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Volkswagen Passat 2006+

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  • Any 38K Passat is a wishful thinking. Remember the "high selling" $39K W8 that VW thought would rule the class ended being discounted 6-7K just to move it off the lot.

     

    Anything over $30K the Passat will get its clock cleaned in sales by many other near luxury brands. The Acura TL being being a perfect example and it is the segment sales leader selling like hot cakes at $33-36K. VW of late has miscalculated big time with Phaeton blunder. You build market by volume and high quality not be bringing out a white elephant.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    The Passat doesn't seem to be affected by the horror stories that plague the Golf and the Jetta. In my circles it gets much more respect than those two and if it's priced to compete against the Camry and Accord it'll do well. If it prices against the Japanese midsized entry-lux vehicles, I think too many people will choose an ES300, TL, or G35. The Passat might be competitive in magazines against those cars, but it needs to attract families looking for a midsized car, who'll tend to prefer a Lexus, Acura, or Infinity over a Volkswagen. (And a 3-series, C-class, or A4 would be too small for them, but a 5-, E-, or A6 too expensive.)

     

    VW put its compacts in a niche between economy compacts and "premium" compacts, but there's no such niche in the midsized market.

     

    Other than that, the car looks great (I assume its long nose it borne out of the European pedestrian safety regulations), the interior looks great, and it sounds like VW will give a lot of functions to the electronic emergency brake. How have previous Passats been on torque steer?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    I personally couldn't care less if VW lost one billion or two, or BMW takes the sales lead. As long as the company remains solvent to cover any warranty claims; I'm happy.

     

    All theoretical of course (not being able to drive it)...but if I were about to put down 35K on a new car, I'd take the Passat 3.6 over the TL any day. If they want to discount it 6-7K then it's just that much more attractive.

     

    Not having numbers in front of me, I believe that the Jetta is VW's high selling model. It looks like it will compete favorably against the import masses (Honda, Toyota, Nissan).

     

    Overall...I shop for the "best" auto for the price and don't concern myself with the company's accounting.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    heh...funny you should mention ES300...a few years ago my wife and I were test driving many different vehicles.

     

    We both felt the Jetta (yes) was a much better car than the ES300; just did not impress.

     

    Torque steer? That could be an issue on the non-AWD version.
  • . . .some folks are NOT buying VW's claim that the Phaeton was expected to "take time."

     

    It may be a failure, and perhaps VW should have made a separate division like Acura and Lexus did when they wanted to take Honda and Toyota upscale.

     

    Before any of the current apparent sales issues with the Pheaton ever came to be known, I remember reading that the Phaeton concept was expected to take time, VW's management had set board expectations thusly.

     

    From all I can tell in "the Press" the Phaeton is (broken record) a lot of car for the money. US dealers apparently don't need gravity they suck so much, to read some of the tales told here and elsewhere.

     

    My barber, there's a good source, eh?, has a new VW Beetle, 10,000 miles on it, loves it, has been in ONE TIME for service -- he still thinks it is a good deal and a great car. He had Japanese (Mazda or Honda I think) before that.

     

    I only know, personally, two dealers in greater Cincinnati -- they seem competent. I dunno about the other dealers, maybe they're all duds.

     

    The Passat with all the stuff outlined with 280 hp and AWD with a 6spd DSG or tip -- if it tops out, rather than starts at $38K, one more time, I'll say bargain.

     

    The W8, from what I can tell suffered from lack of visual cues of its "specialness" and, also, had virtually NO advertising to differentiate it.

     

    If I saw an apparently identical Passat for +$10K, I might be somewhat reluctant -- espeically if the salesperson said "W8" to me -- and I didn't know any better.

     

    But for $33 or $34K the W8's should have flown off the dealer's lots -- of course the largest dealer I know, never had any more than 2 at a time on the lot and only EVER had ONE sport model -- I wanted to drive it, but it sold FAST!

