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Porsche 911

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  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    Hey, its good to be back.

    Now where did that old "I don't like SUVs why do you?" thread disappear to? Its needed more now than ever! ;)

    Things have been busy with us over the last couple of years - a lot of work stuff, but some personal downtime too; (my newer photography website if you're interested).

    We're getting back into a car-buying cycle for the Mrs, so I've been poking around Edmunds again...maybe next year, she'll let me trade in my '85 for a 997, although I've been sniffing at Caymans for awhile too. Remind me to tell you of my visit to the Mercedes & Porsche museums and Porsche factory too last September - - unfortunately no photos inside, as they were manufacturing the 2008s but hadn't done the press release for them yet.

    -hh
  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    The "problem" with the 928, if you want to call it that, was that it was relatively heavy, more luxurious, but not particularly nimble, and really never was perceived as a sports car. It was always a GT car.

    I can certainly agree with that, particularly as how you go on to mention about it being an "upsell" for potential 924/944/968 buyers.

    I think that what Porsche overlooked is that while they did have a customer demographic who wanted more luxury, a stronger contingent of these consumers desired the marquee benchmark (the 911), but could only afford the 944's lower price point. As the 944 (and 968) creeped up in price, the price gap to the 911 narrowed, which resulted in self-canabalizing sales and the inevitable discontinuation of the 4-cyl {924/944/944T/968} product line.

    I suspect that the Boxster has been mostly successful in avoiding this fate through a careful product-price placement combination of lower price and being a convertible, which tends to move its price point comparison from the 911 coupe to the higher priced 911 Targa and/or 911 Convertible.

    FWIW, I do find it interesting that today, that the cheapest new Porsche isn't the Boxster or Cayman, but is actually the Cayenne SUV.

    -hh
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    I don't think that the Boxster lures too many 911 shoppers, at least not the drivers who really understand what a 911 type is.

    Perhaps there's some crossover between a Boxster S and a 911 type, but if you poll the demographics for each type of car, especially non-S vs. 911 type, you'll notice a distinct difference I think in most cases. Not many women are fond of the 911 as an everyday driver IMO.

    But yeah, Porsche gets the best of both worlds with these two different types.

    I'd still drive 928s if they weren't such maintenance hogs. Fabulous car.

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  • eliomayeliomay Posts: 2
    Going to check out a '05 997 tomorrow (for $55K, 39K miles, Tiptronic S transmission, Bi-Xenon headlamps, dual power/heated seats, Sport Steering Wheel, PASM, Sport Chrono Plus, NAVIGATION, and BOSE Premium Sound System).

    There's 9 months/11K miles left on the warranty, but no CPO and I'll be trading in my 01 996 C2 for it.

    I know l should have a CPO, but as its still under porsche warranty l feel it should be ok. Any big problems should make themselves known in the next 9 months or so ( l think).

    Would be grateful for your thoughts on this.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Is that a 2005 C2 base coupe? If so, price sounds a little high.

    I was told my 2005 911S Cab is worth (private sale) in the neighborhood of $65k with 21k miles and 13 months left on warranty. I have all of your options, plus some (leather, sport exhaust, etc.). I would have expected a base coupe with you mileage to be closer to $50k or less. If it's an S model, then the pricing is more reasonable.

    Another thing to consider is that, at least in my area, used Tiptronics go for less than a comparable 6-speed. I've seen tiptronic 911's linger on my dealer's lot for a few months and then go to auction. So there may be some good deals out there if you shop around.
  • eliomayeliomay Posts: 2
    Yes, thats a base.

    Really, $55K is too high for a '05 997 C2? If so, thats good news. I only started looking a few days ago, so l will shop around a while. Not in a hurry, but after l drove a brand new 997, l have to upgrade.

    BTW, what do you think about buying a car that has a factory warranty but no CPO.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    $55k sounds like a good enough deal to me and sounds about right on target for the market right now. Check autotrader and some other websites to give you an idea.

    -moo
  • buylowbuylow Posts: 41
    I was reading an article in "Excellence" magazine about the 10 Porsches to collect today. The 1978-83 911SC caught my eye and I was wondering if anyone had an opinion about buying one of these cars? The article claims that a nice one would cost between $16,000 & $19,000, that they're loads of these cars around, that they're durable, fun, don't rust like older Porsches, and the 2.0 engine is a good one. I'm not buying it as an investment, just to have fun with and to see where my 2006 911 came from. I don't mind a restoration project. I just don't want to buy a bucket of bolts that is always breaking down. Perhaps there is no such thing in the Prosche family as a bucket of bolts, but you get what I mean. What do you think?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,239
    For that price, you can get an '84-'89 Carrera.. which is what I would do..

    That price seems high for a 911SC, but I'm not in that market, so maybe it's firmed up some... Most of the cars I see go for $9K-$13K (maybe for a good reason, though).

