Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

By heavens, you're RIGHT! :surprise: I did own two Japanese cars---shows you how lasting an impression they made on me. :P

Oh, WAIT!!! I also owned, many years ago, one of those little Honda 600 coupes....now THAT car I really really liked. I wish I still had it. I think I enjoyed it because it was powered by a motorcycle engine, and I felt at home with that. True, I had the life expectancy of a Russian solider at Stalingrad, but other than that.....

qbrozen

hmmmm...

Should it concern me that this is less than half the asking price of any comparable LS400 I've found so far?

texases

"Should it concern me that this is less than half the asking price of any comparable LS400 I've found so far? "

You know it should...maybe a bargain, maybe undisclosed flood/crash history...particularly flood, given recent events.

qbrozen

His description claims it has no previous collision damage. Flood is still possible, I suppose. But I would imagine it would be disclosed for the asking price. If undisclosed, might as well ask normal price.

stickguy

let us know after you buy it!

Hard to tell. 20 YO complicated car with 176K on it. Seems like a good price to me.

Mr_Shiftright

Car was in a collision in 1997, is pretty much miled up, so the price is exactly market correct, and perhaps a bit high actually. It looks like about a $1000 car to me.

I usually see these selling in clean condition, no accident history, for around $2500 with fewer miles. Occasionally you'll see a very very clean low miler (under 100K) selling in the $3K range.

See this one. I bet you could get it for $2200 and it's got a new engine.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/2590514678.html

qbrozen

sure, I'll drive right on over to the west coast. ;b

Collision in '97 you say? Are there any other details listed? Or just that it was an accident? I could live with just an accident, especially at the price. All other '90-'92 LS400s I've found have 175k'ish miles (oddly enough) and are priced at 2995 or higher.

Actually, there is one other one near my house that has 123k and is priced at $2500. Only one pic and it doesn't look very clean, but I'll probably go take a look to confirm.

Excluding those 2 Lexi, here is the shopping list I have on hand at the moment:
'91 525i 139k $2995 (posted earlier)
'85 735i 98k $3900 (posted earlier)
'91 300SE 136k $2000
'82 380SEL 66k(!) $1975
'87 420SEL 174k $2975
'87 420SEL 169k $3995
'91 LS400 174k $3500

The autoX tomorrow is only 2 miles from the 525, so I'll be popping over there to see that.

fintail

All of the W126 look good to me, of course. That 380 is a Euro model, if it matters. The 300SE would probably be the easiest to work on yourself.

They can rust, so in that region, look it over carefully.

qbrozen

Does it matter if its a Euro model?
Can I even get parts for that engine?
Wife balks at cloth, but those look so immaculate. Wonder if the miles are for real.

fintail

You'll be able to get any parts - the model was sold here too, but it is grey market, so I can't speak for the emissions stuff, which would be pretty primitive in 1982 and maybe exempt by now anyway.

The car gives me the impression that it sat around for awhile...it's impossible to find that fabric on this side of the pond as it was never sold here (W126 would have tex standard on diesel, leather on all others with special order velour), so it could be all original. When a car hits 30 years old, who knows what the story could be.

Mr_Shiftright

It just says collision with another car, no details.

qbrozen

I don't think anything is exempt here in NJ unless you pay the fees to register it as a historic car.

qbrozen

thanks for the info, shifty.

Wife keeps saying "blah" to the Lexi, which is pretty annoying since it is most likely the nicest riding and most reliable choice.(?)

xwesx

Q, considering that the photos have a date stamp on them of 2008, I would say, "yes, you should be concerned!" :P

xwesx

If that's the worst response you get from her, you're doing far, FAR better than me. If only we could all have such wives!

texases

Has she driven one? They are awful nice...good pickup, too.

Mr_Shiftright

The early 400LS does have some built-in defects...I think the steering gear failed prematurely on some models and of course the type the leather was not durable. I haven't researched their weaknesses in a while but that's what I recall.

For the money, if it's a straight and true car, that's a nice ride for the money but about as exciting to drive as running a Prius through a school zone at 25 mph.

qbrozen

yeah, I saw all of his photos have a 2008 date. could just be they don't know how to program the camera. haha.

qbrozen

funny you should mention the leather when I just found this one. That's an awfully worn seat (and floormat) for just 80k.

texases

Man, why not spend an hour with some leather cleaner on that? Would add $500 to the price!

