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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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  • coppell85coppell85 Posts: 1
    I finally removed my PAX wheels on my 2006 Honda Odyssey Touring yesterday. After dealing with Honda and Michelin about removing the PAX and having them tell me it was impossible and it would cancel the warranty on my vehicle.
    I went on EBAY and bought (4) wheels and tires that came from a 2005/2006 Odyssey EX. I found a Discount Tire that was about 50 miles away from my house that had a tire changer for PAX wheels. So for a price of $45 for each PAX wheel, they would remove the tire from the PAX wheel and take the sensor out of the wheel and place into the set of wheels for the EX. The EX wheels and tires were then placed on my Touring and everything works just like it did before with the PAX, except now I had to get a spare tire to put in the back. Now when we have a flat we can go to almost any tire store to get it fixed or replaced.

    I did have a flat with the PAX tire while on vacation in Kansas one month ago and after having problems with getting it repaired I had to deal with Honda and Michelin. Honda told me any problems with the PAX is Michelin's fault, not Honda's. I told Honda that it is 100% their fault, because they are the ones forcing us to use the PAX tire. It took me at least (6) phone calls, before Michelin would pay for the replaced PAX tire. I had to take my vehicle to a dealership in Texas to prove the size of the thread. Well I don't have to worry about this problem again. I also told Discount Tire they can have the new PAX tire or give it to someone else who still wants PAX tires. Also the flat I had with the PAX only lasted about 25 miles, before the side wall had a large cut in about 8 inches long. I informed the dealer that I had to drive through an old town that had a brick road. They said the tire was only tested on the highway and I was lucky that the wheel didn't get damaged.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    As published in today's edition of The Columbus Dispatch:

    Sandusky, Ohio - A village councilman from northern Ohio was struck and killed by a car while changing a flat tire for another motorist, the State Highway Patrol said.

    John Reiman, a part-time tow truck driver and member of the Bay View Village Council, had been called to fix the flat Sunday on Rt. 2, about 60 miles east of Toledo. He had just removed the tire from a minivan when another car lost control. He attempted to run from its path but was hit, troopers said.

    Reiman, 52, was pronounced dead at the scene. Authorities said Matthew Jones, 17, of Sandusky, fell asleep while driving before hitting Reiman and the minivan. No charges have been filed.

    **********

    As it happened, we came across this crash site about 4:30 PM Sunday while the accident was under investigation. Rt. 2 is a limited access highway with a 65 mph speed limit and it is the main east-west route nearest to Lake Erie. Sandusky is home to Cedar Point Amusement Park.

    Just passing the scene, it was difficult to envision how the crash occurred as the late model Chrysler minivan had been pushed into the median and had fairly heavy left front and door damage.
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 253
    Cstiles said: My point is that long term, PAX delivers better interior and storage options. And lighter weight. And superiority over other runflats that rely on super rigid sidewalls.

    I have an interesting counterpoint here. In my last job, working as a suspension tuning and tire development engineer for a large OE, I obtained and compared a Honda Odyssey Touring with PAX to an Odyssey EX - Leather without.

    I was asked by brand X to investigate Odyssey PAX for a couple of reasons, one of which was to figure out why the JDPower Initial Quality Survey results were significantly worsr for ride comfort for PAX-equipped Odysseys.

    Fact 1) A single "normal" wheel and tire weigh 50.0 lbs, while a PAX assembly weighed 75 lbs. That's a 25lb increase, per corner, in unsprung weight (the mass equivalent to bad cholestorol) 25 lbs a corner is huge folks, from a vehicle dynamics and ride tuning standpoint. Indeed the PAX Odyssey tie-rod ends had huge mass dampers on them, indicating that wheel "shimmy" was a large concern. You don't make a model-specific unique part like that unless you really have to.

