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Porsche 911

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  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    In that case, I'm curious as to what would be the value - retail and wholesale - that you would estimate for my 2005 911 S Cab:

    12,700 miles
    Seal Gray / Black
    Excellent condition w/ new rear tires
    Options (totaled $13k+): Nav, Sport exhaust, full leather seats, power seats, heated seats, Bose, 6CD, self dim mirrors, aluminum Carrera S sill plates, Porsche crest in headrests, colored wheel crests, mats.

    Thanks in advance.
  • vwguild1vwguild1 Posts: 98
    Interesting how Edmunds & Kelley vary on the numbers...The Manheim auction site shows no option for the Cab...

    KBB does not book things that are unique to Porsche like Sport Exhaust, X51 Power kits. PCCBs, Crest in headrest, sill plates, etc. but they show a Retail Value of $82,800. $74,750.00 is Wholesale

    Edmunds offers uniques options, although not Porsche Design stuff and shows a value of $84,167.00 if the C2S Cab is Certified...$79K and change if not...$70,602 would be their
    Trade In/Wholesale #.

    So you can see these numbers can be all over the map...Again, it depends upon the the car, the market & the Dealer....sorry about not getting Auction numbers though, for that is really the common denominator and puts the other numbers in a better perspective...The auction numbers are fact; the others are based on an applied theory.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    I read recently (and agree) that a Cayenne with a stick would be a lot of fun and involving. A RI Porsche sales guy dismisses the idea of a stick in a Cayenne by pointing to the car's weight. I think though it would be a blast. If you kept the options simple (Bose, metallic, heated seats, etc.) you would be well under 50K for a transaction price.

    Incidentally, I have a heated wheel and it throws off minimal heat. Given that it doesn't work (there isn't even a switch to turn it on, let alone increase the temp) you might consider the wood wheel. Pass on the turbo or any other wheel option and just pick them up off Ebay with winter tires already mounted.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,013
    Kelley numbers are what the dealer would like to get for the car

    Edmunds numbers are what people would hope to pay for the car

    Auction numbers are what dealers pay for cars they will make a profit on (hopefully).

    So in that light, all three numbers make sense.

    KBB- bargain hard on these numbers

    Edmunds--try for private party value or lower

    auction-- generally cheaper than you can buy one on the street.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • Well I finally pulled the trigger and bought the 2004 Anniversary edition Carrera. The salesman whispered to me that the car would be a chick magnet. If by chick magnet he meant that a guy in a cube van wanted to trade my car for his van and the contents, then the sales guy was right. First day, I put 130 miles on the car. I absolutely love it. Much nicer than the 2004 M3 I owned a couple of years ago.

    Back to my question. Can you please let me know how you wash your cars. I live in an apartment (corporate housing) and can't wash mine by hand. The dealer has free washes on the weekend but it is a automatic car wash with the fabric strips that beat your car to death.

    Thanks
  • tgenoyertgenoyer Posts: 4
    anyone knows when to expect the 2008 models?
    Thanks
  • bpm69bpm69 Posts: 10
    ok. 2007 targa s.
    My local dealer doesn't have a color or transmission that I want, but may be able to find one I would want at another dealer.
    Does that impact my ability to negotiate on price, and how much should I expect to pay under the MSRP given that it's not in his inventory?
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "but may be able to find one I would want at another dealer."

    I think YOU should try to find one at another dealer, first. Every dealer's inventory is on the web and you can search all of the dealers (up to 300 mile radius) of your zip code. Try other zip codes if you need to.

    In September 2005, I found a C2S Cab at a Baltimore dealer that ended up giving me a $10k discount. I worked directly with the sales manager. After the purchase, he indicated that, had a DC area dealer called him on the car on my behalf, the best I would have ended up with was half that discount. DC area dealers were much more greedy at the time and there would be more commissions to pay in a dealer swap transaction. If your local dealer is offering you a great discount, maybe the difference wouldn't be as great, but you don't need to add them as a middle man if you don't want to.

    Also, I have been very impressed with the service / follow-up I've received from both the selling dealer and my closest local dealer. It seems as though Porsche NA is committed to making sure your service experience is good, regardless of where you bought the car. I have been told by a friend who is a lobbyist/consultant for Porsche that they are committed to keeping their top ranking over Lexus as #1 in customer satisfaction.