     

    Wonder if anyone was keeping any benchmarks or if they see how well a car sells even with benign neglect.

     

    I hope VW is profitable -- I want my car vendor to be thus. Thinking from a Macro Economic perspective.

     

    Asta La Pizza and Spumoni for all!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    " seriously doubt the new Passat is meant to even remotely compete with the Phaeton or A8.

     

    )

     

    I did not mean compete, but I meant compelling value compared to the others. It is true that I should not have made this comparison since the Passat and Phaeton are in a different league altogeter. I believe VW is all about--providing compelling value for high quality, not charging premium prices for high quality(leave that to Audi). So if VW provides value, what's the story with the Phaeton. The President of Audi USA lost his job because he said the truth(it was idiotic introduce the Phaeton in the first place) h

     

    If a Passat starts selling close to the prices of A6s or even A4s, then the Passat is toast. I love this new Passat based on the specs and the photos, but I hope I love the price too(then I am a potenital buyer).

     

    Otherwise I will replace my 99 BMW 323 with a new 06 3 series.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    "and perhaps VW should have made a separate division like Acura"

     

    In fact Honda introduced the Acura to imitate VW's Audi division in the mid to late 80's.

     

    Now VW is going to imitate Honda's Acura division by introducing a new division seperate from Audi. Does that not sound a bit redundant!

     

    The whole point is the Phaeton disaster should be etched in VW managements brains when they price the new Passat. VW is not a premium price marque because public perception views it as a mainstream model. Charging hefty prices for a Passat will cause VW to lose it mainstream buyers and the many dealers who service these mainstream buyers
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "I seriously doubt the new Passat is meant to even remotely compete with the Phaeton or A8."

     

    You're right, only cars with similar price like the Caddilac Allante can compete with the Mercedes SL. But who was GM trying to fool?

     

    "...perhaps the new Passat will be superior to the previous A6 (chassis)."

     

    & the new A6 chassis as well! Long heavy nose is a wrong design that should no longer exist in the 21th century. Audi will amend that but only in the future. VW is doing it now. So if the new "Focus-ized" Passat is superior to the A6, then it shouldn't be far off from the A8/Phaeton. The current Passat w/ extended wheelbase is already available in China & as the Skoda Superb in Europe. So can the next Passat.

     

    Do people still remember the Legend/RL after the introduction of the TL? Who really needs a car that big? Does it provide limo-like comfort like a Rolls or the S-Class? The A8 rides too hard, & the Phaeton runs out suspension travel on deep bumps.

     

    VW can always import the lower-price Skoda Superb to compete w/ the Camry/Accord. :-)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    "VW can always import the lower-price Skoda Superb to compete w/ the Camry/Accord. :-) "

     

    VW is having problems in Europe because Skodas cannibalizes the sales from Passat.

     

    VW is a large multinational company that has the potential to produce the new Passat at competitive prices. They have a plant in Mexico which can be expanded to produce less costly Passats. VW is thinking of building a plant in USA(does anybody remember the pickup version of the VW Rabbit manufactured in USA). VW has plants in China . VW has plants in other parts of the world where currencies are not that strong. With all these plants VW does not have to rely on Germany to manufacture a costly Passat(reflecting the strong Euro and hefty wages earned in Germany ).

     

    It would be interesting to see the reliability of VWs manufactured in China. In fact it may be scary!
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    Superb...what is the New Octavia based on?
  • . . .I was in Prague. As I deplaned, I walked through the terminal's luggage claim and there in the terminal passages were new Skoda cars -- I peered inside the two REMARKABLY Passat like cars to see virtual Passat twin interiors.

     

    Picked up my luggage, hailed a cab -- which happened to be a new shiny black Skoda Superb (I think it was this model, anyway). The air conditioning vents were dead on current gen Passat, the door pulls and other hardware also Passat -- not Passat-like, Passat.