    Fact 2) Ride quality was noticably worse with the PAX tires, with more clomping over bumps and a general increase in harshness. These are not surprising considering: 1) the increase in unsprung mass, and; 2) The stiffer sidewalls of the PAX tire vs standard. The doughnut inside does mean that the sidewalls don't have to be as stiff as "regular" run-flats, but they're still stiffer than standard tires.

    Fact 3) The jack and spare in the normal Odyssey weighed 42 pounds. Therefore, the presence of PAX adds 58 lbs to an Odyssey, with a 100 lb increase in unsprung weight.

    Fact 4) Honda didn't do anything with the space savings, as an empty spare tire cavity still resides in a PAX car.

    Dan

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • roseyckroseyck Posts: 5
    I posted on this forum 7/23 just after learning that my second pair of run-flat tires were worn after just 17K miles. The service rep for my dealer stated that they needed to be replaced "soon" but since they were not at the level of wear which would fail PA state inspections standards, their dealership did not consider them worn enough to be replaced under the new Toyota extended warranty.

    Lucky for me, the dealer did not complete all requested repairs and I had to return the following week. I found the service manager in the waiting room of the dealer's repair area and when I recounted my tales of ongoing misery with these tires, he stopped me mid-report (which nearly everyone in the waiting room seemed to be listening to!) and said they would replace the second set of tires and bill them to Toyota.

    The third set of run-flat tires were put on 7/26 and once the wheels were aligned, the noise and ride immediately improved. We set out for a vacation to Cape Cod happy to have new tires and a comfortable ride. However, on I-95 in CT, our tire pressure warning light went on. While the ride felt unchanged, within minutes it sounded as if a large motorcycle pulled up behind us, badly needing a muffler. We pulled off the next exit at about 6PM on Saturday evening, along with my sister who was riding caravan with my sick father and all of his medical equipment.

    In short, there was not one tire place open that had a tire that fit my Sienna. The AAA tow driver was unfamiliar with run-flats and would not have been able to change our tire anyway. He suggested multiple tire dealers, some of which had emergency after-hours service, but no one had a replacement tire. So, we packed up both of my children in the car with my sister and father and took most of his medical equipment in trade and my husband and I had to check into a motel for the remainder of the weekend. On Monday morning, neither of the two tire dealers who boasted large inventories (250K tires!) had a run=flat in stock. Neither did any of the Goodyear/Dunlop dealers in the area. One did offer to get us a replacement tire in three days.

    When the local Toyota dealership opened, we were lucky to find the service manager had a set of 4 in stock, kept for emergencies. He replaced our tire in under an hour and the cost was covered under warranty. It only cost us nearly three hundred dollars to cover the cost of our lodging and food while we waited until Monday to find a tire.

    BTW--we did not puncture the tire on the road. We blew out a side wall. The service manager said it was probably a defect in the tire or else we hit something hard enough to crack the rigid sidewall without knowing it. No way! I watched the road right along with my husband to make sure he never hit a pothole. I didn't want anything happening to those new tires --for at least 9K miles, when I could start checking them for replacement.

    I AM grateful we arrived safe and I am grateful the tire was covered under warranty. I am grateful my sister was with us and that my father was only terribly stressed out by this ordeal and not harmed by it.

    I am furious enough though that I am spending part of my vacation complaining to every agency or individual I think will hear my case on the absurdity of these tires. Who can afford these, in time or money?

    I will keep you posted on anything I learn on my rant for justice! rck/PGH
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Very interesting post, Dan. It's reassuring to know that Honda engineered the vehicle for PAX.

