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Any downside to buying a hybrid?

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Comments

  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,785
    "Even when Low Sulfer engines come in ...If EVER.... they will they will be hard to find...at least until there is a heavy volume of Diesel Cars...and some states will not allow the Cars or the Fuel for emvironmental reasons....

    Hybrids are Clean..Quiet...Pass no foul oders...

    Little or No Hi-breds in europe...They are made in Japan...Which can't even Make enough to satisify the US market...Why would they bother to try and break in a new market until they have enough production."

    Well, here are the responses, in order:

    If the low sulfur diesel becomes available and the manufacturors make the vehicles, CARB will allow them into California. Emissions are the whole point behind low sulfur diesel.

    If they are allowed in, they will not have odors. Quiet is another story; we'll have to wait and see.

    There are few hybrids in Europe because they are not very much better at MPG than diesels, which sell wildly over there and are very popular. It is not a matter of production, it is a matter of market interest.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,785
    I don't usually respond point-by-point, but I suppose occaisionally it is warranted.

    1- Resale costs are currently better than most cars. There have been a few articles on this already. Bottom line... resale costs remain better than average.

    The question is not resale costs now, but in about 3-4 years; that is an unknown.

    2-Battery issues....just that NOT. 150,000 mile warranty in CA/NY etc.... 100,000 elsewhere.

    How about at 250K miles? Here in California, cars don't rust out.

    3-The Prius with rear seats down can swallow 2 bikes. The back seat is more roomy than an Acura RL.

    I afraid I just don't understand that response. My specification was seating for 5 and 40 cubic feet, and the example provided is room for 2 and two bikes. Well, I grant that is true, and is exactly the downside of most hybrids (the 3 SUV models being the exception, but they don't get really high MPG).

    4- I achieve low 50's mileage, keep temp 74 and drive 60-65 on the highway. No mods to my driving style at all. When I thrash it and drive 80-85, I get low 40's.

    I think your example demonstrates the point quite well: You are limiting your use of A/C, and if you don't drive carefully, your mileage decreases by 20%. And at the lower number, you are approaching MPG that can be achieved by a similar sized ICE vehicle running with A/C blowing at full blast.

    5- Who drives a conventional car off road?

    You may have missed the fact that this item applied to the hybrid SUVs.

    6- High cost? That's your opinion. Paying 26k for a fully loaded Prius with all the technology is a bargain. A fully loaded Civic 06 will cost 21.5k. Depends what you can afford. To me, it was the cheapest car I've purchased in quite some time. Also my favorite car of all time.

    Thanks for the example; I think you have demonstrated that the Prius costs $5,500 more than a similarly equipped Civic. I can't vouch for those numbers, but (if accurate) that is about 25% more, pretty significant in my book. The question is not affordability, which varies with income; it is the difference in price compared with other cars of similar size.

    7- Electricity and gas have been partners in cars for years. How does your spark plug ignite?

    Sorry; I should have been more specific so people wouldn't get confused. The spark plug ignites via electricity to explode gasoline, which provides the power to the wheels via the transmission. This is a well known and widely understood process. Hybrids use electric motors to power the wheels in various combinations with conventional engines. It is that mixture of propulsions that is somewhat foreign to some consumers. That is a different concept, and not as easy for people to understand.

    Anyway, I'm glad you like your wheels. Enjoy your Prius; it is a fine car.
  • I guess it is a great car, otherwise YOU wouldn't be focusing on it that much. That certainly is the sincerest form of flattery. With respect to your 250,000 expectations, I am certain it can be achieved. Just as you expect your CRV to get to that milestone as well (without engine work or a transmission replacement). Did I fail to mention that 94% satisfaction rating from CR?
  • haefrhaefr Posts: 600
    "Did I fail to mention that 94% satisfaction rating from CR?"

