My position on the issue of options is that since the individual buying the car is paying for them, let him be the judge of whether they are worth the buck given the bang. I am hardly ready for " Excellence " or for that matter any write to make a choice for me when it's my dime. Well, except for GT Purely Porsche... they are the crystal word when it comes to Porsche. A bit highly priced for a mag..but it is the best. ( Oh no! an opinion...)

    Chromedome
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I think you/anyone should test drive the cars and judge for themselves things like handling and ride, rather than take any review as the final word.

    For example, on the articles assessment,

    "the 18" wheels handle much better (I think they used the words, "suspension being tuned better" or something to that effect) than the larger 19" S wheels,"

    I would be tempted to call that a foolish statement. Before getting a 911S, I spent a lot of seat time in numerous Boxster S's, about half with the standard 18" wheels and half with the 19" optional "Carerra S" wheels. I'd challenge almost anyone to tell the difference from driving in a non track environment. BUT, for those that also had PASM, switching between normal and sport modes was immediately noticable.

    When I decided to go with the 911, I focused primarily on the "S" model, but still had a few test drives in the base model. Same conclusion. I could not tell any tire specific ride or handling difference between a base 911 w/ 18" wheels and an S with 19" wheels and the PASM set on "normal". If anything, the S was more dental-filling friendly. But switch the PASM to "sport", and everything firmed up significantly. If the Excellence reviewers think that a base, non PASM 911 can carve up a smoth road or take a highway on ramp like a PASM equiped S model set on sport, then they need to explain how they drive.

    Whether a buyer wants to limit their cost and go after a limitedly optioned base 911 is a personal decision and one I would fully respect. But I think Excellences assessment of it being a better riding and handling car isn't just disingenuous, it's plain wrong. But don't take my word on it, do the comparison yourself.
  • I'd have to call and raise habitat1's response.

    If the guys (or gals) at Excellence think that a base 911 outhandles a 911S, they need to get different jobs. I'm not just saying this because I happen to own a 2007 911S coupe. My brother is a former Porsche racing team member and still is actively involved with the company. It is widely accepted among his engineer friends and serious 911 drivers that one of the single biggest advancements from the 996 to the 997 is the availability of PASM. Which you don't get as standard equipment on the base 911. Singling out 18" vs. 19" wheels and tires is rather meaningless when an "S" model rides 1/2" lower and has a highly advanced adjustable suspension. PASM is even used in the 997 GT3, in spite of a moderate weight gain, so you know its the best Porsche has to offer in handling advancement.

    And, no offense to Cab owners, but any real test of handling needs to be done on a coupe. So between testing a "speed" yellow base Cab and then suggesting that a Porsche fire extinguisher is a must have "logo" option, I think these guys (or gals) left their credibility with the sports pages in the powder room before going to work that day. If you get my drift. ;)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I also believe that the "S" with PASM is the way to go, and after careful comparisons it's the way I went with my '07 Carrera S Cab (in speed yellow, BTW).

    I question any reviewers preference for less power found in the base unit. Additionally, the PASM in the "S" gives a very nice choice, IMO, that is instantly noticeable between normal and sport modes. Personally, I like the "S" wheels better, but when it comes to subjective matters, there are lots of choices that should be personal.

    Blckislandguy, you should test for yourself as others here have said. I would be willing to bet however that you will recognize and want the advantages of the "S" variant and that you will also like the PASM.

    Good luck!

    TagMan
  • Only get the options that make you happy. The bi-xenon headlights are wonderful. The tire pressure indicator is std for 07.Spend the extra $$ on driving classes!With Porsche, you can order the car with any option package.
  • I have only had my C2 since October. The basic problem in driving the car fast in a high speed corner is that the steering gets very light. If you hit a bump in the pavement while cornering it scares the ... out of you. I don't think PASM,19" wheels or "S" helps with this problem. I asked a club driving instructor about this issue and he told me that you will get used to it & push on the gas.Any comments,opinions or advice?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,520
    You could probably adjust the front end and/or modify it to control that better...it's what they call "bump steer". I'd imagine larger wheels would amplify that problem somewhat but I'm not sure.

    here's more than you ever wanted to know about it. Is this what you're experiencing?

