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Porsche 911

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  • s4to911s4to911 Posts: 12
    Have you actually driven a 2005 S Cab and a 2004 C4S Cab back to back? I have, and I own a 2005 S Cab. Interestingly, I asked my Porsche salesman about it as well, and he agreed completely--he would even take an 2005 S Cab over a 2004 Turbo Cab, which I found surprising.

    It is an entirely different experience driving a 997 than a 996, from the apperance of better fit and finish in the 2005 to better handling and acceleration. A lot of this is subjective, so if you drive both and like the 996, then get it.

    One thing that is interesting to hear is talk about resale value and "rarity." Look, we are all dropping close to or above $90-100K for these cars, from what I hope for many if not most of us is very disposable income (this car to me is really an extreme luxury). This is a purchase with your heart, not your head.

    It is never a wise business decision to invest in a depreciating asset. Sure, a rare Porsche may be worth more in the future--provided you keep it pristine in your garage and never drive it, so there is no damage, dings, stone chip marks, etc when you sell it.

    If you need to feel like you are making an investment to make you feel better about the purchase, OK, go with it--but there are better ways to make money, as I am sure you know.

    I bought this car to drive it--period. Its a Porsche, so I think I won't get totally killed on the resale. The joy I have driving it is worth every bit of depreciation that I am going to take.
  • love2skicar1,

    Sorry to jump on, but it appears to me that YOU don't know what you are talking about in this instance and, rich or not, you would be foolish to come even close to paying $100k+ for a used 2004 C4S Cab.

    First, there is nothing particularly "rare" about a 2004 C4S other than the number of buyers that wanted to buy one new. Porsche increased its production capacity with the 996 model and could have produced as many of its 911's in AWD format as the demand warranted. The fact is that most Porsche purists don't want an AWD 911, especially the 996 base model with only 320 horsepower. To claim the C4S is rare because of anything other than limited demand is simply incorrect.

    Second, while it is true that some Porsche purists have bid up the price of late model air cooled 993's, there is no love affair with the 996. It's neither as "pure" as the 993, nor nearly as good as the new 997. I personally agree with S4to911, I would choose the 997 S Cab over the 996 Turbo Cab. I would trade off 0.5 seconds 0-60 for the upgraded interior, better handling and other refinements.

    Third, if you really want a used 2004 C4S Cab, shop around. I believe the price for a pristine one with under 5,000 miles should be closer to $75,000 - $80,000. I was in DC earlier this year and saw one at Select Auto Imports for around that price. They are reputable, as one of my business partners has bought his last two cars from them.

    Finally, don't kid yourself with the economics of buying a "rare" car.. You want to talk really rare?? I owned a 1979 BMW M1. BMW's Motorsport Group made a grand total of 455 of these over a 4 year period of time. I sold the mine in 1983 (we were moving out of the country) for $55,000. I put $50,000 of the sales price into an investment account subject to an agreement with my wife that it would be available for a future sports car purchase when we returned. That fund, as of yesterday's stock market close, is now worth exactly $2,134,557.80. That's a compounded annual return of 18.6%. I have purchased several sports cars in the interim 22 years out of other discretionary funds, but decided to keep the "sports car" fund intact as a lesson to our kids of the importance of saving and the value of compounding (not to mention a pretty good fund manager).

    If you really like the 2004 C4S more than the 2005 997 S, that is certainly your perogative. But I do think you are being shnookered into thinking you are getting something that you are not, and potentially paying an extremely inflated price for it. I hope at least that you shop around a bit more.
  • pabs1pabs1 Posts: 15
    Thanks so much.
    I guess I have to tell my Salesperson to be aware of the fact that Late models 05 and 06 997 and 997 S have an MP3 capability
    Again, Thanks for the info.
  • You are very confident anyone paying $100K for a C4S is foolish, so go ahead and do a simple search on ebay or autotrader and tell us what you find. If you can find a reasonably equipped C4S for $75-80K TODAY (vs. winter) with 4K miles, then I suggest you buy it and sell it the next day, because you'll do even better than you did in your investment account. The lowest I found on ebay or autotrader was $94K for a car with fewer options and more miles.