Mr_Shiftright

A lot of them look like that. Same with Volvos and Saabs of that period. I think they purchased leather that dressed well, looked great but simply didn't hold up. Probably when you see an LS400 with nice leather you are seeing real diligence regarding treatment of the hides, on the part of the owner.

tjc78

If that floormat started life off at ivory its pretty damn bad IMO. As for the leather, its obvious that it has never been cleaned and conditioned. I would be afraid what would happen if it was really scrubbed clean and treated. It may just get worse.

Whenever I see a car up for sale that the owner couldn't even shake out the floot mats and vacuum the trunk I was wonder if it was even cared for at all.

fintail

Yeah they did that, actually that one in the pic isn't too bad, I have seen worse - same for period Acuras. On early Lexus, I have seen discolored and kind of peeling steering wheels too - that would drive me crazy.

oldbearcat

andres3: OK here's my list - I'm 65 now and bought my first car at age 14.
10 Chrysler products, 1 Rambler, 4 Oldsmobiles, 4 Chevrolets, 1 Saturn, 5 Hondas, 5 Fords, 3 Jaguars, and a Mercedes Benz. I bought the first Honda (very low mileage used Accord) because I got a great deal on it, and, had good luck with it. Bought Honda #2 because of experience with Honda #1. Honda #2 ( new Accord) was very troublesome and traded off with 20K on it. Honda #3 and #4 were purchased for my kids to drive to college because they insisted that's what they wanted. #3 & #4 were both low mileage used Civics,and required a fair amount of repairs to keep them going. #3 got sold at 86K because it was burning oil badly and needed some expensive repairs. #4 blew its engine at just over 100K. We put a used engine in it, and, sold it. #5 appeared because wife wanted a little SUV badly and aggravated me to trade my Saturn for it. Along the way, I've had 1 bad Chevrolet, 3 bad Chryslers, and 1 cranky Jaguar ( all bought new) as well. Hence my statement in my original post.

Regards:
Oldbearcat

oldbearcat

Texas:

At 30k I put a set of Yokohama's on it. It did quiet it down a bit, but, still very noisy.

Regards:
Oldengineer

qbrozen

Wow. That's a lot of bad cars. out of the ...whatever it was...20-something cars I've had, none were ever truly troublesome. I've only ever been stranded 3 times in my life and all 3 times were my own fault (twice out of gas and once with a flat tire and broken wheel key).

The most severe issues I've ever had were 2 bad head gaskets and a bad tranny. Trans rebuild was on an 11-year old CJ7 3-sped stick. Dad did that in the garage for $150. First head gasket was in a 90k-mile 4runner 22RE. Took me about 20 straight hours over a weekend home from college. Second was an attempt to repair an oil leak in our first 190e. After I realized I couldn't get the pulleys off without removing the whole front of the car, I threw in the towel.

Other than that, everything has been pretty typical maintenance or wear items.

oldbearcat

Yeah - I've had some really bad ones. I had a Chevy Celebrity Eurosport wagon (mid 80's), bought new, that was towed in 6 times for computer problems, and, once for a collapsed rear suspension - all this in 36K miles. I bought a new Honda Accord in 1991 that, in 20K miles, blew the A/C lines off, had to have a brake job, had to have the headlight buckets replaced because they filled with water, and could not be aligned - it went through 3 or 4 sets of tires while I owned it. I traded it off for a new Plymouth at 20K. The last one I'll mention was a 2005 Chrysler Sebring that blew its transmission 3 times, and, had various other problems while under warranty - I dumped it as soon as the warranty ran out. I too do much of the work on my cars, and, most of them went to 100K or beyond with only typical maintenance. I'm currently restoring a 1948 Chevy.

Regards:
Oldbearcat

qbrozen

So we drove all over the state yesterday to view most of those cars I listed.

The 525 was sold.

The 380 and one of the 420s, which were at the same dealer, were both in a sorry state. Apparently he feels leaving the windows open all the time is OK. He also took one of those courses in creative photography. Upon viewing, I had to pull out my printouts and even confirm they were the same cars. And, yes, they were. It was interesting to now notice that his pics managed to JUST cut off any bad areas of the cars. Didn't care to drive either.

Next up was the 300SEL that seemed to be from a private seller. Nope. Curbstoner. Car was in far worse shape than claimed. Didn't care to drive.

Then on to the other 420 at a dealer. Man, was this thing bad. He pulled it out of their garage and I immediately shook my head, as you could see the different colored body panels coming into the light. He then asked me "what don't you like about it?" Really??

