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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,144
    Do you recall that black 1973 Chevrolet Bel Air at Carlisle that only had a 250 inline six? That motor must've had to work mighty hard to move that mass!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    I think that by 1973, the difference in value among the V8s would not be very great---probably the 340 would be top dog but it would be neck and neck with the higher HP big blocks.

    The only way to get a lot of value out of a '73 Charger would be, ironically, to modify it with a "real" engine that could put out serious horsepower.

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  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    The only way to get a lot of value out of a '73 Charger would be, ironically, to modify it with a "real" engine that could put out serious horsepower.

    That is exactly what I was thinking, you certainly couldn't hurt its value by replacing the original engine. Actually, if that car checks out and looks good you could drop in a nice Hemi crate engine, maybe retrofit A/C (if it didn't have it) and have a nice cruiser for maybe 10-12K.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    Oh you would definitely increase value by replacing the original boat anchor engine.

    I'd opt for a beefy 440, maybe a 6 pak. Hemis are very nasty engines to drive around on the street. They don't idle well, they overheat.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,897
    Do you recall that black 1973 Chevrolet Bel Air at Carlisle that only had a 250 inline six? That motor must've had to work mighty hard to move that mass!

    Yeah, I remember it vaguely. Did it have a manual or automatic, or do you remember? One dog that always sticks in my mind was a 1977 Cutlass Supreme sedan that CR tested, with a 260 V-8. 0-60 came up in around 21.6 seconds! It was in a comparison with a Caprice with a 305, an LTD-II with a 302, and either a Fury or Monaco with a 318. The other cars, while no powerhouses themselves, were at least good for 0-60 in about 13 seconds.

    That Bel Air, if it had a manual, might have been slightly quicker than the Cutlass. I believe the Cutlass had a/c as well, which would slow it down. And by that time, the midsized cars got so heavy that a V-8 '77 Cutlass Supreme probably weight about as much as 6-cyl '73 Chevy! Even though the Cutlass just had a 260, it probably didn't weigh much less than one with a 403 would have.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,531
    "Hemis are very nasty engines to drive around on the street. They don't idle well, they overheat. "

    Not THAT Hemi, THIS "Hemi":
    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    that's worth more than the freakin' car! :surprise:

    long block + engine management system + lotsa $$$ labor

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  • texasestexases Posts: 5,531
    "that's worth more than the freakin' car!"

    Oh, yeah. But it'd be a fun project, just resign myself to $0.25 on the dollar...maybe...
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    that's worth more than the freakin' car!

    long block + engine management system + lotsa $$$ labor


    Find a wrecked newer 300C, swap it all over. Done! Weekend job! ;)

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    one of those 20-day weekends maybe.

    Let's see--what would one have to do?

    1. Get used engine and engine management system
    2. Prepare/fabricate motor mounts
    3. Fabricate cooling system
    4. Adapt to Tremec 5-speed
    5. fabricate drive shaft
    6. splice engine management computer and harness into existing wiring
    7. Install custom gas tank and fuel pump
    8. Fabricate custom exhaust
    9. Fabricate gauge pack/sensors
    10. install clutch pedal assembly
    11 install hydraulic clutch system

    so, that takes care of the first day ! :P

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  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I guess I wasn't the only one who thought of it!

    Car Craft

    Andre, what a sleeper one of your Fifth Aves would be!

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,897
    Hemis are very nasty engines to drive around on the street. They don't idle well, they overheat.

    Would a more modern, reproduction Crate Hemi still have all of the same problems that the original 426 did, or would they have worked out any of the kinks?

    One nice thing about the modern "Hemi" (I use quotes because I hear it's not a true Hemi, but rather a pent-roof) is that, for the power it puts out, it gets surprisingly good fuel economy. In my Ram, for example, it's rated 14/20, which really isn't bad for 385 hp in something that's probably pushing 5,000 lb. I've averaged about 14.5 mpg since I've had it, but that's been mostly local driving, and the one time I took it on a trip, I did have a bit of a heavy foot.

    I'd imagine a transplant into something like that Charger would probably yield similar, if not better fuel economy. While the Charger would have a much higher coefficient of drag, it would have a lot less frontal area, and weigh a lot less.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,897
    Andre, what a sleeper one of your Fifth Aves would be!

    If I had tons of money to blow, I've actually thought about putting a big block in one of my R-bodies. While they never came with anything that big, a 360 smallblock being the largest offering, the engine bay isn't that much different from the previous B-body (Coronet/Monaco, the "New, Small Fury", Cordoba, Magnum XE), so a big block will fit.

    Supposedly, if you simply ditch the Lean Burn, and go back to one of the simpler, early 70's distributor, carb and electronic ignition setups, the later 318's and 360's can put out some fairly decent power.

    A modern Hemi would be a pretty fun transplant, as well!
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,144
    How hard could it be? I saw the guys on the Speed Channel do it in half an hour withoust even busting a knuckle or getting their hands dirty! :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,897
    I've seen a PT Cruiser with a 426 Hemi under the hood, so I'm sure converting a '73 Charger to the modern Hemi should be more doable than that. Maybe the electronics and such would be more complex, but the physical/fabrication stuff shouldn't be as bad, considering there would be plenty of room under the hood of a Charger. I imagine the biggest problem would be getting a modern 5-6 speed automatic to fit...you'd most likely have to cut up the floorpan around the transmission hump, and fabricate something to accommodate the larger transmission.