     

    It is hard to figure price points and make US to European price comparisons -- ALL cars seem to cost more in Europe no matter what. By my conversion, a Passat (not fancy like we see here) in London is about $40,000 US equivalent. A "strippie" A4 in Zurich (with a motor lower in displacement than any we get here) was also pretty close to $40,000 -- for that kind of money a US V6 A4 with most of the options would cost the same.

     

    Anyway, I look at the VW group in Europe and see Skoda, VW and Audi, with VW slowly moving up market to compete with Mercedes and Audi aiming at BMW -- and based on what year you look at sales, Audi pulls ahead of BMW then is passed next by BMW. In Germany, Audi and BMW are closer together than the Bush Kerry popular vote. As I recall, Audi is now in Bush's position probably due in part to the freshness of its product line.

     

    Odd, in Germany Audi and BMW are much closer in price than they are here.

     

    In any case, at age 53, I still view VW as a near premium brand -- I would not think to compare a Passat with a Camry or Accord, apparently I am in a minority.

     

    Working with less than two dozen people, I get to see a lot of cars up close and personal. One of the folks I work with has a 2004 Passat V6, manual transmission. His ONLY critical comment, "the car is under tired." Whenever I ride with him, I think "Audi."

     

    I mentioned earlier, the new Passat sure seems like an Audi A5 -- at A3 or A4 prices.

     

    As I continue to age, VW still seems to retain the image of a driver's car.

     

    To me, VW is moving in the right direction, forward.
  • I have an 04 W8 manual six speed wagon, and VW stopped making the W8 for 05. I hope they wise up. I LOVE my wagon because it has the zip and the stability most cars lack. They misjudged badly by producing the W8, not advertising it enough, and then essentially dropping it to focus on the Phaeton. Take the process one step at a time. I hope the 06 Passat returns to the W8 as an option.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    I suppose they would need to increase the W8 hp if they were to offer it again, since the V6 is now 280.

     

    I find the Passat wagon drives and handles just as well as the sedan; plenty of room too.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    VW engineers noticed that an equivalent-power V8 is a better choice.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "Picked up my luggage, hailed a cab -- which happened to be a new shiny black Skoda Superb (I think it was this model, anyway). The air conditioning vents were dead on current gen Passat, the door pulls and other hardware also Passat -- not Passat-like, Passat."

     

    Why bother spending $ to redesign the Passat into some'in different for a car that sells at lower price? The only thing they did was to increase the wheelbase & redesign the rear door into 2-piece glass w/ the C-pillar glass deleted to save $. The China long-wheel-base Passat still kept the Passat rear-door/C-pillar configuration. While that of the Phaeton & especially the next Passat looks more like the Skoda Superb & the Nissan Altima, if also BMW-ish.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "It would be interesting to see the reliability of VWs manufactured in China. In fact it may be scary!"

     

    A few years ago, a Taiwan car magazine sampled the made-in-China A6 & found the interior craftsmanship superb. From the pictures, the only thing "wrong" or different from the German-made one I spotted was that the dashboard wood-grain lines were lined up vertically rather than horizontally.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    The new Octavia is based on the new Golf/Jetta V. Eventhough it looks like a notchback sedan, it's really a hatch, just like the new Seat Altea and Toledo.
  • fish8fish8 Posts: 2,282
    There seems to be allot of talk about the new '06 Passat and what it will compete against, why don't we all hold on for a while longer and see the final product and then we can judge it's driving dynamics and make our conclusions then. Also, I'm interested in seeing if VW fixes their quality control issues (Jetta and Passat). If they do, then I think VW's finances will be in good shape. If they don't remedy the quality problems, then VW will have allot of explaining to do and will be in BIG trouble.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    fish8,

     

    you are correct, quality control issues are essential. If VW cannot change the perception that their products are unreliable, they should do what Hyundai did: Offer the best and most comprehensive warranty in the industry . This would provide VW with the strongest incentive to address reliability issues: otherwise their comprehensive warranty commitments will go out of control. This is why Hyundai jumped from the worst reliable manufacturer to among the best.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Sapparo,

     

    I know this is not relevent to this forum, but I want to make a correction

     

    I was wrong and you were right.