    Bump Steer Explained

    MODERATOR

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I have only had my C2 since October. The basic problem in driving the car fast in a high speed corner is that the steering gets very light. If you hit a bump in the pavement while cornering it scares the ... out of you. I don't think PASM,19" wheels or "S" helps with this problem. I asked a club driving instructor about this issue and he told me that you will get used to it & push on the gas.Any comments,opinions or advice?

    I know the sensation you are describing. It can be quite unnerving. Relax, there is nothing wrong with your car. It is an inherent characteristic of the car, not necessarily a bad one, but one to become more familiar with and overcome.

    Before trading it in on the C2, I had an '06 Limited Edition Lotus Elise Sport with both Sport Pack and Track Pack, and its cornering, even over bumps, felt like a slot car, as though the car was literally glued to the road. Quite amazing, frankly, and almost nothing is quite like it at any price.

    That feeling of being "glued to the road" does indeed fade away from the C2's front end when cornering at high speed, particularly when the road has any bumps. Don't let that sensation freak you out, because your instructor is correct. Stay with the throttle and the car will in fact reward you by tracking correctly around the turn... up to realistic limits of course, so beware!

    It can be difficult to wrestle down that sensation, but if you have a place to practice, I'm willing to bet you will overcome it.

    TagMan
  • Yep, next time order your 997 with the extended cab option, sometimes call the "high speed sweeper, enhanced Yankee edition" option. It adds 6" to the wheel base and makes the car much more stable on any roads north of the Mason Dixon line.

    Seriously, I think that more than anything else, the short wheel base is the problem. I have an F150 Supercab with 139" of wheelbase (I don't think that Conrail has locomotves with this much wb) and nothing is going to deflect it from its mission.
  • Not to change the subject, but have any of you afficianados heard any time frame for the introduction of the new transmission on the 911? I have heard everything from this Spring to not until the 2009 models come out. Does anyone have any inside information?

    Thanks
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    My dealer believes the DSG will be available in some 2008 models, but unlikely before that. He also believes that it will eventually replace the Tiptronic completely, rather than be a third choice. He used to work at the factory, so his past predictions have been pretty accurate.
  • Do you know when the 2008 911 S Turbo models will become available for order?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    The response to that Excellence article is an example of how rumors get started and snowball into something that doesn’t exist. They never said the base non-PASM 911 on 18” tires handles better or that the engine is better or that this was even a comparo with the S. It said the car has admirable qualities or “charms”. With regard to the 18s and suspension, the writer said it is more predictable. However you MUST consider that he also recommended 19s with PASM—that’s the better handling setup. He also compared the base cab with “its true marketplace rivals”, the SL500, 650ci, and XK8 convertibles, calling it more fun to drive.

    Read between the lines. There’s no need to trash Pete Stout and Excellence.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Redsoxgirl… PASM has its detractors among plenty of track rats and professional critics. Most critics fall short of slamming Porsche for it, but it is referred to practically everywhere as refinement in a negative sense. IMO it has helped insulate the driver from the road. Feedback just isn’t the way it was on the older ones. Stout’s comparison of the 997 GT3 to the 996 GT3 in the same April issue of Excellence pretty much sums it up. And the second opinion in the sidebar by Johannes van Overbeek also criticizes PASM even though both writers give the 997 the nod.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    D-Man - Thanks for the clarification.

    Good job reading between the lines!

    TagMan
  • My mistake in criticizing blackislandguy's summary of the Excellence article before reading it myself. There were some rather liberal interpretations of what was actually stated in the post I had responded to.

    However, just to balance out your statements...

    "PASM has its detractors among plenty of track rats and professional critics. Most critics fall short of slamming Porsche for it, but it is referred to practically everywhere as refinement in a negative sense. IMO it has helped insulate the driver from the road. Feedback just isn’t the way it was on the older ones."

    My brother, who I previously indicated still has a professional relationship with Porsche, and his racing team friends, would generally disagree with your statements and those of the Excellence editors. I won't get into a [non-permissible content removed] for tat debate, since much of what we would be debating is subjective in nature and I'd only be repeating his opinions. But what isn't as subjective are track times. My brother has bested his best lap times in a 996 GT3 by over 2 seconds in the 997 GT3 at Barber Motorsport Park. Notwithstanding the power increase, he would attribute at least some of that to PASM.

    I do appreciate what you claim to be the "feedback". But, IMHO the non-PASM 996 isn't the 911 to get nostalgic about. The air cooled 993 is.
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