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,676
    I agree with kyfdx. That money should get a nice Carrera. The SCs run a couple of grand cheaper, but anything cheaper than $12K is probably a nightmare. I actually was planning to buy an SC, but I found a good deal on an 86 Carerra through a friend. Both are great cars.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    The 78-83 SCs are very rugged, reliable cars with a 3.0 engine (not 2.0) but you might find the 87-89 Carrera a lot more refined and easier to drive around town. Coming from a water cooled 996 as you have, you may find the air cooled cars quite a bit different from what you drive. They are decidedly edgier and more electric.

    I agree with the others---"Excellence" is making silly prices again. :P

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  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    So then I have to ask, if $55k is a good price for a 2005 C2 base with 39k miles and no CPO, what would you think is a good price for a 2005 C2S Cab with 22k miles and a few more options? (FWIW, I'm guessing the original MSRP was about $23-25k higher)
  • buylowbuylow Posts: 41
    Thanks for the info, guys. I have been doing a little reading on the 1978-83 911 SC's and the 1987-89 911's. Sounds like the 1987-89's have a bigger clutch, improved transmission and hydraulic clutch activation (easier to shift). As you say, easier to drive around town. This may be the one. The problem is that these '89's with 30 to 60,000 miles are running $32,000 to $35,000. Check out www.truspeedmotorcars.com. The cars are in excellent condition and Truspeed has its own mechanics that go through them, I think, plus they are only 30 miles from where I live in So. California.They e-mailed me the prices of their inventory. EbayMotors isn't much better on the pricing. When you say 1987-89,s for under $20,000, are you talking 100,000 miles +??. Obviously, private party would be cheaper, but riskier. Going to check out Truspeed this Saturday. As long as I don't drive it, I won't buy it.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,676
    100K + on these cars doesn't bother me a bit. They are 20 years old after all.
    I just did a quick check of autotrader and saw piles of low mileage 87-89s for around $20K, and that is just asking prices.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    You would be looking in the low $60k's. Habitat1, the 997's aren't going underneath $50k yet unless you get a beater. I know you seem to have your finger on the pulse of the market, but I watch these vehicles come and go every day. It isn't there yet. At least in my market.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,239
    Paying a $10K premium to buy through some sort of boutique dealer is not the way I would go...

    These cars aren't garage queens (for the most part)... people drive them..

    Not sure why Shifty doesn't like the '84-'86 models, but any of those will be under $20K.... plus, most of the '87-'89 models, as well.. You should be able to find a really nice example for $18K-$20K... $25K+ for a Carrera of that vintage is nuts..

    If I'm paying over $30K, I'd look for the '94-'96 model... (not that you'll find any, but you could look..lol).

    Oh yeah... get a coupe and stay away from the targa or convertible..

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  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,676
    84-86 still have the old style transmission and clutch. That is why 87-89s are preferred by most. It clearly doesn't matter to me too much since I am in the process of purchasing an '86.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,239
    I had an '84.. Didn't know they were different... Of course, I still have a massive left quad muscle, and I sold the car in '94... lol.

    '86... big update... you get the third center-mounted brake light.. ;)

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  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,676
    If I want something easy to drive, I'll borrow the wife's Pilot. Comfort is for sissies.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    The 87-89 clutch is like "budda". It's really a significant improvement. The shifts are sure for one thing, you don't have to miss shifts, jam the lever in, or constantly re-adjust the clutch cable like on the 84-86s. And you'll get more time between clutch replacements.

    I agree, $20K should be more than enough to get a clean driver Carrera in very good condition. Porsche Carrera engines are EASY 200,000 mile engines and I have seen them unopened up to 250K.

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  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I respect your first hand experience, but your two estimates of fair value don't seem to reconcile with each other:

    C2 base coupe, 39,000 miles $55k.
    C2 "S" Cab, 22,000 miles $62k +/-.

    In my market, the "S" alone is worth at least $5-7k in the used market Not sure about the cab vs. coupe since it is somewhat seasonal, but the list price is $10k more for the Cab. And, although 911's are not Ferrari 430's where extra miles on the odometer cost you about $2 each, the extra 17k mileage has to have some impact on resale ($5-7k?). Collectively, it looks to me like these total a $15k difference, not $7-8K+/-.

    If my math is correct, then either the "low 60's" for a C2S Cab w/22k miles is the right number and the C2 coupe should be high $40's, or the $55k number for the C2 base coupe is right and the C2S Cab should be high 60's/$70k. That doesn't take into consideration the effect of a tiptronic vs. 6-speed transmission which, although a $3,400 option, my dealer insists is a detraction when it comes to resale. Especially now that the new double clutch DSG is out.

    Feel free to tell me where my math/rationale is off - it certainly wouldn't be the first time.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Posts: 2,039
    I think I read too fast. I didn't see the Cab part. I was evaluating yours based on a C2S. The price would move into the high $60k's with a Cab. That's based on what I've been seeing coming through here.
  • buylowbuylow Posts: 41
    Ahaw, I had my heart set on a targa. This may be an academic discussion since my wife thinks the targas are soo darn cute, but what are the problems with the targa-higher maintenance and water leakage? Anything that can't be fixed? Since I have a coup, I thought mixing it up might be interesting unless it will become a headache.