    Good luck.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "Can you please let me know how you wash your cars. I live in an apartment (corporate housing) and can't wash mine by hand."

    You need to expand your social network to include friends who have a single family home with a hose bib. ;)

    Good friend of mine who lived in a condo faced the same dilemma. He bought a black Mercedes, just as the condo association banned car washing. He came over one Saturday with a Venti sized Starbucks cafe mocha and a bag of bagels for my wife and kids. It became a once or twice a month get together until he moved to California (to a San Francisco brownstone with a hose bib!).

    I'm surprised a Porsche dealer has the car wash with the fabric strips. I don't think you can take convertibles through those (no soap on the top). Both my Porsche dealer and Acura dealer provide free hand washes with service, but even then, I prefer to do it myself.

    If you are in the DC area, you are welcome to stop by with coffee and bagels!
  • That's too funny. I appreciate the offer but Las Vegas is a bit of a drive. The salesman told me there were hand washes but when I was poking around the dealer waiting for delivery, much to my "horror" I saw the automatic car wash with strips. Maybe he meant he would hand wash it. Funny thing, I've been in Vegas 5 months and it has rained roughly 3 times. The third time is about 2 days after I bought the porsche. Frustration.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I realize that if you are "sold" on getting a Targa, then this post is no help to you. But, if you are open to a suggestion, then consider these points.

    The Targa S price is too high to begin with, IMO. You are much better off with a Coupe or Cab, IMO. The beautiful Coupe will get you the best price, but the Cab is the true open air car that the Targa can never come close to, and you can get a deal on a Coupe or a Cab. Any "deal" on a Targa S will usually be more limited.

    Consider that most recent reviews have finally acknowledged that the Targa roof panel's motor box blocks a significant percentage of rear visibility when in the open position... hardly worth having to pay extra for that issue. If you don't believe this, see it for yourself before making your final decision.

    From a personal perspective, the Cab S is the way to go. When open, it's just right, without a lot of turbulence inside the cabin. If you need to minimize the wind altogether, the windows can be rolled up and the rear wind screen put in position, and the result is amazingly calm inside the cabin, even at high speeds. And even when it's chilly outside, the heater can easily overcome that outside chill. When necessary for the top to be closed, it takes mere seconds and the push of a single button.

    Admittedly, I live in California, so I can put the top down most of the year, except for those cold rainy winter days. But there are folks all across the country that enjoy the Cab just as much. IMO, there's nothing quite like a convertible sports car, especially when it's a Porsche Carrera S.

    But, if a convertible is just out of the question for you, the Coupe is a cleaner approach, IMO, than the Targa, at a much better price. So, before you plunk down your green on the Targa, I suggest that you give the Coupe or the Cab S some greater consideration... and you will likely get that "deal" you are after with the color and transmission you want as well.

    TagMan
  • It's all in the eye of the beholder. My view is that the Targa strikes the perfect balance between coupe and cab. And it's also much less common so you get a decent wow factor and should help resale (just guessing there). Of course, being less common means paying more $$, as you mentioned.

    Is it expensive? Yes, and I would have bought a Targa S if that was available (without the 4). So I chose the Targa 4S over the Carrera S. Though the Carrera S is a slightly better pure sports car (lighter, a tad quicker, etc) I am more of a modest driver than taking it out on the track. Is it worth a $7,500 premium (T4S vs C4S)? For me it is because of the "less common" factor. But to some people, its not. Bottom line is that the 911 has something for everyone!

    Ken

    p.s. yes, it does partially block the rear view. It's disappointing but enough to make me change my mind.

    p.p.s. Cab not very helpful to me in Chicago! ;)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Regarding the Targa...

    the 911 has something for everyone!

    Yes, Ken, I completely agree, of course. (Well, almost... I wouldn't mind a GT3 Cabriolet!... but that's sort of a contradiction of terms.)

    My view is that the Targa strikes the perfect balance between coupe and cab.

