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All Things Porsche

Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
This is a new forum to discuss anything and everything about Porsche automobiles (not SUVs!), from the oldest to the newest.

MrShiftright
(past and present Porsche owner)

MODERATOR

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Comments

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Shifty, is your present Porsche a recent addition? I don't recall mention of it. Let's hear about it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    Yeah, fairly recent. A Porsche 928. I only bought it because a) I still can't find the 911 Targa/Cab I want (fussy and careful) and b) the 928 is a whole lotta car for the money. I almost bit on a 1988 911 Cabriolet (G50 trans, good year) but alas it failed the tech inspection. Looked great but there you go. My tech says NO and I nod like an obedient slave.

    The 928 is a bit of an animal. I can see why 911 owners prefer the lighter, more agile 911. The term "German Corvette" has been used to describe the 911 and it's not far off the mark, except that it has much better build quality than older Corvettes that one might compare it to.

    The 928 is a man's car, no doubt about it. You have to sort of manhandle it. With the K&N filter and temporary catalytic testing tube in place, it sounds REALLY great.

    The last 928s are much faster but the early ones are probably sturdier and less maintenance intensive. The V8 engine goes forever, it'll be ticking when the rest of the car is junk.

    MODERATOR

  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Posts: 1,704
    I always liked Porsches and have had great respect for the marque since I was a little kid. I also find that they make some of the best engines ever...the 5-cylinder in my 1993 Volvo 850 was actually designed with Porsche input. However, as I got older and my knowledge about cars in general increased, I found that there are some Porsche models that I find less than desirable today. Here are my thoughts:

    1) 1976 912E (one-year only model). This car had a VW engine in a great-looking body. Deserved better attetion.
    2) Any 924. I dislike the overall quality so much it would take too long to bash this one.
    3) Early 944s (1983-85). Drove great, but the interior was the same cheap, plasticky one found in the 924, and I hate the gauge design too.
    4) 1973-77 911s. These had the problematic 2.7-liter engines with thermal reactors. I had a friend whose '74 blew up around 90k miles because of the failed head studs. It's been sitting in his driveway for 15 years waiting for a rebuild.

    Now for my all-time favorite Porsches:

    1) 1996-98 911 Carrera 4S. I tried to take on one of these on the interstate with my Volvo sedan. Needless to say I got humiliated badly.
    2) Any 968. These cars looked really great and had excellent handling to boot. The motors also sounded great too.
    3) 1986-89 911 Carreras. I just like them because they have classic styling and they will go on forever, unlike most of the junk of that era.
    4) 1998 911 Turbo S. The ultra-rare model (only 185 sold in US) of the newer 993 series. I understand that Jerry Seinfeld owns one. How much do you think those babies would sell for today?

    Jrosasmc (avowed Volvo and Porsche lover)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    It's really the 1975-77 Porsches with the 2.7 that you have to be careful about. The '73 and '74 are great cars, don't pass them up!!

    The 912E is an odd duck...my slogan for that car is "VW performance at Porsche repair prices". The original 912 is powered by the final version of the 356 engine, so it's a Porsche through and through.

    The 914, especially the 2.0 liter with chrome bumpers, is a great little car for the money. They are a killer in autocross and very well built and designed. Styling is not to everyone's taste. Stay away from cars converted to Weber carbs. Never run right. Also a VW powered car, but that don't mean "cheap to fix". Transmission is from a 911 as is most front end stuff.

    As for the newer Porsches, they still embody the spirit of the old, which is remarkable, but they don't have that old "electric wire" feeling. They are more luxurious and comfortable and not so nervous. I prefer 2WD to 4WD myself.

    ERRATA: I meant to say in the last post that the 928 is called "The German Corvette", not the 911. Just a typo.

    MODERATOR

  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,362
    congrats on the 928....I remember we were talking about it a year ago ....I was really into 928s....and even considered buying one , but thought family came first, so the suv was bought.

    wife OKed the purchase of a 928 even.

    hey, I know many must be sore about Porsche making a SUV....but its a great car....the Cayenne has gobs of power, can do go where most fear to tread....and performs better than a boxster S on the Nurbringing track.

    sorry shifty, but I know you said no SUV....but just to inject my .02 cents....

    congrats on your 928 again.. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    So far so good. Most Porsches are not "home-mechanic" cars but I can do most of the maintenance. But a 928 is one of those "gotcha" cars---you'd better read before you bleed.