    The reason for the discrepancy is that you have to take into account options (and mileage) when valuing a Porsche (and other cars like classic Corvettes) because they influence the supply demand equation. The car in question has ceramic brakes ($8K), navigation ($3K), full leather, carbon fiber interior, special wheels, sports exhaust ($1K), power memory seats, and 4K miles so that accounts for the higher price vs. more normally equipped, higher mileage version. A car with fewer options and just a few more thousand miles would be worth significantly less.

    I give up..the only person who added to this question was the person who had driven them back to back. It's hard to find dealers with both models in stock at the same time so that information was helpful, so thank you.

    Still waiting for the $75-80K C4S ;)
  • I don't need to search autotrader or e-bay to find out what the "asking" prices are on a used C4S. Rather, I suggest you call some reputable Porsche dealerships and ask them to tell you what they would give you in actual trade value for the C4S you are considering.

    I also don't need to be reminded that options and mileage need to be taken into account when valuing a Porsche. And I assume, as a previous 911 owner, that you don't need to be told that the resale value of $8k ceramic brakes on a car that isn't going to see a lot of serious track time is potentially a negative, due to the very high cost of maintenance and potential repairs (chipped rotors are $3k +/-).

    Your previous posts had suggested that you had driven both cars, acknowledged that the 997 was superior in both performance and refinement, but you were being "advised" by the dealer to pay $104k+ for a used 996 C4S because it is "rare". Isn't he nice, watching out for your financial interests? I was simply trying to give you a more objective assessment, since I don't make a fat commission regardless of what you decide. Good luck either way.
  • is I've driven lots of 911s over the years and as yet haven't had one of my own, so I'm just about ready to take the leap. I'd really like a Carrera S, but I'm wondering if the extra $10K or so is really worth it?

    Help!
  • bsumnerbsumner Posts: 39
    It really depends on what you want. If you are looking for more of a street car (and if you aren't price insensitive), then I'd recommend the straight Carrera. The additional features on the S (PASM, 30 bhp, 19" wheels) cost $10k and are more of a hindrance (in the case of the 19" wheels) on a daily basis or irrelevant (PASM/less than 10% bhp increase) unless you are taking the car to the limit.

    For all but the most extreme driving:
    --the 19" wheels reduce comfort significantly and unnecessarily increase expense (upfront price, tire wear and replacement cost). [as an aside, when is the wheel size inflation going to end?]
    --PASM isn't necessary--and only makes the already stiff suspension stiffer

    Furthermore, a 30 bhp jump is pretty meager for a "S" badge . . .

    However, if you plan to take it to the track, then I'd consider the S . . .

    From my personal perspective, I am spending my $$ on traction--and thus have ordered a 911 Carrera 4. It feels like a much better use of $6k--better wet weather traction and the wide rear fenders.

    It is unclear to me whether the S or straight Carrera will hold its value better . . . they seem to be making them in equal proportions. And, frankly, I don't care since I will either lease and turn mine in . . . or keep it for 20 years. This is a minor point at best.

    Enjoy your test driving either way!

    Regards.
  • Many thanks for your response--plenty of good points to ponder. For me, I think the straight Carrera sounds like the better alternative. As it is, either will probably be parked in my living room as I've been waiting a looooooong time to get one.

    I've also been thinking BMW M3 which is a lot of fun too. Decisions, decisions.

    If you have any other thoughts, they'd be much appreciated

    Again, thanks for your time and info
  • bsumnerbsumner Posts: 39
    You're welcome. Gratified to hear you found my musings thoughtful.