    I never received a JD Power survey for my '05 Touring but if I had I would not have complained about the ride quality of PAX. To me, the ride quality seems about the same as an EX with conventional tires and, for whatever reason, the Touring seems to handle better than an EX. I will say, though, that I would not want the van to ride any stiffer than it does - it is close to the limit of acceptability for this 51 year old body.
  • Well done coppell85,
    That is great news. The only thing I might do differently is purchase the PAX valve stems seperately. Did you try to buy the stems from the dealer first? It may make the whole operation a little cheaper.
    I'm going to do the same thing, but I still have a few months tread left so I'll use that up first (we have no long distance trips planned until Thanksgiving).
    Keep us updated on any issues you have (which hopefully wont be any).
  • By the way, forgot to ask: have you had any luck finding a spare wheel/tire for the EX? I searched ebay a couple of times and couldnt find one.
  • dsrtrat2dsrtrat2 Posts: 223
    Try a salvage yard.
  • gene00gene00 Posts: 113
    Yes, well done. One question: how did you resolve the warranty issues with Honda? Did you get anything in writing stating something to the effect that the rest of the vehicle is still under full warranty, but you're on your own as far as the wheels/tires?
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 253
    red_sox999 wrote: That is great news. The only thing I might do differently is purchase the PAX valve stems seperately. Did you try to buy the stems from the dealer first? It may make the whole operation a little cheaper.

    TPMS sensors/valve stems are designed to be replaceable and re assignable using an electronic tool that every dealer has. As a former brand X engineer, I used one all the time. Install new sensor. Mount wheel and tire on car. Use tool to assign the new sensor's unique ID in the vehicle's ECU. Done.

    Some cars will "learn" a new sensor after driving on it for 30 minutes. That was true of Brand X, but I don't know what TPMS system Honda uses. Perhaps I'll ask my TPMS engineer buddies and report back.

    HOWEVER: Non-PAX Odysseys do not have TPMS. The valve stem area of typical non-TPMS wheels are not properly machined to accept a TPMS sensor (PAX valve stem) which, unlike traditional rubber valve stems, have a metal barrel and use o-rings and a nut to seal properly. This is most likely why dealers are saying they won't do it, it'll void the warranty, etc. And they're not BS'ing you. Indeed Brand X had to change wheel molds to put enough "meat" in the valve stem area for the unique TPMS valve stem hole. I would be very wary of a TPMS sensor that has been installed in a "regular" Odyssey wheel. Leaks in the area seem likely, which makes this solution seem to run contrary to the whole safety thing. Coppell85, if you have any pictures of your EX wheels with the PAX valve stems installed, I'd like to see them. In the meantime, please check your tire pressures and make sure there isn't a slow leak at the valve stem.

    If '07 Odysseys come standard with TPMS, then there will be plenty of TPMS-ready non-PAX wheels available to buy. We'll have to wait and see what Honda says when they release the '07 information.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • Found this link but not sure what it means by "TPMS on all levels, but only tire specific on Touring" I dont understand this--does this mean that non-Touring vans will warn you of "A" tire needs air but not indicate which one??

    http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showthread.php?s=2a2611c071963313e603650e60dd6733&- threadid=33311&perpage=15&highlight=&pagenumber=8
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 253
    red_sox999 said: "Found this link but not sure what it means by "TPMS on all levels, but only tire specific on Touring" I dont understand this--does this mean that non-Touring vans will warn you of "A" tire needs air but not indicate which one??"

    From what I have learned, TPMS is only available on the Touring model. I do not believe that non-Touring Odysseys have TPMS. Honda's own web site is one of my sources. I'm going to see an '06 non-Touring tonight in order to confirm it with my own eyes.

    However, it is possible to have a TPMS system that knows that you have a low tire, but cannot tell you which one it is. This so-called "low-line" system gets pressure readings from each tire, but because this lower-cost version does not have individual initiators in each wheel well, it doesn't know which of the four tires is low. A low-line TPMS display gives you a generic low tire warning, but it is up to the driver to check the pressures - all of them - and add air as needed.

    High-line TPMS systems have initiators in each wheel well that perform an electronic hand-shake with each sensor each time the engine is started. Therefore, they know where each tire is, even if the tires were just rotated, and can tell the driver which tire needs help.

    There are other high-line advantages, but I'm sure I'd bore everyone.