    Just got my Car & Driver in the mail with the road test for the newest Porsche. Looks like the car might have a little more of the old feeling built back into it.

    MODERATOR

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "...the Cayenne... performs better than a boxster S on the Nurbringing track."

    I think Billy Joel's stranger just hit me right between the eyes. Highender, would you kindly provide a reference so I can put this into perspective. You wouldn't want me to go running to trade in my Boxster S for a Cayenne under any false pretense would you?

    ;-)
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,362
    Hi designman:

    I had a 2000 Boxster S, with 250 hp ...also.

    But I don;t drive the Cayenne like the Boxster. the two are for 2 diff purposes...

    I read it the first time in EVO magazine, when they compared the Cay Turbo to I think it was the Audi All road twin turbo, the Ranger by Overfinch, and a Impreza Turbo....and they mentioned that it did the nurbringen better than the BMW M3, and similar numbers to boxster S.

    I have a whole stack of saved articles on Cayenne, so let me dig thru it....

    some articles are from Car & Driver, some from Porsche bulletins, some from EvO, Motor trend, etc....let me get the exact issue...(I'm at work)

    but I think the point is that the turbo version can hold its own with many sports sedans, and even a few sports cars.... ;)

    sorry shifty....

    back to 'regular Porsches'....
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Posts: 776
    I have the opportunity to pick up a Carrera 4S that a friend owns. I am extremely familiar with the car (probably put a few hundred miles on it myself over the last couple of years) and the condition and servicing of the car is meticulous. Pricing is not much of a concern, he recently fell in love with a C6 Vette and the 911 is parked outside. He knows how I've lusted after the car....

    A couple of questions,

    - Any particular maintenance / mechanical issues specific to the 2002 model year that I should be aware of?

    - What are your opinion(s) of the 911 C4's winter ability? My current S2000 (which I will keep!) is more or less useless in the winter. My friend, in contrast, is on his third AWD 911 and has driven every single one of them through Detroit winters without incident. He claims that even with the Potenza S03s he's running, the 911 is a fine daily driver so long as there isn't much more than a couple of inches of snow on the ground. (In contrast... my S2000 goes sideways if there's a dusting.) I'd like to know if he is overstating things, or if the AWD + PSM really does make the car a reasonable winter driver for non-blizzard conditions.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,624
    1) There is no way I would do winter driving on S03s... They really shouldn't be driven on in freezing temperatures, let alone inclement weather.

    2) Admittedly, this isn't apples to apples.. but..
    My wife's 325i goes like a tank on winter tires.. and this is a car that has a deservedly poor reputation for winter traction.. Also, (more apples to oranges), I had an '84 911.. which of course was not AWD, and with all that weight on the rear tires, I had no problems in winter driving (all-season performance tires).

    3) With the proper tires, I'm thinking that car would do great in the winter.. I'm not sure if there are stock winter sizes for the C4S, and it might involve buying another set of wheels, but it sounds ideal to me.

    4) If you get the performance oriented winter tires (Bstone LM22, Dunlop M3, Goodyear Ultra-Grip GW-3), then you won't be sacrificing much in the way of handling, either... A lot of winter tires are now V-rated.

    Hopefully someone will chime in with some directly related experience.

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    I think you should drive the C2 and feel the difference. I think you lose a lot of the Porsche experience with the C4, and also get a very very complicated automobile whose capabilities are rarely going to be used anyway.

    MODERATOR

  • sphinx99sphinx99 Posts: 776
    I've already driven both a fair amount. I prefer the amazing traction that comes with the C4. It's hard to break that rear end loose. The C2 is a different story. Also, blasphemous as this may sound, I do not consider the current (993/996) C2 to be a paradigm improvement over my existing S2000 when it comes to handling or dynamics; the C4 is a different story. It's basically the complete package as designed for 400+ horsepower, but with a lot less power. That appeals to me - there's a sense of overengineering in the tires, brakes, chassis, etc., that gives you a huge margin within which to experiment.

    kyldx - thanks for the input; duly noted.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    C2 has a much lighter feel, but C4 is better for traction in inclement conditions. One thing the novice driver or new driver to a C4 has to be careful of is understeer. The car will take you into a turn faster than you think you can go, and so you have a tendency to let off the gas or brake it, to your regret. C2 lets you kick the tail out and bring it back a lot easier.