    Well... I see this a little differently and if you will indulge me here... I actually see the Targa as more of its own independent body style. The reason I say this is that it is absolutely nothing like a convertible in any way whatsoever, and the idea that it is even partially like one is really more of a "selling point". More realistically, however, it has its own unique open air top that is akin to the "panaramic" sunroofs that are beginning to be more common options in cars recently... essentially just larger sunroofs, but nothing even remotely wide open like a convertible. The Coupe's sunroof is somewhat dwarfed by the Targa's roof, but then again, the Coupe has the cleanest body lines of all three body styles, without the clutter of the Targa's interior shade motor housing and the exterior trim. Now, some like that exterior trim, so it is a subjective item, and naturally goes with the Targa experience.

    I also don't see any major monetary advantage to purchasing a Targa, because the future demand will likely not be much different than the current limited demand.

    The Targa is certainly a legitimate alternative, and I wouldn't want to suggest anything less than that. But I truly see it in reality as more of a third independent approach, and not as any "balance" between Coupe and Cab... as it seems so much closer to a Coupe, but a long way from a true convertible.

    It is a strikingly beautiful Porsche, however, and I would not wish to infer otherwise. I trust you will continue to enjoy and cherish yours, as you should. :)

    TagMan
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    You piqued my curriosity, so I checked out the DC area dealers. Only a few 2007 Targa's in stock, mostly "S" models and all with MSRP's in the $108,000 to $113,000 range.

    red targa S

    Besides the limited supply, you also have to want (or at least be willing to pay for) AWD. As such, a Targa 4S will run $3k+ more than a C2S Cabriolet. And probably quite a bit more than that, based upon the greater supply of Cabs.

    As the old adage goes, "it's your money", but I wouldn't count on getting a whole lot of that premium back come trade in time.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I wouldn't count on getting a whole lot of that premium back come trade in time.

    Exactly. And since it compares more closely to the Coupe, it will not likely recoup it's rather hefty premium.

    And, as you discovered, the way Porsche bundles the equipment with the Targa, that panoramic roof ends up being one incredibly expensive choice. But, of course, if it is worth it to Ken and other Targa owners, then that's what matters most.

    TagMan
  • On a recent trip to Germany and the Porsche factory, I had the opportunity to drive several 911's on the Autobahn, including a C2S, Targa 4S and the new GT3.

    I must say, even as an owner of a 2007 911 Turbo living in the Pittsburgh area, I am a bigger fan of the "2" models than the "4" models. In the case of the Turbo, with 500+ ft-lbs of torque, the AWD is not a hinderence to acceleration. But it is definitely noticable in the base and "S" models. And the added weight, while not enormous, contributes to take away some of the nimbleness of the RWD models. Even the Porsche engineers that I wnet out to dinner with prefer the "2" model and admit that Porsche's published performance numbers do not accurately reflect the better acceleration of the 2 vs. 4 models.

    I happen to like the looks of the Targa 4S, but given that many are loaded up with options and priced halfway between a C2S and Turbo, it wouldn't be my choice for either "value" or, more importantly, performance. The C2S is definitely a quicker, more nimble car. Even the C2S Cabriolet feels so.

    For almost similar prices, the Targa 4S and GT3 could not be further apart in the 911 performance spectrum. I respect that for many prospective Targa buyers, the performance may be very adequate and other factors influence the final decision. But as I would tell anyone buying anything from a Honda Civic to a Ferrari 430, you should try to test drive all of the alternaitves yourself before writing the check.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Your first-hand experience lends an excellent perspective for the discussion.

    I wish that I can go to the Porsche factory one day, as you did. How fortunate you are. There is a very slight chance that this summer will allow me a trip to Germany, but I wonder if the factory allows visits all year long.

    Thanks for the post. I enjoyed it.

    TagMan
  • vwguild1vwguild1 Posts: 98
    A plethora of info on tours, Euro Delivery, etc. can be found at link title listed under "personalization & service"...
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Thanks, wwguild1. Good info.