    The question of which Odyssey has TPMS will be moot in 2008, as 100% of ALL cars sold in the USA will be required by law to have it by then. In 2006, only 20% were required to have it. I believe Honda was able to meet that requirement without putting TPMS on all Odysseys. They put it on the Touring model because you have to pair TPMS with run-flats of any kind.

    However in 2007, federal law says that 70% of Hondas (and everyone else) will need to sport TPMS. It remains to be seen if Honda decides to make TPMS standard on all 2007 Odysseys in order to meet the federal 70% company-wide requirement.

    In any event, low-line TPMS systems satisfy the legal requirement.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 253
    A quick follow-up: The 2006 Odyssey EX I examined last night does not have TPMS. Furthermore, a quick read of the owner's manual confirms that only the Touring model has the feature.

    The 2006 EX wheels I looked at are machined to accept normal rubber valve stems, making a leak-free installation of PAX Touring TPMS sensors/valve stems into them very doubtful.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • Honda could not cancel the warranty on your vehicle because you changed the tires. They could deny a claim for a suspension, wheel, hub, bearing, etc. if it could be clearly related back to your modification. I have several concerns/comments. The TPMS is designed to fit in the PAX wheel. The wheels you are using do not have enough clearance for the sensor which could cause a failure. The PAX wheel is designed to counter ballance the weight of the sensor. When you have a flat your dash board message will advise that you can drive the vehicle for 150 miles. You will know that is not true. Just make sure you disclose this modification to anyone who drives the vehicle or when it is sold or traded. I would be concerned about the liability if the modification could be traced back to you and it was determined that a failure related to the modification was your fault. As the infrastructure to service and replace PAX tires matures, they will only be slightly more expensive than conventional tires.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    Completely agree. The tire(contact patch) is the ONLY thing connectiong the vehicle to the road and a modification to the Touring's integrated Run-Flat PAX system is tempting fate. This isn't like swapping wheels and tires to make an aesthetic statement with the car. This is a blatent defeat of the integrated TPMS/PAX system with specific reasons unclear. I would only resell the vehicle by putting the PAX system (wheels and tires) back on. I have over 6,000 miles on my Touring in 3 months and I think the ride is superb and the wear so far looks even across the board.
  • Finally someone with some rational thinking on this issue. One point on the tire wear. The molding process for PAX tires does not mold the tire pattern very deep at the edges of the tire. After so many miles the outside edges look worn and give the impression that the tire was run under inflated. However, this part of the tire still has all the meat left on it that is in the center of the tread pattern. The tire is not worn until the center portion of the tread is below 3/32nds of an inch.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I read some of the edge wear posts and have been running 1 Lb. over in the tires, 34 front and 36 rear. The wear after 6,000 miles looks very good. I monitor the pressure with a gauge and the TPMS display and I must say the display is dead accurate. The ride is not harsh as some have said and it is a world of difference from the mushy ride of our old Sienna. Numerous guests have commented on how nice the Touring rides and feels to them, so it ain't all bad... Although this is my wife's vehicle, I have taken the PAX system to task and personally find no issues. It's driveability and tracking is very un-vanlike(unlike our Sienna, which drove like a van) and we couldn't be happier. My last car(AMG) had a can of fix-a-flat, so this is a step up :)
  • gene00gene00 Posts: 113
    The specific reasons for the 'blatent defeat of the integrated TPMS/PAX system' are obvious. They are 1) the high possibility getting stuck for a day or more after suffering a tire failure waiting for a replacement pax to arrive if you're not near a major metropolitan area and 2) the high cost of replacing pax tires - roughly $1200 for replacement tires, $1500 for replacement wheels & tires if they don't have the tire changing epuipment (which 99% of the tire shops in the country don't have). It's simply a wheel & a tire (albiet with fancy stems). Swapping them out for a set of EX-L wheels & tires is hardly 'tempting fate'.
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 253
    I called my local Honda dealer posing as A PAX-equipped Odyssey owner, asking about replacement tires. He said:

    They cost $200 apiece, exchange. They don't have the tire change equipment (yet), hence the new wheel exchange scenario.