    Also with a C4 you need to have the financial cushion to deal with more complex repair and maintenance. Repairs are not for the faint-hearted. Buyers are advised to visit a qualified shop and talk about the fee schedules.

    But by all means, buy what you like and what suits your driving skills, climate, etc.

    MODERATOR

  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    The C4 is a good car in the snow, no doubt. I know of one that is driven daily in the Swiss Alps! That said, its tires are still wide enough to act as sleds and the front is low enough that you can hire the thing out as a plow in snow over a couple of inches. But for driving on the normal roads of most of the US, I say go for it ... but don't expect it to handle as well as the C2 on nice dry stuff if you're an average driver. you have to be race qualified to get the C4 to go like the C2 does on track. But again, if I wanted the car for every day use in a climate with occasional snow and rain, I'd get enthused about the C4 (with snow tires).

    PS., I drive my RSA all winter (though not in storms if I can help it) with no help except for H-rated Pirelli Snowsport 210s.

    JW
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Now that BMW and MB are plaguing themselves with electronic issues, seems Porsche doesn’t want to be left behind. There are growing concerns about reliability issues with the 997. One guy reports having to bring his car in seven times. I’m not adverse to under-the-hood digital tech, but it seems to me that they are not prepared for a lot of this in the service bays.

    Just heard there is no dipstick on the 997. Not sure I care for that one even though my digital oil gauge seems dead-nuts accurate as compared to the stick. Are there other cars out there without dipsticks or is this an “innovation”?

    Will be interesting following the 997 especially after the 911 has been enjoying good reliability standings. I suppose the new Boxster will be right in there with this as it shares many systems and parts.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    I couldn't agree more with the direction of your comments. Porsche makes a good point, of course -- they are expanding their audience and, in the process, making a profit line they wouldn't have dreamed of 10 years ago. They are right that the passionate lovers of the old (i.e., aircooled) designs were a small but loyal number ... small enough they could never keep a modern car mfg. in business I suppose. But that tradition was one of simplicity, and reliability, and performance. Some would say Porsche has turned its backs on all of those.

    I disagree -- there is no way my 1993, even with its nearly $20k of mods -- can even begin to keep up with the most base of 997s. And those ten years older than mine are "slower" still.

    In one sense, of course, the "performance" has gone away (i.e., changed) in that it is now more about raw numbers and less about an experience ... a sound and feel and so on.

    Hundreds and hundreds of pounds of electronics and luxury bits have been added on that make the experience impossible and jeopardize the reliability, even in the race versions of the cars (which once were also the street versions of the Porsche!) I'm not so much worried about the guy taking in his luxo cruiser with all the leather and sound system and climate control and all that seven times as I am about Porsches suddenly not able to finish at LeMans or Daytona or Sebring -- that would surely destroy the tradition.

    My own fear is that the simplicity, which surely is being eliminated from Porsche (and is the point of your post), will ruin everything that Is Porsche right along with it as it is replaced by qualities (like luxury and high tech stuff) that are not part of the history.

    The good side is that it will certainly help the depreciation on my car, I guess.

    JW
  • Hello guys:

     

    I am a 19 year old, and a Dallas-based business owner. I own a internet/web based IT firm. I work in a pretty upscale residential/commericial neighborhood and I consider myself to be a business professional.

     

    Down the street from the office builing, we have a Porsche and Mercedes dealership named Park Place Motors. They have been in this area for many years and it is well known to cater to Dallas' upscale automotive clients (the rich...lol).

     

    I am considering buying a Porsche Boxster soon (the new redesigned model) and I was wondering what you all thought about a 19 year young man buying a car of this caliber. The only reason I am asking is because of the possible skeptism when it comes to a test drive. Do you think the dealer will take me seriously when it comes to test driving the car? Or should I go ahead and purchase the Porsche without ever driving it?

     

    Just wanted to hear some advice on this. I am thinking that the dealership will just brush me off and not take me seriously.