    Hey, you guys will get a kick out of this:

    image

    TagMan
  • bpm69bpm69 Posts: 10
    Presumably Porsche is using a profit-max function not a cost plus pricing(how else do you explain the Cayman)so less competitors in the space and less elastic demand make for worse "values". So, yeah, I agree the pricing is high.
    I was originally leaning towards a Cab. Some info : I live in the NE and have lots o kids.
    I had a couple of issues with the Cab. My rear visibility was limited with the top up which would be 50% of the time. When I put my youngest in the back on the booster her face was really close to the back of the seat. I would probably want the AWD(tried both) since NE weather is variable and the front felt a little light on the C2S at speed, but you pay a premium as they are limited inventory. Really loved the top down but probably would not be able to use the windguard that often. It's shape reminds me a little bit of the VW Bug.
    My problems with the coupe were limited. First, it wasn't a Cab. It felt a little claustrophobic. I liked the lines better than the Cab. Great handling car.
    What i liked about the Targa. I swear I have Seasonal Affective Disorder, so I liked the greenhouse effect. With the amount of errands I run, I liked the hatchback a lot. I like the look if it. With the roof open and windows down, it was pretty open.
    What I didn't like. It feels softer than the other 911s with the extra weight and different suspension. I'm overpaying and getting close to TT choices.
    I'm not going to track it, I don't have time for that hobby, and for daily use the limiting factor on my E39 M5(don't like the E60) is the unpredictability of the environment, not the car. So a TT is overkill - I won't miss the last 5% of the performance envelope THAT much and the sportier it is the more I pay in cracked air dams and bent rims. I do like to chuck it around occasionally, but everything is a trade-off.
    Anyway that's what I was thinking.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I understand your situation. Sometimes the decisions are not as simple as we would hope.

    Make sure you understand that you do not have to justify the purchase of a Targa or any other model to anyone but yourself (and your wife, perhaps...LOL). If it better meets your needs, then it is the right car for you. Discussing everything about the 911 from ALL perspectives is what this forum is about.

    Whichever variant you ultimately purchase, it is, bottom line, a Porsche 911, and you should feel damned good to own it! Good luck.

    TagMan
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Tagman is right, the only opinion that matters is yours.

    However, since I'm almost in the northeast (Washington DC), I thought I'd share with you that I have the top down on my Cab at least 50% of the time it's over 50 degrees out (when I'm not heading to a business meeting). It is quite comfortable, without the use of the wind screen. When I take my daughters and/or their friends somewhere, the top HAS to be down unless it's under 40 or raining. The more upright back seat in the Cab is not too much of a problem, but my girls are past booster seats (9 and 12). The 12 year old is neck and neck with my wife in height (5'1"), so we may be hitting leg room issues in a year or two.

    On the 4 vs. 2, I have the 2 and have never wished for the 4. I do hear some who comment that the 4 feels a little more evenly balanced due to the added weight up front. But from a traction standpoint, mine has never been driven in the snow and it's far more stable in the rain than my former S2000, so I'm happy. Now if I lived in my hometown that gets 100 inches of snow a year, maybe I'd want the 4 just so I could drive it on the light snow days rather than have it garaged 5-6 months a year.

    P.S. E39 M5. Great, great car. The best M5 ever made, IMO.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sir:

    Read message #1277 ( at your own risk, by the way ... any comment should be apolitical ) My opinion is that whatever you want is what you should get... you're inking the check. I bought a 2006 Carrera White C2S coupe because I wanted to be different. Most Porsches here in Southern California are black or silver. I didn't want the cab..I'm totally bald and the top of the dome gets sunburned. I don't enjoy the smell of freshly ignited deisel fuel either. How was I to know that the Carrera White GT3 would popularize the color... anyway I love the car in Carrera White and I don't really care how others feel about it. Enjoy your car. By the way, if you are a car freak like I am..just remember the darker colors show the scrathes and dirt.

    Chromedome
  • markgc4smarkgc4s Posts: 23
    I had the horrible experience of starting my car saturday morning and hearing a metal banging sound coming from my engine. I have my C4S for 1 year and only 2,700 miles. I bought it brand new last year and have taken superb care of it. I tried starting it a few times saturday morning and got the metal banging noise each time, as well as very bad exhaust smell. I had the car towed to the dealer and was called today after it was checked by the technicians. I was told there is nothing wrong witht he car and they don't hear any noise coming from the engine. The technician thinks that it was a stuck lifter in the engine that caused the noise from lack of use, even though I used it 2 weeks ago and the week before that. I am no expert, but it worries me that a 2006 with 2700 miles would already have a problem with a stcuk lifter. Can anyone shed some light? Is there a bigger problem that is being overlooked?
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I checked from your previous posts that you had a little high rpm episode during break in and were going to have a compression test to check for the possibility of bent valves. Did you do that?

