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Porsche 911

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  • pabs1pabs1 Posts: 15
    Thanks for the info, I'll do that when my Porsche arrives.
  • tripftripf Posts: 8
    I have placed an order for a 2006 997 C2S. It appears there are no changes to the 2005 model except for a bump in base price. The option MSRPs appear to be the same as 2005. The dealer has not been able to provide any formal information on the 2006 model. Build is scheduled for September with October delivery. Dealer informed me that my order is "in production". Does anyone have any access to 2006 C2S specs?

    When does the plant assembly shift to 2006? If there are no changes in the specs, then this is probably a mute point and I get to pay about $1800 extra for the privilege of a 2006 VIN.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,116
    We're having an interesting Porsche discussion over on the News & Views Board, mostly about Porsche business success as reported by Forbes Magazine.

    Inevitably though, the subject of competing cars comes up, and so here's my question, if you would indulge my curiousity (I have my OWN answer already but I'd like to hear yours).

    Why did you choose a 997 rather than a considerably less expensive Corvette, which can put up similar or better "numbers" regarding acceleration and handling?

    Please let me know if there were other factors in your decision besides performance, and what those might be, and if you actually looked at or drove a Corvette.

    This is just for my curiosity, I'm not collected data or anything. I'd like to see if we think alike or differently on this matter.

    You may also include other cars you considered prior to deciding upon a 997.

    thanks very much!

    Shifty a Visiting Host

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,368
    If you get the same deal on the '06 as the '05... Meaning.. that your actual purchase price is only $1800 more... you should be very happy..

    If you sell any time in the next five years, I'd say the '06 will probably bring $5K more than a comparable '05 with the same mileage..

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • pabs1pabs1 Posts: 15
    Hello,
    I ordered a 997S C back in April for an August/September Delivery and it is a 2006 Model, So your will be too.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    The "numbers" you refer to don't begin to measure quality or refinement. In my opinion, Porsche is near the top of that ladder and Chevrolet is near the bottom.

    For some, "quantity" is the holy grail. I have a golfing buddy who proudly talks about his new 7,000 square foot ex-urban house with 8 bedrooms, 6+ bathrooms and 4 car garage on a 1.5 acre lot. And that's exactly the way he describes it. But in my eyes it's a big brick faced, vinyl sided box with virtually no architectual character inside or out. Not to mention that it sits in a tract subdivision of other big boxes all built in the last 3 years by a national homebuilder that I happen to know cuts more corners than Michael Schumaker in a Formula 1 race.

    We, on the other hand, are looking to build a much smaller custom 4-5 bedroom Arts & Crafts bungalow, with stone, slate, mahogony, architectural shingles, and top of the line craftsmanship and details, on a less than 1/4 acre lot in a real in-fill neighborhood that has vintage homes dating back to the 1890's. The construction costs of our home will be approximately 4 times the cost per square foot that the mega-box costs to build. My buddy probably thinks I'm nuts for paying that much to build a "little" house on a "little" lot. I, on the other hand, couldn't imagine trading off an architectually distinguished home in a real neighborhood for a 7,000 s.f. big box in Tim-buk-tu.

    Everyone has their own value system, budget and priorities. For some, the new 997 offers the quality and refinement that they are willing to pay for. Others may look no further than the "numbers" and think the Corvette is a deal by comparison. But if I look closely at how the Corvette and Porsche 997 are engineered and built, the quality of their interiors, the fit and finish of the exteriors, and "how" they drive and handle, not just their 0-60 or skidpad "numbers" - it's easy for me to see a huge difference.

    I haven't made a final decision to buy a 2006 997 Cab S yet. But if I don't go with it, I will likely end up with a Boxster S. Even another Honda S2000 is a (very) remote possibility. But not a Corvette. Quality and refinement have always been more important to me than "the numbers". And yes, I did drive a Corvette about a year ago just to confirm that I hadn't missed any revolutionary changes in the Chevy approach to a sports car. I hadn't.
  • mbrady1mbrady1 Posts: 13
    I am considering purchasing a 2003 Targa, I don't know why this vehicle is not more popular that it its. What are the major pitfalls to the Targa?
  • tripftripf Posts: 8
    In my opinion there is a significant difference in quality as well as overall performance. While it may be argued that the C6 has come a long way in other than straight line performance, it just does not have the same level of performance. In terms of finish and long term quality: drive a vette with 50K miles and a carrera with the same mileage. No comparison.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,116
    I guess the targa has always suffered from a bad rap...some say that this design compromises structural integrity, and some say that over time you're gonna have leaks and squeeks. I have no personal experience with the newer cars only the older ones and the targas were certainly a bit of a problem. Personally the soft top with removable hardtop is a configuration that looks more attractive to me.