We then went for a LONG drive into the bowels of Jersey to see the old 735. This turned out to be a mixed bag. Not quite the condition claimed, but not bad. Zero rust. Paint was fresh, but not paricularly well done. Passable. Had an exhaust leak, it idled a bit rough, the AC was not up to snuff, and the steering was vague. But it had great power, ram through the RPMs strong, and shifted fantastic. Seats were nice and all electrics worked. Not worth what he was asking and I was getting the impression he wasn't going to flex as much as I wanted. BUT, in the end, and what broke the deal, was that it was an ex-smoker's car. Wife sat in it and tried to convince herself she could get past it, but she couldn't.

Final stop of the day was one of the LS400s. Wife still isn't keen on these, but after all the failures of the day, she at least wanted to take a look. It was another letdown. I knew it would be because I called beforehand and the salesperson was not too chatty about the condition. I just hoped it would be passable enough to warrant a test drive and see if she liked it as a choice of car anyway .... it wasn't passable enough. Good deal of rust over the fenders and some spots of bondo work done by a 5-year-old.

Ah well. Moving on. Have 5 more I found last night that I've sent feelers out for. Couple of 350SDs. What's a good limit on these? One has 220k miles and the other 250. For some reason, the 250 FEELS like its pushing it, but the 220 strikes me as young for such a car. Am I crazy?

stickguy

Yes, to your last question. I believe you are crazy.

I can't even remember, what is the point of this exercise? To get a luxo barge (which I thought the 540 was supposed to be for you)?

I do, however, know where there is a clean. low mile LS400 (90 or 91). But not likely for sale. A friend inherited his fathers car a few years back, and it became his sons HS car (kid is off at college now, not sure if he ever took it with him). I believe it has low (as in 50s) miles on it.

He did have to do one of the expensive repairs on it. Either a gauge cluster, or maybe front end/steering rack. Something that I seem to recall being an Achilles heel of this model.

qbrozen

Actually, this is now for the wife. I've got my 540 and GTI and probably selling the MR2. She has the van, and she is miling it up dangerously fast. Not only does she commute with it every day, but she drives 20 mins to the dojo 3 nights a week and 30 mins to the gym both weekend days.

So its something to keep the miles off the vehicle we are making expensive payments on. The reason why we are looking at luxo cars is mostly because that's all she will tolerate. It also is mostly because that's the majority of the clean 20-25 year old sedans you will find.

Thanks for the lead on the car that's not for sale. :P

Mr_Shiftright

Yes you're crazy. 220K is a LOT of miles on any car. Not saying they might not have life left in them, but you have to pay rock bottom money for a car like that. I've always treated cars with 250K+ on them as basically valueless. Or as I used to say "totaled by time and use".

Have you considered an older Infiniti Q45? How 'bout an old Cadillac?--at least you can get $49 alternators for them at Autozone when they break.

Geez you got a lot of junk out there. I don't even see heaps like that out on the west coast. Well I do, but usually in wrecking yards or on the back 40 of artichoke farms. :P

Too bad about the old 735---those old ones were very good cars.

qbrozen

well, we're going to look at the diesel with 250k. Wife is in love with the pics.

fintail

I had a bad feeling about that 380 from the pic, as the trim looked weathered.

I don't think you want a high mileage 350SD/L unless it has had a mechanical rebuild or a proven track record of good maintenance, those engines have some known issues (I think head gaskets). I'd want documents.

Mr_Shiftright

Things you can look for on the 350SD

Sagging rear end (worn hydro-pneumatic compensator

Fiddle with the AC/Heat--if it doesn't work, you got $$$

A diesel engine like this should start INSTANTLY--if it cranks and cranks, y'all got issues.

Filthy engine --- speaks for itself

fintail

Filthy car speaks for itself too. With a little care, even a high mileage W126 can look amazing, with repair costs not being cheap, you want one with some care.

Here's the wiki for the engines in those cars

qbrozen

yeah, read that this morning. Thanks. It didn't strike me as anything too widespread or worrisome. Bad head gasket is easily diagnosed.

We also found a 535 in the same area as one of the 350SDs, so we'll be leaving shortly to visit both. I'd still rather have the bimmer as long as it checks out. Asking price is quite reasonable, too.

explorerx4

Did you mean 'I' or 'it'?
I remember the first time I saw a Honda 600. I was at my friend's house around the corner, and it was parked in the driveway of the house next door.
It was like really? REALLY? (Top Gear USA).
Funny thing is, a few years before that the neighbor on the other side showed up with a stainless steel T'Bird.
That was a different sort of 'Really'?