     

    Please help me!
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    If they don't take you seriously, go somewhere else. They all want to make money and yours is as good as anyone's. Of course you have to understand their pov -- it's a rare 19-yr-old who can afford a new anything, let alone a Porsche (even the 'base' model). I'm sure if you go in with enough background info (from Edmund's road tests, etc.) and don't act like a jerk but act like the businessman you've become ... and aim for one of the salespeople who looks like s/he has some experience ... you'll get someone to take you for a test drive. Just handle it like a business transaction.

     

    Definitely don't buy a Porsche -- any Porsche -- without a test drive. They are unusual cars with an unusual feel and fit, and you may not like it .... they aren't for everyone. There's a lot of feedback. The new Boxster is supposed to have more room, but it still could be a bit tighter than whatever you're used to. You don't say if you like to drive a manual, or if you enjoy the roughness of a sporty ride, and there are a lot of other issues that may make you decide to look elsewhere.

     

    And finally the question comes up as to whether you SHOULD buy a Boxster. If this is your first sports car, I'd suggest you avoid the 'S' model so you can learn to drive it well before you add enough power to allow you to cheat without learning to drive properly. If you're used to sports cars, on the other hand, you still have to ask yourself what you expect to get out of the car ... and determine if a Porsche will give you what you want. What I mean is this -- if this is primarily going to be transportation to/from your business, stick with a 2nd hand Camry as it's a better investment. A Boxster is a toy and a luxury depreciation, not transportation primarily. If you want a chick magnet (like I did at 19!) you can get something the girls will like a lot better for a lot less money.

     

    I don't mean to insult you, and hope I haven't, but I answered this way because of what you said and didn't say. You're not in the demographic for the car, but if you like the experience, the car could be the most fun you'll have sitting down! lol

     

    Btw, the local dealer doesn't expect to have Boxsters available for drives for awhile, so this may slow you down for a few months.

     

    JW
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    By all means, drive the Boxster as well as the "competition" and you'll note the differences right away.

    MODERATOR

  • I've been reviewing past discussions on the porsche 911's and from what i've gathered i should steer clear of the '91 - 92's no matter how sweet looking. Is that correct? One 91 i'm considering has low mileage (60,000) and a detailed maintenance report. The other has less info ... with about 40,000 miles.

    On the other hand I did find an '88 at a dealer which I'll be looking at today with 50,000. Any suggestions? thxs,
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    Yes, as a first time Porsche buyer I would agree that the early 90s cars can be risky. It really depends on what has been done to it.

     

    You NEED to buy this book from Amazon by Peter Zimmerman! Best $20 you'll ever spend.

     

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0963172670/qid=1104- - 855701/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-7816522-6856635?v=glance&s=books

     

    Host

    MODERATOR

  • lopezlopez Posts: 2
    I have a 996 1999 cabrio and the seal for the plastic window is breaking down. The dealer said that I have to replace the entire top. This car has been well kept and garaged. Does anyone knows why or an alternative to replacing the top?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    Seems to be the way convertible tops are going. New Corvette, same deal, whole new top.

     

    The problem is that the labor to remove the top so as to repair it is so high that you might as well replace the top. This is the logic and it makes sense I guess.

     

    So is the window separating from the top, and you are getting a leak. Is that the issue?

    MODERATOR

  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    Try a local auto upholstery/top shop -- they may be able to help .... or not, but worth a check before handing over the swag for a new top.

     

    JW
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    I don't know why it's Jan. 21 and I'm only now finding out this topic has had traffic -- the new software has been out to lunch maybe?

     

    One of the reasons there are so many good deals around for the 90-91s, trialfast, is because of that reputation. And ten years ago, it would have been correct. But, in my opinion, it is likely no longer valid, and a good looking deal on a good looking 90-91 is truly a good deal in all likelihood. Here's why:

     

    The 90-91 got a reputation for bad oil leaks from the Porsche experiment with a seal-less case, it had a problem with its dual-mass flywheel, and the distributor sometimes wreaked havoc due to not being vented so the ozone buildup inside would corrupt the belt which would then break with, potentially, catastrophic results. Sounds bad, right?