    What feedback exactly have you been getting on the '03 targa?

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • pabs1pabs1 Posts: 15
    Hello,
    The dealer just sent me an emailsaying : that all 2006 cayennes have the MP3, but he is not sure about the 2006 997S. When you were refering about this subject, you meant 2006 997S.

    Thanks
  • mbrady1mbrady1 Posts: 13
    Nothing as yet, I've just started looking, and there is an 03 at a local dealer. I read on the forum here that there is some question as to whether the 997 will include a targa model. Is this a fact or just speculation?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,116
    Various websites that I can't link to (they have competing auto forums, which are verboten here) show spys photos of what appear to be a 997 targa. You can try googling it.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • I have driven all three over the last week and here are some impressions if they help others.

    Boxster S -- was most fun to drive -- pure joy. Quick, precise shifting, and handled very, very well. Downside for me as an avid golfer is a very small trunk and also some noise on the highway (e.g. truck tire noise goes right through the top even when up). Golf clubs fit if you take them out of the bag, but you have to spend some time working it which seems like a hassle on a day to day basis. Otherwise for the money, this would be my choice.

    Corvette -- was noticably faster, quieter and more comfortable with plenty of storage room for 2 golf bags in either coupe or just barely in convertible (with top up). Excellent value, many more options for the money than the Boxster e.g. Nav, power seats. Negative impression was manual transmision which was not nearly as precise and therefore somewhat stressful for me to drive, though I would probably get used to it. Also nav system which was not operable while driving (?) or maybe I could not figure it out. Driving position gave me less confidence; even though it's actually slightly smaller than a 911, the low position and style make it harder to see around in tight situations. My wife felt nervous with all the speed and less precision.

    911 felt very refined while driving, an absolutely gorgeous car inside and out. Having owned one of these before, there is nothing that feels the same. It's not that it's better, certainly not justified for the money, it's just different.

    We have narrowed it down to a 2005 911 or a 2004 C4S Cab. We saw a 2004 C4S today and my wife liked its appearance very much with the cool turbo body parts. But the dealer wants $104-108K for a used C4S because they only made 1500 of them and a brandy new 2005 Cab S costs about the same.

    So if anyone has advice on which of those to go with I would appreciate it. The dealer was advising to go with the C4S which he had in stock because of better future resale value due to rarity. Same engine as 2005 320 horse and 4wd.

    Thank you

    We have narrowed it down to
  • nattybnattyb Posts: 7
    Amen. I like the house/corvette analogy.
    A question for the community:
    I'm buying my first Porsche and love the 997. I've narrowed it down to two cars:

    1) A pre-owned 2005 C2S w/ 1800 miles; or
    2) A 2006 C4S

    The difference in price on a 42 month lease is about $300 per month.
    And the C2S doesn't have the sports seats that I would get in a new build, but otherwise has the exact same options I'd get.
    I live in the Northeast, and I can definitely see benefits to the C4S, but I like cash flow as much as the next guy.
    Any perspective?
    Thanks.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Are you NUTS????. $104k-$108k for a USED C4S?? (vs. a "brandy" new 2005 Cab S)

    Your dealer must think you are a rich fool with the "value due to rarity" pitch. In every conceivable way the new 997 911 Cab is a better car than the 2004 C4S. Engineering, performance, interior quality, exterior styling, etc. And that's the base 997. Jump to the 2005 997 "S" version and you are that much further above the 2004 C4S.

    I don't have personal ownership experience with the 911 (yet) but have picked the brain of a friend of ours who has owned a minimum of 2-3 Porsches at all times since about 1975. His current two are a pristine classic 356 and a 2003 911 Twin Turbo coupe w/X50. In one of our past discussions, he strongly discouraged me from considering the C4. It's one thing to have AWD to help put 450+ horsepower to the pavement, but in the standard coupe or cabriolet, it adds weight, up front expense, maintenance and repair costs and does not significantly improve the performance unless you like driving in the rain. Some (he) would say it is a net negative to the overall performance and "feel" of the 320 hp 996 911.