     

    The Altima,Maxima and Murano all share the same platform.

     

    While the Nissan Z35, Infiniti G35 and FX SUV share another rwd platform.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    I believe that this is the final product; though all detailed info has yet to be released.

     

    The types of vehicles being compared to are similar e.g. sedan, size, equipment and MSRP (no Armada comparisons). Although this is not a versus form, I see no harm in speculating it's competition. You are correct that direct detailed comparisons warrant extensive test drives since all information released to date is VW PR. We do, or I do anyway, know that in V6 form it will out class an Accord but a TL,G35,M35,IS300,A4,330,9-3…who knows.

      

    What quality control issues are you referring to. The only glaring one that sticks in my mind was the ignition coil fiasco.

     

    I suspect that there will be teething pains regarding this new Passat. I don't think it shares anything with the previous model...other than being built by VW. It does share many components with the Golf so hopefully the Europeans will serve as the Beta build, though the 3.6 is unique to the US.
  • fish8fish8 Posts: 2,282
    "What quality control issues" ? have you seen where VW ranks in terms of initial quality is surveys such as JD Power? Last or next to last. The Passat is probably one of VW's most relaible cars, but VW's overall are notorious for electrical gremlins, Coil Packs, oil consumption issues, sludge in their 1.8t engines. A car company does not get to be last or next to last in quality surveys for having exceptional quality.

     

    Eventhough I am saying this, I still love my '04.5 Passat and have had ZERO problems with it.
  • Can we take the $38K price for the loaded Passat and work backwards, using the current option price for the auto, leather, 4-motion nav, etc to get a price for the turbo four with leather, fwd, auto and no nav (which may be the most popular selection by consumers)?

     

    My guess is as follows -

    4 motion adds $3K to the base GLS

    The V6 is $6500 over the GLS

    Leather adds $1600 on top of the GLS

    The Automatic adds $1100

    17" wheels $400

    Not sure of the pricing of the nav or upgraded radio (as all Passats have the monsoon system now).

     

    So...

    $38,000 minus

    $6000 for the v6 to t4

    $400 for smaller wheels

    $3000 for awd back to fwd

    My guess would be $28K for leather AT turbo 4

    and $26K for the cloth AT t4

    and $24.5 for the base t4 w/cloth and manual.

     

    Now you're dipping into Ford500 and chrysler 300 territory (in addition to the CamCord playground).

     

    The above cars will beat the Passat at the price level in terms of HP (even the 500 has 203 HP), which is a strong selling point to many average consumers (many dont care/know about driving dynamics).

     

    I was really looking at the 500 (love the Passat design heritage of J Mays), and scared of VW reliability. This will be a tough decision in the future for many buyers, including myself.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The Passat FSI 2.0 4 cyl. has about 200hp. And when it comes down to perfomance, it is without mention who would win.

    Using hp stats to buy car should be done in consideration of other factors like torque , handling and performance.

     

    BMW 3 series has a record of having low hp compared to competitors--but it remains the benchmark car for performance handling(lower hp does not mean bad performance/handling)
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    Plus weight and gear ratios; Passat will have a 6spd.

     

    The price guesstimate seems to make sense to me.
  • I'm not worried about the performance of the turbo 4, as I'm a fan of VW and know what it is capable of.

     

    I was just pointing out what Joe and Jane America look at when they start shopping. Remember, even though the VW and 500 will have similar HP #'s and 6 speeds, people will see it as a 4 banger vs a v6. And the 300 has only 5 speeds, but higher HP #'s.