    2 responses:

    1. I find that people are often very unrealistic as to what they are buying cars for and what they really need--and fall into the marketing spin. E.g., some people have their Carreras' brake calipers painted red to make them look like those of the Carrera S/Turbo. Or have them painted yellow to look like PCCB. When one is living in this zip code, one has seriously lost perspective--and totally bought into Porsche's carefully stratified caste system. When you consider that a base 997 is one of the quickest, most capable vehicles on the road, how important is it to have the best/fastest/etc. And at what cost (and profit to Stuttgart)?

    2. M3 vs. 997: Fundamentally different class of car. It really depends on what you are willing to spend. I had the same decision and decided that I wanted no compromises in car (but that means that hauling my golf clubs in it will be a pain). Accordingly, pick your compromises. A very fast and somewhat convenient car vs. a sports car that compromises convenience.

    Regards.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Reasonable people can dissagree, as is the case of me and bsumner.

    I do agree that the base Carrera is a fine car that would satisfy most. However, after driving the 2005 Boxster S with and without PASM (and sport chrono), I noticed the difference and, given the choice, would order it on the 911. The "normal" mode can be manually selected and is virtually identical in comfort to the non-PASM car. But when the roads are smooth and you want the tighter, firmer feel, that sport button is nice, IMO.

    The 19" wheels are mostly aesthetic, but the tires are not significantly more expense or have less treadwear life than the base Carrer's 18" wheels according to the guys I spoke with at the Tire Rack. In the Boxster S's I tested, I could barely notice any difference in comfort between the 18" and 19", with the 19" PASM one set on "normal" mode.

    The other two standard features of the Carrera S are mandatory, IMO - Xenon lights and sport steering wheel.

    So, when you add up the cost of the aforementioned options that come standard on the Carrera S, they equate to roughly half of the $10k difference in the base price. Is the extra 30 hp worth an additional $5k? I haven't test driven the 911 and 911S back to back, but from those I've talked to that have, they would claim the difference feels like a lot more than 30 hp. In fact, one of our friends who owns a 2003 911TT claims that the 997 911 S is almost as quick.

    On the C2 vs. C4 issue, I'm again of the other opinion that carting around an extra 200+ lbs in a sports car for occasionally better rain performance, but a heavier, less nimble feel all of the time is not a trade off I would make. I'll slow down in the rain and not drive in the snow at all.

    All of these opinions are purely subjective. However, if you would end up ordering a 911 base with many of the options that come standard on the S, I'd think the S might be worth the incremental difference at that point.
  • s4to911s4to911 Posts: 12
    Drive both, then decide. I thought the extra 10K was worth it, and bought an S Cab. By the time you option out the base Carrera, you are close to an S anyway in price (you will want fewer options with an S).

    Some other thoughts:

    (1) There is no difference in comfort or useability with 19 inch wheels. My S Cab has been a daily driver for 2500 miles since June and handles flawlessly. It is less harsh than my old Audi 2001 S4 with stock suspension.
    (2) Same can be said with PASM. The car handles much tighter with PASM in sport mode. Even in sport mode, it is less harsh than my stock S4.
    (3) Clearly, if you think that the extra 10K isn't worth it, go for the base Carrera--it is a wonderful car. But drive both if you can--there is nothing like personal experience to guide you.

    To get an idea of where there are cars to test--check out the Porshce website under "find a dealer." Get all dealers within 100 miles of you, then go to their websites and find their new 911 inventory. You will find and S and non-S 911 to test...
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    In the event I order a 911 S Cabriolet, would I be nuts to get it in Speed Yellow?

    I let my daughters pick spa yellow as the color for my previous $32k Honda S2000, and I'm even willing to go with Speed Yellow on a $60k Boxster S, but I'm concerned that speed yellow might be a bit over the top on a $100k 911 Cab. Porsche itself features a 4 page fold out of a Cab S in speed yellow in its brochure, and I think it looks great. However, the dealer has suggested that an extra $825 for Seal Gray on a 911 would be a more appropraitely conservative choice and better for future resale.