    Initial CR satisfaction ratings on new models are like J.D. Powers & Associates Initial Quality awards - all too often much ado about nothing.
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    I seriously doubt that. I believe people truly have passion for the Prius. It is certainly evidenced in this forum and others. It's success continues to amaze me. I look forward to more fuel efficient hybrids from Toyota. CR sent out surveys to all their readers and I believe that the 94% rating is unprecedented. It is nothing like JD Powers which is funded by the auto industry.
  • Consumer Reports provides a very good survey, but it is not statistically correct because it only polls those who subsribe to CR. Most of the people that read and subsribe to CR tend to be more informed and knowledgeable. I think this would speak for Prius owners who subscribe to CR as being knowledgeable and informed and would expect a higher rating :) Other people buy cars for different reasons by Hybrid buyers seem more focussed: (1) high mpg and/or (2) green effort. Don't get me wrong CR is an excellent magazine; I am a subscriber.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,785
    "I guess it is a great car, otherwise YOU wouldn't be focusing on it that much. That certainly is the sincerest form of flattery. With respect to your 250,000 expectations, I am certain it can be achieved. Just as you expect your CRV to get to that milestone as well (without engine work or a transmission replacement). Did I fail to mention that 94% satisfaction rating from CR?"

    I never said it wasn't a great car. I started reading these Forums because I wanted to get educated in Hybrid technology for my next auto purchase. I have learned a lot.

    I mostly post because I cannot stand poor logic. There are many people who post here with great arguments, others with great emotion (but rather less thought), and some with both logic and emotion.

    This particular forum is one I feel my opinion warrents posting - I have considered the upsides and downsides of Hybrids for some time.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    If "bad logic" gets on your nerves, then surf thyself over to the Hummer forums and ask for one good logical reason why a Soccer Mom needs a Hummer.

    If you get anything resembling good logic, let me know..... :D

    Really, though, there downsides to ANYcar purchase, because NO car is perfect. Any car purchase will have downsides as well as upsides.

    As a logical, though-driven buyer, you choose the car with the fewest downsides. For me personally, the extra $1524 I paid for my Hybrid over the comparable EX was a good choice, and the downside of the extra $1524 was outweighed by my emotion of wanting the 48 MPG performance.

    That's just me........... :D
  • Back a few months ago when I started this topic about hybrid cars I did so in hopes that Honda, Toyota, etc, would give credance to the "car buyer" and listen to our thoughts, suggestions, and complaints about these special and inovative cars. Of course that would require "THEM" to pay some attention to the car buyer and heed our good words.
    Why do I think that "THEY" should listen to "US"? Because we can assist in making a hybrid car even better. How many times have you thought of something wrong with your car only to shrug it off because there seemed to be no one to relay it to that cared. Well, I contacted Toyota and suggested they give this site a look-see and time will tell if it works.
    Railroadjames
  • Using the same reasoning...NO ONE WOULD BUY A COMPUTER...

    If you drive 15,000 miles a year and get 25 mpg...you will use 600 gallons of gas at 3.00 per gallon that is $1800...If you get just 50mpg in your preis you will save $900 per year...you will also drive a very green car...and you will have the most advanced Hybrid system available today.

    Costco quoted me a price on a fully loaded Preis of $3000 under invoice. (unfortunately it was after I had paid full price.)
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    $3000 under invoice is less than dealer cost. I tend to doubt that price. I belong to Costco too and I am certain that it is a mistake. It would be nice though!
  • THAT IS WHAT THEY TOLD ME:

    Call them and ask...Others may want to also.
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    Actually..I didn't call them, I did better. I was at one yesterday and they said they can get me a Prius for MSRP. I guess every Costco is different. Please let us know which Costco you are referring to and I'll go there to get my Prius.
  • Go to Costco.com...click on services and take it from there...

    I live in Washington ST. If it makes any difference...I the Top package they sell (6) with some extra's ...With tax and License and everything else, I paid $29,357...The MSRP Price was $26,742.

    As I mentioned I didn't find out about Cosco until after I had already bought the car...I also paid $800 extra to have Leather installed. My wife reminded me of that it is her car...