     

    Car makers play the numbers game. Ford is losing the numbers game in the auto press by mating a weak engine to a superior drivetrain...even though the drivetrain compensates for the engines power. People only look at the power, not how it's applied. Infinity is playing this card against BMW in their ads for the G35 VS the 3 series.

     

    I hope VW comes out with a TDI version of this car and as a variant as well (I'd seriously take a hard look at it then).
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    Ok...

     

    I'm going under the assumption that the typical VW buyer, Passat in particular, is a little more sophisticated and informed than Joe and Jane America (you know, them). I do not think that the Ford 500 will be cross shopped with the Passat, or anything. I suspect the local geriatrics club will offer coupons for the 500 and people will go down and buy the car; for a good deal (I'm also assuming there will be no 500 shoppers here to insult).

     

    Briefly.

    500 is cvt 3800lbs, 207 ft-lbs @4500 (Edmunds review)

    300 3.5 is 4sp 3700lbs, 250 fl-lb @3800 (non-awd)

    Passat 2.0T is 6sp 3300*,207 ft-lbs @1800

     

    *Guessing the Passat curb weight will be similar to an A3 sportback.

     

    I think if VW can actually get people, let's say the less sophisticated, to the show room to drive the Passat 2.0T, the "feeling" will be the selling point.

     

    The combination of a relatively low curb weight (taking a few liberties here) , a 6 speed (either manual or auto) and the 2.0T's low torque should produce an auto that is not only fast but feels fast (again relative to competition and price category). The 2.0T in A3 form achieves a 0-100 km/h in 7.0 seconds and around 40 mpg on the highway.
  • I think the passat will weigh in closer to the A6 weight than an A3. The trend in the auto industry it to sacrifice lower weight in order to achieve higher crash results. Also the size on the b6 Passat will be more A6 than A4.

     

    I also don't think the 500 will compete directly against the passat in all categories, but perhaps they will in the lower passat price level. In terms of the design, I like the 500 (I said I love the b5 passat design). Yes, it's bland, but so is the Accord and the Camry.

     

    My brother-in-law just purchased a TDI bug, and I would love to get more info on the TDI options that may make it to the states, and more info on the wagon. I'm in California, so our state doesn't allow diesel vehicles to be sold yet (unless you want a work truck).
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    I was basing the weight on the A3 sport-back. The A3 is based on the Golf, and the sport-back is a little heaver than the A3 so my reasoning goes: Passat is based on the Golf platform (in 2.0T trim) it shares...everything. It is a little bigger and probably has more sound insulation and bigger tires etc. But overall it should be inline with the Golf...only a little more; like an A3 sport-back.

     

    I do think weight is very important, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see; I’m not sure why they didn’t release all the tech specs…everything should be decided already.

     

    On a side note:

     

    Anybody know the definitions of torsional rigidity?

     

    Reading specs on the new Passat, it says that the Torsional Rigidity has been increased 57% over the outgoing model. This seems like a lot (I’m guessing, don’t really know) since the previous model was based on the A6 platform; this new model is based on the Golf.

     

    On the new A6 I read "…the new A6 is 35 precent more rigid than its predecessor" (I assume this also means Torsional Rigidity).

     

    So:

    The new Golf is 57% more rigid than the old A6.

    The new A6 is 35% more rigid than the old A6.

     

    Is the Golf more rigid than the NEW A6.

     

    What am I missing?
  • That is one gorgeous-looking interior.

     

    Here's my take: The Passat price can't jump too much, or it falls into no man's land. As I see it, the Passat is intended to be a slightly upscale mid-sized sedan. That means its a little bit nicer than a Camry or an Accord, but it IS aimed at people who are thinking of those cars. It's made for people who are thinking family sedan, but are willing to pay a little more for a bit of style.

     

    I can't see the point of moving it any further upscale. That's what Audi is for. If the Passat gets too expensive, then VW has nothing tp compete with the Accord/Camry/Altima/6 (Jetta does not compete with these.)

     

    My guess is base Passat starts at no more than 23.5
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