    Any opinions?
  • kyfdx@Edmundskyfdx@Edmunds Posts: 25,914
    I have to agree with your first impressions.. Not that I would get it, but Speed Yellow would seem more appropriate on a Boxster, than a 911...

    Of course, I really like the Seal Gray.... so, I may be biased.

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Posts: 491
    There's a reason that Porsche used that color to promote the Cab, because it looks good. Also, I think cabriolet should be in bright sunny color instead of dark colors. Anyway, I think you need to pick one that you like the best (you are paying $100K for it). By the way, I also ordered one in Speed Yellow
  • bsummer/htat/s4 Once again, many thanks for taking the time to post some great insights. I've had lots of tricked out BMWs (full Alpina conversions etc), hence my consideration of the M3. But, I've always wanted a 911. And as you pointed out a quick car with some compromise or pretty much the epitome of a true sports car.

    I've avoided, for awhile this dilemma as I made a small real estate investment today that will tie up some of my $$$ for a bit.

    Good thing I have my AMC Pacer station wagon for my second car =)
  • 96redlt496redlt4 Posts: 13
    I think worth the money for the 'S' pckg. I have not driven the 997, but I also own a 01 C5 vette 6spd coupe and it feels about as fast as my 997S. The handling, build quality etc. shows no comparison however between the two. The Porsche is significantly better. I would have just hated to drive home in a car that felt slower than my 'Bowling Green Iron' IMHO!
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    In the event I order a 911 S Cabriolet, would I be nuts to get it in Speed Yellow?

    No, but it would be a curious color for a 911 Cabrio. I could see it on a Coupe maybe, but not on a Cabrio, imo. I think the best color for the 997 is Midnight Blue with that Sand Beige interior. That is stunning, yet tasteful to me. Porsche also has a green that I like, but I'm not sure what its called. I do know thats its like a 3K option.

    M
  • I'm not ashamed to expose my ignorance here (I have plenty) about Porsche options--I think the Speed yellow would look good on a coupe as well, and don't they offer contrasting color on the seat piping as an option? Black interior with yellow piping. Seems like a combination you 'd see on one of the tuner cars, like Ruf etc.

    OTOH, it seems that as soon as you get the car you may subconsciously be thinking about re-sale down the road and that may not be a combination that appeals to a lot of folks.

    I live in So Cal (sure many posters here do too) and some guy--don't know who--has, or had a yellow RR convertible with black interior that's always conspicuously parked with the top down on Rodeo Drive.

    Land Rover had bright yellow as an option I believe—it looked all right on the Disco, but seemed a bit much for the Range Rover. Smaller cars seem better able to handle different or wilder colors. I recall that Porsche had deep plumb color (aubergene-sp?) many years ago that looked nice
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Merc,

    Interesting difference of opinion, I think the Speed Yellow looks better on a 911 Cab or Boxster than a 911 coupe. I like the contrast between the yellow and black top and interior. However, in coupe form, I'd probably go with seal grey or silver. With the entire car in speed yellow (i.e. the roof of the coupe), it looks a little too much like an Easter egg, IMO. If you swing by a Porsche dealership, the 2005 "New 911" brochure features the Cab S in Speed Yellow.

    Midnight Blue is beautiful - clean! But it's a little too close to the black that I've had once that drove me nuts and showed swirl marks way to soon. I think I saw the Olive Green that you referred to. I also thought it looked good, but that is one of the colors that I've heard is extremely hard on resale. Not an issue for someone planning to keep the car for 10 years.
  • Hello Steelcruiser,

    You seem to be pretty knowledgeable on this subject. If I was to purchase a new base model 911, the options I would include would be the Xenon lighting, leather seats and the Bose sound system. Given that Porsche can and does nickel and dime you to death when it comes to options, which other options would you absolutely insist on purchasing? 19 inch wheels? If so, does it effect the ride greatly? I do not have hard driving habits. I plan to use this car pretty regularly, I plan on having it for a very long time and would be willing to sacrifice some performance for comfort.

    Thanks!
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