Mr_Shiftright

No, I ran the crap out of that Honda 600. I think the only thing that happened was one time it broke an axle shaft on some mountain pass. :surprise: I had it towed ten miles or so to a gas station, left it there until I could get a tow bar. Easy fix. But I used to wind that thing up to maybe 75-80 mph--at least that's what the speedo said---it felt like maybe...oh, 240-260 mph .

explorerx4

22RE needed a repair? Expect a lot of hate mail form Toyota fans. :P

explorerx4

Are we talking about the same thing?
Not a Honda 600 motorcycle.

oldfarmer50

I recently adopted my son's 1984 Corvette 5.7L 131,000 miles. It needs the following:

Ball joints

Front pads and rotors

Valve cover gaskets

The AC doesn't work and the seats have a few rips and stains.

The first three item can be fixed for about $750, the AC might be pricey, maybe $1000 if it can be converted to the new format and a wild guess at recovering the seats with the same type of cloth is $500-1000 (but I really have no idea).

So I'm wondering how far to go with this project. It's a $5k car at best.

explorerx4

Seat covers?

Mr_Shiftright

That's not a good year for the C4 unfortunately. The ball joints have to be done for safety reasons but you may or may not know that a little bit of play is acceptable--maybe up to 1/8th inch. Brakes of course are a must-do, and valve cover gaskets are no big deal.

I think the most I'd try with the AC (if you really need it) is to recharge it with R12, presuming the compressor still turns and is not seized. If it's seized, no way you do anything about that, just kiss it goodbye, as the entire system is filled with metallic debris.

Yeah, a set of seat covers.

The reason nobody wants an '84 is that it has the old type of fuel injection and there's not much you can do to modify/improve the motor without extensive customization of the FI system. Also does it have the dreaded Doug Nash transmission?

stickguy

do the brakes and ball joints, and throw on some duct tape and Pep Boys seat covers.

Ignore the valve covers (you aren't going to be putting many miles on, so just carry a quart of oil!) unless they really are pretty cheap, and you don't like drips.

AC? forget it, unless like Shifty said it is just a recharge issue. Just don't drive it when it is particularly hot, otherwise just roll down the windows.

Toy cars don't IMO really need functional AC, especially where you live. Maybe if you live in the desert, but not upstate.

oldfarmer50

"...does it have the dreaded Doug Nash transmission?..."

It's an auto tranny. Shifts fine.

Thanks for confirming what I was thinking. I'll probably fix the ball joints, brakes and valve cover gaskets for sure although the brakes have a few thousands miles left in them so i might wait until next spring. The AC might be functional as it worked somewhat last year when it was purchased. I didn't think you could still get R-12 legally and since it would just leak out again I think I'll just pop the taga top if it gets hot.

I've heard that the CFI fuel system can have problems but the car runs smooth on the road. My indie mechanic knows the system and can work on it.

The seats are just a vanity thing. There is a woman at work who recovers seats as a second job so I might check out prices.

Otherwise I'll just bomb around in it for fun until the kid wants it back.

qbrozen

So the quarter-million-mile mercedes was disappointing. The way the guy advertised it and the way he talked it up on the phone, I had high hopes for it. Man, what a basket case. Seats were nice. That's about all the good I can say. Ran like hell and under the hood was frightening.

535 was SOOOO close. Looked really good inside and out and under the hood. Ran good. I was thinking this was an easy buy .... then I crawled under it. Ugh. At some point, it looks like either something was run over or someone jacked it up incorrectly. There was about a 12 inch stretch where the lower rocker meets the floor that was crushed and had since rusted and rotted. I was able to poke my finger right through up to the carpet. So that did the car in.

Mr_Shiftright

Can you get in and out of it okay? :P

Yes you can buy R12. All you need is a license. It's a bit pricey though so you want to make sure the system has no leaks. Shoot, there may be some R12 in there that could be saved.

If your indie guy knows CFI then you should have no trouble with it. Do not let monkeys touch it, however.

These are fun cars and very competent, if a bit rough riding. I hope you don't have a bad back or anything.

oldfarmer50

"...Can you get in and out of it okay?..."

I can get in and out with only a few groans but being 6'2" makes riding around in it interesting. My head rubs against the unpadded rough headliner. Another reason to take the top off.

When you say rough handling, that's an understatement. :sick: No problem for my back since I have to drive it pretty much laying down.

Thanks again all for the advice.

Mr_Shiftright

Well among all their attributes, the interior quality and design of C4 and C5 Corvettes has not been among them.

qbrozen

And, god help me, I like it.