    If you want to buy something rare, I suggest a Dali or Picasso. If you want to buy a sports car for $100k+/-, the 997 Cab S is by far the superior choice, IMO. And long before you think about peeing $104k+ away on a used C4S, check out the prices on used 911 TT Cabriolets. For not much/any more money, you could impress your wife with a real Twin Turbo, not just a C4S with "cool turbo body parts". ;)

    P.S. In your assessment of the Boxster S, I had little difficulty getting my Calloway bag in the rear trunk without taking the clubs out. It also can be ordered with PCM 2.1 (Navigation system included), although not too many are stock ordered that way.
    I
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    nattyb,

    I'll repeat the disclosure that I do not personally own a 911 (yet), but have researching the heck out of it and picking the brain of several friends and associates with Porsche 911 experience.

    We live in the DC and have a second home in PA. I have been advised against the AWD system in the non-turbo versions of the 911, for the reasons listed in my post above: added weight, less nible feel and handling, higher expense, added maintenance and potential repair costs. And adding the AWD, but keeping the ultra high performance low profile summer tires will not help much with winter performance. By the time you add the cost of another set of winter wheels and snow tires to the mix, you could have leased a Honda Pilot for those 42 months to have as a backup vehicle.

    Also, not sure where you are located or what dealer you are working with, but after the initial (no discounting) response I got a couple of months ago, I can now custom order a 2006 911 base or "S" for November delivery at $3,000 to $4,000+ off MSRP. Keep that in mind when negotiating the price of a 2005 pre-owned C2S.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,368
    If you want to buy something rare, I suggest a Dali or Picasso

    No way.. I hear that Dali guy is painting like crazy... they will be all over the place..

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  • I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to car values. I'm quite aware that the technology is better in the 997, but the rarity of a Porsche has more to do with resale value than the technology. Depreciation is by far the largest expense in owning a modern sports car. Check out the resale prices of 911's on the net over the years. Those with low production have best maintained their resale value, some have even appreciated over MSRP. Low mileage air cooled cars from 1996 which are rare anymore are selling for more than 996's 5 years newer which have "better technology."

    And yes, my friend, 2004 C4S's routinely sell for more money than 997 Cab S's, so I must not be the only rich fool out there who likes the unique look of the car. You can buy slightly used Cab S's on ebay right now for $90K, soon to be $85K when the 06's come out; try to find a C4S in similar condition for the same.

    So that's why buying a rarer 911 can be wiser in the long run than buying a less expensive Boxster which is produced in much higher volumes and depreciates like a normal car.

    But you do what you want, I guess it's better to be a rich fool than just a fool.
    ;)
  • nattybnattyb Posts: 7
    Thanks very much. That's great advice. In fact, I was thinking of doing exactly as you say and getting a backup Honda Pilot for snow and my little ones.
  • s4to911s4to911 Posts: 12
    yes, I meant all of the late 05 and all 06 997 non-S and S have CD head units that read MP3s
  • s4to911s4to911 Posts: 12
    Have you actually driven a 2005 S Cab and a 2004 C4S Cab back to back? I have, and I own a 2005 S Cab. Interestingly, I asked my Porsche salesman about it as well, and he agreed completely--he would even take an 2005 S Cab over a 2004 Turbo Cab, which I found surprising.

    It is an entirely different experience driving a 997 than a 996, from the apperance of better fit and finish in the 2005 to better handling and acceleration. A lot of this is subjective, so if you drive both and like the 996, then get it.

    One thing that is interesting to hear is talk about resale value and "rarity." Look, we are all dropping close to or above $90-100K for these cars, from what I hope for many if not most of us is very disposable income (this car to me is really an extreme luxury). This is a purchase with your heart, not your head.

    It is never a wise business decision to invest in a depreciating asset. Sure, a rare Porsche may be worth more in the future--provided you keep it pristine in your garage and never drive it, so there is no damage, dings, stone chip marks, etc when you sell it.

    If you need to feel like you are making an investment to make you feel better about the purchase, OK, go with it--but there are better ways to make money, as I am sure you know.

    I bought this car to drive it--period. Its a Porsche, so I think I won't get totally killed on the resale. The joy I have driving it is worth every bit of depreciation that I am going to take.
  • love2skicar1,

    Sorry to jump on, but it appears to me that YOU don't know what you are talking about in this instance and, rich or not, you would be foolish to come even close to paying $100k+ for a used 2004 C4S Cab.