    At least, I'm presuming these new transmissions are larger, physically, then the old Torqueflite 904 and 727. I've heard that when people started putting the 4-speed truck Torqueflite in older cars, they had to modify the transmission hump.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    Well as that article pointed out, this is no job for a rookie. You can apparently adapt small block transmissions to the new "Hemi" but not big block. Then of course you have all the electronics to deal with, new cooling system, special starter motor, exhausts, new alternator, power steering pump, gas tank, oil pan (new one won't clear the chassis) blah blah.

    This type of project could take months, maybe a year--not all working on the car of course, but tracking stuff down, making it work, making it fit, paying for it :P

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    The subject has come up before, about the cost to restore a 60s car. We all pretty much agreed that if you handed one over to a professional shop, the bill would bury you forever in the car.

    But what if you did most of the work yourself?

    Old Cars Weekly tracked the restoration of a '66 Mustang Coupe done by two guys who swapped labor (he helped his buddy build a garage, and his buddy helped with bodywork and assembly of new parts).

    In any event, even with very little outside labor charges, the receipts added up to $30,000...which still exceeds the value of a restored '66 Mustang coupe---but at least there's a chance that one day these costs and the value of the car will even out.

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  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I think at some point for the person doing the job, part of the cost is just "in the hobby". Some guys play golf, some are audiophiles, others blow thousands of bucks on classic cars.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    True enough, but spending $80,000 and ending up with a $20,000 car isn't exactly a "chump change" kind of loss.

    $60K is a LOT of golf or sound equipment.

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  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    No not at all. I guess one's bank roll determines how far you get in. I'm sure this is the reason there are so many unfinished projects,

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    It seems like the unfinished projects are not in the hands of people of considerable means--it's more the "little guy"--the middle class folk---who get stuck in restorations.

    The rich can just write checks and the poor can barely get started on one, so it's the 50K--150K income crowd who can get in over their heads.

    Also the folks using the home equity as an ATM machine got into trouble.

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  • boomchekboomchek Vancouver, BC, CanadaPosts: 5,108
    I was browsing Craigslist and stumbled upon this 63 190D fintail that needs a head gasket.

    Worth fixing? How much would a head gasket job cost on this? And why doesn't it have side view mirrors?

    63 190D for sale

    2007 BMW 328i Sports Pkg, 1993 Honda Accord EXR (my 33rd car).

  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,560
    Worth fixing for someone who loves diesel fintails, but not something to flip. I don't know what it could cost to fix, but that interior hurts my eyes. It appears to be wearing 14" or maybe even 15" wheels off a later car. It would have a driver's side mirror - passenger mirror is a rare option. Maybe it was lost, car looks repainted. Chrome looks decent. If it the body is pristine and chrome is good, and assuming it isn't driveable, more like a $1500 car on a good day. Oh yeah, a 190D will be SLOW.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    edited March 2013
    Well whenever you open up an old engine, who knows? The head could be cracked--that happens on old diesels quite often. Then it gets pricey.

    And of course, once the head is off you want to do the valves, right?

    yeah I think $1500 is more than fair---it has the wrong interior, too. Bumperettes missing, front bumper dinged up.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,897
    I was flipping through the channels last nite, and came across "Fun with Dick and Jane" on Antenna TV. In one nighttime shot, there's a quick glance of a Fintail, in sort of a medium/dark gray hue. Must have been a really obscure, quick shot, because it doesn't show up in the IMCDB.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,560
    I was thinking about this car. It might be cheaper to simply replace the seats with a junkyard set rather than fix the upholstery - tex holds up well and it's not a hard job. I doubt an upholsterer could redo it cheaper, even if he's your friend.

    For the engine, if it has many needs, it will quickly pass the point where an engine transplant would be easier and cheaper. Maybe drop in a healthy 240D or even 300D unit into it - I have no doubt it would fit without much mess, and the car needs the power.

    If you keep it stock, here's what you get to look forward to

    So say $500 for junkyard seats, $2500 for engine work, and if it has no other needs (and you pay $1500 for it), you're in $4500, which might be as deep as you want to go, unless its a labor of love. Price goes up with a higher purchase price or more needs. Paying asking price has you in for 7K, which will be tough to recoup.

    Were the bumper guards standard or optional on these? I know on W111s, they were an option - my car has them ("Gardmeister" brand, real name).
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,560
    I'll have to keep an eye out for that.

    If you like odd old films , there's one called "Pretty Maids All In a Row", where Rock Hudson plays a psychotic high school counselor, and drives a car virtually identical to mine, same color.
  • boomchekboomchek Vancouver, BC, CanadaPosts: 5,108
    Yeah, you don't see too many for sale, I was more curious than actually wanting it. I figured the engine issue could be more than just a gasket and you probably have to find a good mechanic who knows these cars. I doubt that even a Mercedes dealer would touch one.

    2007 BMW 328i Sports Pkg, 1993 Honda Accord EXR (my 33rd car).

  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,560
    If everything on the car was fine, the price would also be fine. It could be a fun car, if you don't plan to do freeway driving.

    I suspect the old MB dealer in Van would touch it, but it might scare off some of the other branches. It would be financial suicide to take it to a dealer though, simply due to labor rates. A car like that needs an old timer independent, and an owner who is patient.
  • bhill2bhill2 Posts: 1,333
    OMG! The 190D in that video was an automatic! I can't even imagine what it would be like to drive it. I'm surprised it moves at all.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv, 2001 Jaguar XK cnv, 1985 MB 380SE (the best of the lot)

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