     

    But -- if a car is still running and has been owned by a Porsche fan .... all of that stuff has been fixed or is not going to be an issue -- it's been 14 years, after all. Here's the scoop -- in 92, Porsche revised the flywheel. (Most owners have since upgraded the flywheel on their 90-91.) In '92, Porsche switched to a sealed case -- badly leaking cases were upgraded. Many (most?) never sprang a serious leak and, while some people are paranoid about a dime-size drop on the garage floor, the fact is that you have 14 some quarts to work with! Finally, the distributor vent costs 75 cents for you to fix, $20 at the dealer, with a kit that was made available in 92 or 93. (But if the vent needs to be added, you will probably want to change the belt to be safe .... that is more expensive.)

     

    The fact is that the 911, beginning with the C4 in 89 (and the C2 in 90) is a major step forward over previous 911s, though purists from the good ole days will argue the point. Those who like the air-cooled machines that were marketed from 90-98, however, conduct their argument with torque and horsepower -- you just can't beat it! The car is a delightful beast.

     

    The 964 was available from 89-94 and prices for it are quite a bit cheaper than for the 993 (95-98). This is because people felt the 964 had awkward looking bumpers, or so I understand, but of course 964 owners are perfectly happy with their choice. 993 owners have a more powerful car yet, and a style that is a little more modern with the swept-back headlights, a look that, again, is a matter of taste. They have bid the prices on the 993 version up beyond reasonable value and they are only now starting to depreciate quickly. If you want one, I'd suggest buying a 964 for acouple of years to tide you over, then pick up a good 993 when the prices quit falling so fast.

     

    The book Shifty recommended is a good one, but if you get a 964, you'll really want "Porsche 911: Enthusiast's Companion, Carrera 2, Carrera 4 and Turbo: 1989-1994" by Adrian Streather. A lot of stuff you hear about Porsches is more legend than fact, but Streather's book is all fact and backed up with actual research.

     

    My own car is a 93, just in case you wanted to know.

     

    Good luck in your decision. Have you driven one of the cars, yet? Any car you are interested in should have COMPLETE service records -- if not, walk away. And any car should have a thorough going over by an independent Porsche mechanic in a PPI (usually $150-$250) -- don't go to the dealer for this as dealer mechanics are no longer used to working on the air-cooled machines and often aren't all that sure of what they are looking at.

     

    JW
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,624
    There was some kind of glitch with this thread.. I read messages #25 and #26 when they were posted, but for some reason they popped back up earlier this afternoon.. I suspect the same thing happened to you...

     

    Good info on the 964... interesting..

     

    regards,

    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    Streather's book would be good for the "newer" models, definitely. Zimmerman's book does cover the problem with the early 90s cars, though, and it's enough to make you gulp and swallow.

     

    Sellers of old Porsches come in three sizes....the Good (Angels sent to help us), the Bad (ignorant) and the Ugly Bad (treacherous fiends).

    MODERATOR

  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,362
    shifty ?

     

    I had a early 1982 928...

     

    it never gave us any trouble....it was great....wife OKed another 928... so I am searching....
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,838
    Mine has been great, a real trooper. Only problems were:

     

    1. Previous owner's neglect

     

    2. Stupid electrical glitches, like car alarm, electric door locks.

     

    But when I bought my used Porsches (this is #4, I've had one of each 914, 911, 912 and 928) I followed my own advice (for a change). I bought cars with a recorded history, had a good shop go over it with a fine tooth comb, and bargained a price to allow enough budget to bring the car "up to a safe and reliable standard".

     

    Each time it worked out for me. There were no unpleasant surprises. Sure, I had to throw some money at each of these cars, but I had fun and while I never "made" money, I never took a bath on one, either.

     

    The newer Porsches I can't quite afford---well, I could buy a mid 90s but then I'd have to do without other luxuries like health insurance. If this year is more prosperous I'd like to upgrade to an SC cabriolet. I'm shy of the 90-91s and won't buy one personally. I don't care who did what to it. I'm stubborn about that.

     

    The new ones I've driven (2004) are of course a dream to drive compared to the old iron I'm pushin', but in some ways the older cars have a lot to offer as well.

     

    I love that V-8 thunder and that King Kong gearshift on the 928. At the end of the day I feel I've been flying an old Mustang, not an F-16.

     

    sorry for rambling. Porsche people get like this.

    MODERATOR

  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    "Porsche people get like this."

     

    Thank God, I thought my mind was going! lol

     

    JW
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