    First, there is nothing particularly "rare" about a 2004 C4S other than the number of buyers that wanted to buy one new. Porsche increased its production capacity with the 996 model and could have produced as many of its 911's in AWD format as the demand warranted. The fact is that most Porsche purists don't want an AWD 911, especially the 996 base model with only 320 horsepower. To claim the C4S is rare because of anything other than limited demand is simply incorrect.

    Second, while it is true that some Porsche purists have bid up the price of late model air cooled 993's, there is no love affair with the 996. It's neither as "pure" as the 993, nor nearly as good as the new 997. I personally agree with S4to911, I would choose the 997 S Cab over the 996 Turbo Cab. I would trade off 0.5 seconds 0-60 for the upgraded interior, better handling and other refinements.

    Third, if you really want a used 2004 C4S Cab, shop around. I believe the price for a pristine one with under 5,000 miles should be closer to $75,000 - $80,000. I was in DC earlier this year and saw one at Select Auto Imports for around that price. They are reputable, as one of my business partners has bought his last two cars from them.

    Finally, don't kid yourself with the economics of buying a "rare" car.. You want to talk really rare?? I owned a 1979 BMW M1. BMW's Motorsport Group made a grand total of 455 of these over a 4 year period of time. I sold the mine in 1983 (we were moving out of the country) for $55,000. I put $50,000 of the sales price into an investment account subject to an agreement with my wife that it would be available for a future sports car purchase when we returned. That fund, as of yesterday's stock market close, is now worth exactly $2,134,557.80. That's a compounded annual return of 18.6%. I have purchased several sports cars in the interim 22 years out of other discretionary funds, but decided to keep the "sports car" fund intact as a lesson to our kids of the importance of saving and the value of compounding (not to mention a pretty good fund manager).

    If you really like the 2004 C4S more than the 2005 997 S, that is certainly your perogative. But I do think you are being shnookered into thinking you are getting something that you are not, and potentially paying an extremely inflated price for it. I hope at least that you shop around a bit more.
  • pabs1pabs1 Posts: 15
    Thanks so much.
    I guess I have to tell my Salesperson to be aware of the fact that Late models 05 and 06 997 and 997 S have an MP3 capability
    Again, Thanks for the info.
  • You are very confident anyone paying $100K for a C4S is foolish, so go ahead and do a simple search on ebay or autotrader and tell us what you find. If you can find a reasonably equipped C4S for $75-80K TODAY (vs. winter) with 4K miles, then I suggest you buy it and sell it the next day, because you'll do even better than you did in your investment account. The lowest I found on ebay or autotrader was $94K for a car with fewer options and more miles.

    The reason for the discrepancy is that you have to take into account options (and mileage) when valuing a Porsche (and other cars like classic Corvettes) because they influence the supply demand equation. The car in question has ceramic brakes ($8K), navigation ($3K), full leather, carbon fiber interior, special wheels, sports exhaust ($1K), power memory seats, and 4K miles so that accounts for the higher price vs. more normally equipped, higher mileage version. A car with fewer options and just a few more thousand miles would be worth significantly less.

    I give up..the only person who added to this question was the person who had driven them back to back. It's hard to find dealers with both models in stock at the same time so that information was helpful, so thank you.

    Still waiting for the $75-80K C4S ;)
  • I don't need to search autotrader or e-bay to find out what the "asking" prices are on a used C4S. Rather, I suggest you call some reputable Porsche dealerships and ask them to tell you what they would give you in actual trade value for the C4S you are considering.

    I also don't need to be reminded that options and mileage need to be taken into account when valuing a Porsche. And I assume, as a previous 911 owner, that you don't need to be told that the resale value of $8k ceramic brakes on a car that isn't going to see a lot of serious track time is potentially a negative, due to the very high cost of maintenance and potential repairs (chipped rotors are $3k +/-).

    Your previous posts had suggested that you had driven both cars, acknowledged that the 997 was superior in both performance and refinement, but you were being "advised" by the dealer to pay $104k+ for a used 996 C4S because it is "rare". Isn't he nice, watching out for your financial interests? I was simply trying to give you a more objective assessment, since I don't make a fat commission regardless of what you decide. Good luck either way.
  • is I've driven lots of 911s over the years and as yet haven't had one of my own, so I'm just about ready to take the leap. I'd really like a Carrera S, but I'm wondering if the extra $10K or so is really worth it?