    It would take "about a week" to get them in.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    Do you own a Touring model Odyssey?
  • ody681ody681 Posts: 2
    A couple of comments on TPMS swapping to standard wheels. The previous comments about sensor fitment are correct, not all wheels are designed for them. Also some sensor stems have a special sealing nut that must be replaced when the sensor is removed & re-installed. I think this is true for the Odyssey item. There are specific torque specs for most sensors. All this needs to be dome properly to make sure there are no leaks.
  • gene00gene00 Posts: 113
    I do not (yet) own a Touring model Odyssey. I need to buy a family crusier in the next couple of months and have been doing my research. I love most things about it over the EX-L, but the tyranny of pax is a big question mark. Just want to know all of my options. The liability issue upon resale is my only concern about changing out the wheels.
  • gene00gene00 Posts: 113
    The tire shop who quoted me $1100-$1200 to change pax tires also said the tires were about $200 each. I assume that means they were going to charge me roughly $100 per tire for the pax mounting process.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    Thank you for that reply gene00. The Touring is an unbelievable bargain for what you get. I paid $33,947(incl. destination)but, w/o tax,title and licensing for the full RES and NAVI. This van has every single option you can think of that would be found on a "luxury" car. Memory seats,back-up camera,parking assist,heated seats,pedal adjust,programable wipers,auto day/night mirror,power side doors, power tailgate,fogs,etc,etc.

    I paid $31,000 for a 1998 Toyota SIenna XLE when it was new!! That's 8 years ago and that Sienna had leather and that was about it!

    Perhaps the easiset solution would be if Honda offered a non-Pax tire set up for the Touring. This would alleviate most of this discussion and then you could arrange to purchase a Touring with PAX or without PAX. Unfortunately, that option does not exist.

    The replacement cost is an issue, however, I look at the overall value and I will accept the fact that it may be more expensive to replace tires on this model Odyssey. I don't, however subscribe to the theory that the PAX system will leave you high and dry on vacation or whatever as I think that the odds of that happening are remote. It may have happened, but with the advancement of the PAX program I doubt it would be a common occurance. I cannot remember my last flat tire...

    The Touring is just too good of a vehicle with so many great options not available on the EX-L that I would not hesitate to buy another one again, PAX and all! Good luck in your decision, these are great highway cruisers.
  • You do not have to buy new wheels to replace a PAX tire. The Rubber costs about $200 The dealer gets charged a core charge of $400 for the wheel. They get that money refunded when they return your assembly. About $225-$250 per corner. Not bad for the piece of mind of a run flat tire.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    Like others have mentioned, I also am considering the Touring model over the EX-L but am a bit worried about PAX Michellin Tire system. Can small nail punctures be plugged or do you need a whole new tire?. It's really to bad Honda doesn't offer a 19" sport tire package on the EX-L.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "It's really to bad Honda doesn't offer a 19" sport tire package on the EX-L."

    Yeah, no kidding. I was really getting irritated at the last auto-x I entered with my wife's EX-L. The van was SERIOUSLY under-tired and was practically screaming for a nice set of 19" gumballs....

    :confuse: :confuse:
  • A PAX tire cannot be plugged. You must remove it from the rim and patch it from the inside. Not a difficult task if you have a PAX tire capable tire changing machine. Until a more extensive repair network is in place. Michelin/Honda will replace the tire and wheel with a new one in exchange for your damaged one. The PAX capable Micheline/Honda network is expanding rapidly.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Tim---I sure hope you are correct about the "rapidly" part.
  • gene00gene00 Posts: 113
    Can you say where you've seen the pax network expanding? No new pax-capable tire shops in the SF Bay Area in the last year.
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