    Also, when you attempted to start the car and heard the metal banging, did any engine warning or other lights come on? I would have thought so, as they are pretty sensitive to engine problems.

    The only other thing I will offer is that on a couple of occassions, when I stalled my car (i.e. backing out of a steep driveway, etc.), the restart sounded a little funny compared to a normal start and there was a more noticable exhaust smell. One one occassion, it even took a couple tries to get it started. No harm done, though, and my car tuns like a top at 13,400 miles.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    I don't think I can rationalize a new 997 coupe for the six to 7 months a year I would get to drive it in New England. (And for what it is worth, even though I live in the snow belt, I wouldn't pay more for AWD because I'm not going to use it in snow.)

    On cars.com I see '05 and '06 997's with asking prices in the high 60's. What does the board think of this spread betweem new and used? Where will be the prices of gently used 997's in a year? Under 60K?

    Incidentally, one of the sellers (i.e., Armando's) who keeps popping up seems to have amazing prices on new and nearly new 997s. For example he has a new '07 997 coupe with no miles and a used 997 AWD coupe with light miles, each for just under 75K. Does Porsche have buy back cars?
  • redsoxgirlredsoxgirl Posts: 67
    I don't think I can rationalize a new 997 coupe for the six to 7 months a year I would get to drive it in New England.

    FWIW, I just turned 5,000 miles on my 911S Coupe since September and, even living in Boston, it's never seen snow, other than piles in parking lots. I think the longest I have gone without driving it is 15 days, of which I was traveling half.

    As far as throwing out prices and asking what people think, I'm sure you're aware of the huge spread in 911 pricing depending upon model and options. A frugal friend of mine from North Carolin picked up a brand new new 2006 base C2 in November (after 2007's were out) for $68,500. It had limited options and an MSRP of $75,000. My well equiped 2007 C2S had an MSRP of $93,000. I've seen C4S Cabs with MSRP's over $110k.

    Buying a new 997 today, you should be able to get at least a 7-8% discount, perhaps more. I'd consider "lightly" used (<1 year, <5k miles), but only if I knew the complete history of the car and was getting at least another 10-15%+ off of what I could buy a new car for. That would be 20%+/- off the MSRP. But for any less of a discount, I would go new, since I'm a fanatic about proper break in on any high performance car. I also don't think anyone should "stretch" to get a 911, new or used. I paid cash, just to make sure I was comfortable with the outlay and didn't even remotely think of it as an "investment".

    As a side note, my friend with the base C2 coupe has since got a healthy promotion and is now considering a C2S Cabriolet. She has accepted an offer of $66,000 for her car (4,000 miles), "only" $2,500 less than she paid for it. Apparantly, the prospective buyer is comparing the price to MSRP for a 2007 $76,000 and thinking he is getting a great $10k discount.
  • markgc4smarkgc4s Posts: 23
    No warning lights came on at all. Never had the compression test done, dealer said it wasn't necessary as a bad, one time shift like that wouldn't have damaged anything. He said the car is made to withstand a lot. I picked up the car from the dealer y'day after having it checked out and having the oil changed, it ran normally and the engine sounded perfect. Don't know what to think at this point.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    Redsoxgirl, thanks for your thoughts. While I'll defer to both you and Habitat1 on this (heck I don't even own a 911) I suspect that two years down the road the used market doesn't pay much attention to a particular cars MSRP but pays far more attention to color and body style. If you accept that statement and were a used car buyer maybe the best "deal" is a loaded up used, emerald green 911! (Cars.com now lists a late model silver 911 with cordovan leather interior that I think may be on for a while.)
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    You had the oil changed already? What did that run you? I had to insist that my dealer change mine at 1 year / 10k miles. He even had a Porsche factory technician call personally to assure me that the 2 year / 20k first service & oil change interval was all that was needed.
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