    Help!
  • bsumnerbsumner Posts: 39
    It really depends on what you want. If you are looking for more of a street car (and if you aren't price insensitive), then I'd recommend the straight Carrera. The additional features on the S (PASM, 30 bhp, 19" wheels) cost $10k and are more of a hindrance (in the case of the 19" wheels) on a daily basis or irrelevant (PASM/less than 10% bhp increase) unless you are taking the car to the limit.

    For all but the most extreme driving:
    --the 19" wheels reduce comfort significantly and unnecessarily increase expense (upfront price, tire wear and replacement cost). [as an aside, when is the wheel size inflation going to end?]
    --PASM isn't necessary--and only makes the already stiff suspension stiffer

    Furthermore, a 30 bhp jump is pretty meager for a "S" badge . . .

    However, if you plan to take it to the track, then I'd consider the S . . .

    From my personal perspective, I am spending my $$ on traction--and thus have ordered a 911 Carrera 4. It feels like a much better use of $6k--better wet weather traction and the wide rear fenders.

    It is unclear to me whether the S or straight Carrera will hold its value better . . . they seem to be making them in equal proportions. And, frankly, I don't care since I will either lease and turn mine in . . . or keep it for 20 years. This is a minor point at best.

    Enjoy your test driving either way!

    Regards.
  • Many thanks for your response--plenty of good points to ponder. For me, I think the straight Carrera sounds like the better alternative. As it is, either will probably be parked in my living room as I've been waiting a looooooong time to get one.

    I've also been thinking BMW M3 which is a lot of fun too. Decisions, decisions.

    If you have any other thoughts, they'd be much appreciated

    Again, thanks for your time and info
  • bsumnerbsumner Posts: 39
    You're welcome. Gratified to hear you found my musings thoughtful.

    2 responses:

    1. I find that people are often very unrealistic as to what they are buying cars for and what they really need--and fall into the marketing spin. E.g., some people have their Carreras' brake calipers painted red to make them look like those of the Carrera S/Turbo. Or have them painted yellow to look like PCCB. When one is living in this zip code, one has seriously lost perspective--and totally bought into Porsche's carefully stratified caste system. When you consider that a base 997 is one of the quickest, most capable vehicles on the road, how important is it to have the best/fastest/etc. And at what cost (and profit to Stuttgart)?

    2. M3 vs. 997: Fundamentally different class of car. It really depends on what you are willing to spend. I had the same decision and decided that I wanted no compromises in car (but that means that hauling my golf clubs in it will be a pain). Accordingly, pick your compromises. A very fast and somewhat convenient car vs. a sports car that compromises convenience.

    Regards.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Reasonable people can dissagree, as is the case of me and bsumner.

    I do agree that the base Carrera is a fine car that would satisfy most. However, after driving the 2005 Boxster S with and without PASM (and sport chrono), I noticed the difference and, given the choice, would order it on the 911. The "normal" mode can be manually selected and is virtually identical in comfort to the non-PASM car. But when the roads are smooth and you want the tighter, firmer feel, that sport button is nice, IMO.

    The 19" wheels are mostly aesthetic, but the tires are not significantly more expense or have less treadwear life than the base Carrer's 18" wheels according to the guys I spoke with at the Tire Rack. In the Boxster S's I tested, I could barely notice any difference in comfort between the 18" and 19", with the 19" PASM one set on "normal" mode.

    The other two standard features of the Carrera S are mandatory, IMO - Xenon lights and sport steering wheel.

    So, when you add up the cost of the aforementioned options that come standard on the Carrera S, they equate to roughly half of the $10k difference in the base price. Is the extra 30 hp worth an additional $5k? I haven't test driven the 911 and 911S back to back, but from those I've talked to that have, they would claim the difference feels like a lot more than 30 hp. In fact, one of our friends who owns a 2003 911TT claims that the 997 911 S is almost as quick.

    On the C2 vs. C4 issue, I'm again of the other opinion that carting around an extra 200+ lbs in a sports car for occasionally better rain performance, but a heavier, less nimble feel all of the time is not a trade off I would make. I'll slow down in the rain and not drive in the snow at all.

    All of these opinions are purely subjective. However, if you would end up ordering a 911 base with many of the options that come standard on the S, I'd think the S might be worth the incremental difference at that point.
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