    From the time I started looking...It was less then 30 days for me to pick up the car...They all talk about the 3-6 month wait but if you are real agressive and let them know you want it now and what color...You can get one....At least out west.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,785
    "If "bad logic" gets on your nerves, then surf thyself over to the Hummer forums and ask for one good logical reason why a Soccer Mom needs a Hummer.

    If you get anything resembling good logic, let me know.....

    Really, though, there downsides to ANYcar purchase, because NO car is perfect. Any car purchase will have downsides as well as upsides.

    As a logical, though-driven buyer, you choose the car with the fewest downsides. For me personally, the extra $1524 I paid for my Hybrid over the comparable EX was a good choice, and the downside of the extra $1524 was outweighed by my emotion of wanting the 48 MPG performance."

    Ah, larsb, at last we agree on something!
  • I'm considering purchasing the Highlander hybrid. I'd appreciate knowing how long, how many miles, you've driven your hybrid and whether you've had any problems with it since your purchase?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Over at a commonly know website which allows owners to track mileage and MPG, there are many owners with more than 4,000 miles on their Highlander Hybrids, and they have averaged 26 miles per gallon. One person already has 9500 miles on their HH.

    After a quick search, there are no problems listed which are related to the fact that the vehicle is a hybrid, if that's what you are looking for.

    As far as I know, and I frequent these websites a lot, there are no known problems with the "Hybrid drive system" in either the Highlander Hybrid or it's upscale brother the Lexus RX400h.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    NO update yet on this problem

    On Friday morning (9/23/05) we were in the car -- only two short blocks from home when the Message area in the center of the dash came on with different messages... Check Hybrid System... Check AWD... Check FSW (or something along those lines)... then the warning light icons started lighting up... the anti skid icon and others, then check engine... then the motors went DEAD!!! The car shut down and wouldn't start.

    Called for a tow as we couldn't get it started. Got down to Toyota and while they were nice enough it seemed like the underlying response was -- "what are you doing wrong?!" as one mechanic put it... "I drove it for 70 miles and never experienced a problem with your car!"...

    Well, maybe but that was last Friday and I still haven't heard from the service dept. They are dealing with Toyota headquarters and the problem is out of the handsof the local Toyota dealership.

    This is a no brainer -- it's the computer system! They should just give us a new car -- we only had under 2,000 miles on it.


    jackdaddy, "2006 Hybrid Toyota Highlander" #1726, 26 Sep 2005 10:33 pm
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "If "bad logic" gets on your nerves, then surf thyself over to the Hummer forums and ask for one good logical reason why a Soccer Mom needs a Hummer.

    If you get anything resembling good logic, let me know..... "

    Here's some logic for ya, Mr Green Jeans:

    If their Hummer and your Civic trade kinetic energy in a collision, guess whose kids walk away and whose are carried away?
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    I would imagine the ones in the Hummer after it flips over trying to avoid the accident. A very clumsy vehicle with poor handling.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "I would imagine the ones in the Hummer after it flips over trying to avoid the accident. A very clumsy vehicle with poor handling. "

    I doubt you've ever driven one. A good driver knows the limits of his/her vehicle. If I'm in a Hummer 1, 2 or 3, and an accident is imminent, and the choice is a major swerve and possible rollover or hit a Civic or Prius, which probably caused the accident, well, I'm not endangering my passengers to try to avoid hitting a little econobox. What would be the point? An 18-wheeler and I think differently.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150

    VERY VERY few accidents are large SUVs exchanging kinetic energy with subcompacts. The statistics show that larger vehicles are not significantly safer than smaller vehicles.

    See that page and look at the death rates for vehicles. Size has nothing to do with it.

    Smaller hybrids can be as safe as Suburbans, and are definitely safer than Ford F-150s.

    And Heyjewel, on your analogy about "not trying to avoid a little econobox" well that's just not possible. Natural human reaction by default is to avoid an accident, so you will not have time to say in your mind, "That's just a Civic I'll just hit it." It doesn't work that way in the Real World.
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    It's usually the Hummer that will cause the accident. I avoid them like I avoid garbage trucks. Unwieldy monsters.
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    I definitely agree with that! Most of the accidents I see on a daily basis involve drivers driving too closely. With the long stopping distances of certain vehicles, I have no idea why they tailgate.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Actually this is not entirely accurate.