    I checked Craig's list, but didn't find much. Ebaymotors was better. I'll check the auto trader, as mentioned. I'm going for the "87-89's, but if a good SC comes along first, I'll go for it. Going to try to keep it under $20,000.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,239
    I never had a leak with my Targa...

    But, the rear seal deteriorates... This is the rubber seal that is mounted to the car, not the top.... It is one long seal that starts at the top of the door and goes up, across the targa bar and back down to the top of the other door... The windows and the back of the targa top seal against it.. Getting an installer that knows what they are doing is half the battle, but a replacement job can run $700-$800..

    The, you have the targa skin and headliner... Both of these wear out and have to be replaced... the frame is usually good forever.. Figure another $600+ for the skin/headliner.

    I had a targa.... loved it.. Always said I'd get a sunroof coupe, if I ever did it again..

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    Targas squeak and leak, and they compromise body integrity. So you can't easily vintage-race them.

    But if you re-seal them carefully, and lube up the seals, they can be tolerable. I wouldn't pay extra for one over a sunroof coupe, by no means.

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  • asi12asi12 Posts: 46
    What are the most popular colors for Porsche 911 esp. which keeps its resale value?

    Black, white, red and yellow are standard colors if someone is ordering new. I have seen, both new and used Porsche, black is the most abundant color followed by silver and gray. Is there any particular reason for that? Some colors like Gold metallic and green can be difficult to sell if one needs to later on?

    What is the market for red, blue and yellow colors? I know one buy it for his/her own enjoyment but lets say if someone does not have any preference for a particular color. Any opinion on that?
  • Found what I wanted on Craig's list - an '87 911 Targa, guards red, with 118,000 miles, and it's in mint condition with records for the last six years. I was suspicious at first because the interior and exterior are in such good condition, but my Porsche mechanic did a three hour plus, inspection and said he would buy it if I didn't. The inspection, by the way, was $350 plus tax, but well worth it. It needs a tune up, oil change, a/c charge, and a few other things to the tune of about $1200 which is going to be done this Tuesday. More importantly, the inspection confirmed that it's all original, never been in an accident, most of the paint is original and the engine is in good condition. I paid $17,000 plus the $1200 in repairs. Owner was asking $18,900. I'm sure I could have gotten it cheaper, but I got too excited. Saw it the second day it came out and was afraid he would be getting a lot of calls. I also noticed that these older Porsches seem to sell for more in California than other places.

    Yours right, the G50 transmission and clutch is a lot more civilized than the SC's, but because of the extra weight, not as peppy as the SC with the 3.0 engine vs.the 3.2 in the '87. I would think the '84 to '86 911's would be the fastest with the 3.2 engine, but without the extra weight of the G50 trans. Can you confirm this? The auto trader was another good place to look. Thanks to all for the info.

    By the way, I just got back from Birmingham, Alabama, for the two day Porsche high performance driving school. This school is owned by Porsche and is worth every penny. They use the Barbara Motorsports track which, by the way, is no relation to Skip Barbara. All new 911 and 911s. Track is 2.4 miles with 14 turns and a 350 foot elevation difference. Went off road in the cayennes too, and got to take a hot lap in a GT3. A first class operation.

    Earl
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    There is a lot of speculation about color and resale value. I have a 2005 911S Cab in Seal Grey that I bought off the lot in Spetember, 2005 at a great deal ($10k off). My preference at that time would have been Speed Yellow and, in fact, the next spring I ordered a 2006 through the dealer that I then decided not to take when a deal to sell my 2005 fell through. The dealer kept the Speed Yellow on their lot for about 6-8 weeks, longer than most other colors at the time, but then it sold for near MSRP (vs. the $8k off I had negotiated) to someone that had it shipped to Arizona. There were only about 3-5 new Speed Yellow 911S Cabs in the country at the time, vs. probably hundreds of gray, silver or black ones.

    IMO, my seal gray will be easier to sell than speed yellow, but on the other hand, I won't get much value for some of the $13k in options on the car. The biggest color danger is in the interior cusomization. Before I ordered that Speed Yellow, I saw one that had gone overboard with yellow guages, yellow seat stitching, yellow seat belts, yellow center console. You needed sunglasses driving at night. I've seen some other interior color combos that only the original bipolar owner could love. But short of those, I think you can be pretty safe going with almost any exterior color and keeping the option list under control.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    Sounds good! Yeah, price is market correct but miles are great and condition sounds terrific. Congrats! I've seen old Porsches with well over 300,000 on them. (just saw one the other day, original owner). Try THAT with a Corvette or Ferrari. Not gonna happen.

    My impression last time I drove one was that the SC is kinda doggy compared to later cars.

    As for the AC, if you don't need it I'd consider removing the compressor and putting it in a box. It really gets in the way of everything.

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  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,676
    The Barber track is literally right down the road from me - about 5 miles. That would be Barber, as in George Barber, a dairy guy.

    It looks like I'll be picking up my '86 Carerra on Friday. It doesn't sound quite as nice as your car, but I am still really excited.
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