    When the Prius first came out Toyota invited a group of auto journalists to its plant in Japan and to its crash testing facility. In front of this group, as reported by the Toronto Sun, they crashed an '04 Prius into an '04 Prado ( LX470 ) using a 40km/h offset crash method as which is actually more 'stressful' than that used by the IIHS and most other countries. The reporter's reaction as reported in the article was "My first reaction was that the Prius actually came away better than the bigger SUV, but a closer examination of the cabin areas of each vehicle showed both had remained remarkably intact". Nov 9 2003.

    Common sense and physics would seem to lead one to believe that the lighter vehicle would be destroyed by the 3 Ton monster. It's not the case however.

    That being said if any car is T-boned by a 6000 lb SUV or Truck the occupants are at much more risk - unless they have S&C A/B. Then the car occupants might walk away only bruised.

    kdhspyder
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Good Points kdhspyder.

    That brings to mind the fact that small cars are hugely more safe now than 20 or 30 years ago, thanks in most part to Government mandates.

    If anyone chooses to buy one of the smaller hybrids, they can be assured that they are driving pound for pound one of the safest vehicles on the road.
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    I'd have to agree. I have to find a link to the European crash tests. It was amazing how well the Prius did. Another car that does well is the HAH. Small cars today are surprisingly safe. Another one that comes to mind is the VW New Beetle. It protects the occupants extremely well. Bigger is not always better.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    From your linked page:

    Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (hwysafety.org) quote:

    "Why can't I compare vehicles from different categories? The kinetic energy a vehicle must absorb in a crash test increases with vehicle weight, so offset tests are more demanding of heavier vehicles. But people in heavier vehicles in real-world, 2-vehicle crashes typically fare better than people in lighter vehicles (in many single-vehicle crashes, weight offers no safety advantage). This is why test results shouldn’t be compared among vehicles with large weight differences. "

    This whole thread started because of your holier-than-thou attitude when u basically stated there is no logical reason for soccer moms to drive a Hummer. What I'm saying basically is: It's none of YOUR D__N business what anyone else drives. I know there are lots of green liberal demos who would love to legislate the driving choices for the world, perhaps you're one of them? Thankfully it still looks like here in America we will retain our freedom of CHOICE despite the whims of control-freaks and enviro-whackos.

    And to the driver who avoids Hummers and garbage trucks in his econobox - that's a good start to keep yourself safe. But if you all think your little cars are as safe as larger vehicles, well, you're just drinking Toyota's KoolAid.

    BTW, have any of you an opinion on Toyota's new totally disingenuous BS TV advertising for their wonderful clean cars? Will the grass be greeener? etc. As if Toyota doesn't make Tundras or Land Cruisers. It's funny but when the whackos attack SUVs either in print or with spray cans or molotov cocktails, they always attack Ford and GM. Never Toyota or Nissan. Anyone care to take a guess why?
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Costco quoted me a price on a fully loaded Preis of $3000 under invoice. (unfortunately it was after I had paid full price.)"

    ???

    A fully loaded Prius (w/ package #6) has an MSRP of $26,880 according to Edmunds. And it has an invoice price (including destination) of $24,306.

    So for Costco to quote you a price on a fully loaded Prius of $3k under invoice, the price would have to be around $21.3k for a new package #6 Prius.

    I think someone is making a mistake somewhere......
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    I used to own an SUV and found out I didn't need one (FWD is fine in the snow). I have nothing against SUV drivers or people that own them. If they have a need that's their business. I just have to laugh at SOME people that buy them because they feel safer. That's foolish. I DON'T have a Prius yet, nor do I have an econo-box. If you think people that drive hybrids are cocky, just think of some of the SUV drivers the minute the flakes start to fall. They're the first ones overturned on the side of the road.
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