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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I paid under $34K(less TTL) for a brand new 2006 Touring with RES/NAVI in May this year. That is an incredible value for everything that is found on this van from memory seats to adjustable pedals,all power doors/tailgate,park assist,day-night mirror, back-up camera,etc,etc. You can't touch these luxory options in anything else on the road today for that price and if it means I pay a little more when it comes time to replace the tires it's no biggie. I can't remember the last time I had a flat and I'm not going to start worrying about it now. To opt for a less optioned Odyssey model to simply avoid the PAX system is kind of silly when the van is this cheap to begin with.
  • gotribegotribe Posts: 101
    You make a good point about price. We looked at the new Acura MDX (we have an 03)and its $10 grand plus over the Odyssey Touring. A bit of an apples and oranges comparison I realize, but the Odyssey has more room which is important for us. My main point is to question Honda's wisdom about these new PAX tires--before there is an adequate system to get them repaired/replaced in case of failure. What are they thinking?
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I looked at the MDX and Lexus R as well and they are much more expensive and still lacked all of the options. This will be my last van as my youngest is 10, but in all reality this thing is CHEAP. I paid $31K(PLUS TTL) for the 1998 Toyota Sienna XLE that I got rid of to buy the Odyssey Touring and that van had no options to speak of! That was over 8 years ago! The PAX system is not gonig away and neither are expensive run-flat tires in general. To spend another $1500 in cash and time to change out the tires and then end up with a system that is compromised in some fashion is really weak. You'd be better off buying someone's PAX discard on EBAY and throwing the whole wheel/tire in the trunk on longer trips. Once again, this Touring has too many great things going for it to pass up the opportunity to own one and drive it.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "To spend another $1500 in cash and time to change out the tires and then end up with a system that is compromised in some fashion is really weak."

    Hmmm, kind of funny as I see it just the opposite. We are a two van family with one of the vans nearing 130,000 miles and due for replacement in the foreseeable future (the replacement isn't a requirement, its just that the older one is getting a little long in the tooth). If it comes to pass that the Oddy gets nod this time around it would most likely be the Touring model. That said, I would absolutely dump the PAX system in favor of conventional wheels (with the TMPS sensors installed) and tires as I see the unconventional PAX system as being "really weak."

    FWIW, the newer of our two vans has conventional tires and a TPMS system and as Mrs. Shipo has a tendency of finding nails (once this year), screws (three times this year) and curbs (once this year damaging the sidewall of both right side tires) with fair regularity, the TPMS on her van has proven itself to be quite valuable.

    Due to the above incidents I've needed to buy three new tires with a total cost of just over $400. Were it that she was driving a van with the PAX system those same three tires would come to $1,800 (if you believe our local Honda dealers' claim of $600 per wheel/tire assembly). Even if I could find a place to do the deed for $200 per wheel, that's still $600 or half again as much as what I've spent on three new Goodyear Assurance TripleTred tire replacements.

    Yup, I’m very convinced that the PAX system is extremely weak.

    BTW, your statement about a new wheel and tire set costing $1,500 is a bit high. I can get a set of AT Italia S5 wheels shod with Michelin Energy LX4 tires shipped to my house for $1,114.86 (including mounting, balancing, taxes and shipping charges) from TireRack.com.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    For 2 years Mrs. Shipo can drive into your Honda dealer and get a whole new Pax assembly. There is no limit to the number of nails and screws she can find in 2 years. When your Pax warning goes off in the Touring model it will count down how many miles you can continue to drive on it. If you have aftermarket tires you must tell all drivers of your van to disregard that warning and stop immediately. I said "$1500 in cash and time" and I guess your time is worth nothing. Sounds like you've already spent a fair amount of time researching alternatives.

    Obviously, you may put more miles on your cars than I do and may take longer trips than I do and I can understand where the need for a run-flat may not be your cup of tea. In my situation the PAX system works just fine and if my wife has a flat she knows to check the tire and then drive to the dealer for replacement.

    I'm happy that you understand the value of the Touring model as it really is a bargain and it drives like a dream...PAX and all. :) I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Touring model all over again.
  • Just be sure to inform your wife that she should ONLY have flat tires when she is within 150 miles of a Honda dealership and that the dealership is open when she has the flat (and she can get there before it closes). ALSO, please tell her to only have one flat at a time since the dealer only usually stocks one PAX wheel at a time. ALso, bring all information regarding the PAX wheel to the dealer since most havent a clue about pricing/procedures etc. Finally, make absolutely sure she never takes long trips on a Sunday since most dealership service centers are closed and she may end up sitting in hotel room for the night with kids going nuts (as happened to me).
  • gotribegotribe Posts: 101
    This has turned into a testy little debate! I think the bottom line is that when the PAX system is working well and replacements are readily available at a fair price, life is good. But that does not seem to be the case yet. The irony is that the owner of a "Touring" vehicle with "run flat" tires can find himself/herself in a situation that proves to be expensive/inconvenient. Honda/Michelin need to execute better on this one even if it means providing an 800 number to owners in an emergency that either gets a tire to them quickly, or gets them to a location that has one. Great concept, weak execution.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    1-877-PAX-TIRE. If you read your service manual Michelin asks you to call this number first and they will direct you next as to what to do. Does it work? Obviously, not for some. I don't need my wife sitting by the side of the road trying to fix a flat. She has yet to find a nail, screw or run into a curb.

    My only point here, quite frankly, is to praise the Touring model for what it is and believe that people should take a good look at this model regardless of how they feel about the PAX system. This is one beautiful ride for the dough.

    That is all! enjoy the ride :)
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 842
    Chirp writes about hitting a curb. It usually meses up the sidewall. Would PAX save you if sidewall is gone? Regular RFT would fail as it is the said sidewall that supports the weight.

    Krzys
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I think the reference to the curb vs. sidewall issue started with my comment about my wife taking out two brand new Goodyear Assurance TripleTreds earlier this year on one of our vans. In her case she executed an accident avoidence manuver and caught the curb at some speed resulting in rim cuts to the sidewall of both right side tires. This in turn caused significant visual damage to both tires, and a slow leak in the front tire.

    Were it that she had RFTs of any type (PAX or otherwise) on her van there is little doubt that we would have had to replace both tires anyway as the cuts in the sidewall were down to the belting material. Would she have been able to continue to drive after the incident? Yes. That said, she made it to her office which was another 20 miles beyond where she caught the curb just as the TPMS system was registering a low tire.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 144
    PAX: Yes

    Regular run-flat: Since no support ring exists, I'd have to say "it depends" on how big the slice is. I don't think they'd do as well with a "2-inch hole" in them, as used in the above PAX demo. It is hard to generalize here.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    Thank you for posting that link, actualsize. I had not seen that before and it is informative. I'm not sure I would encourage anyone to drive very far with part of their sidewall missing, but it's good to know that it may be possible with the PAX system. Usually a big sidewall hit comes in twos(hitting a curb while skidding on snow,etc.). I would definately not drive very far on two blown sidewalls, PAX or no PAX.
  • mwjoemwjoe Posts: 1
    aptom....did you purchase in the Chicago area?
  • aptomaptom Posts: 6
    I bought my Odyssey in the Washington, D.C.-suburban Maryland area.
  • My quote from the Honda dealer was $650 per tire, since they only replaced the tire/wheel assembly. Where did the 10-15% over standard prices come from? The front tires only lasted 33000 miles.
  • gene00gene00 Posts: 113
    It's a lie from Michelin. I can't believe they are getting away with saying it. I'll never buy another Michelin product, ever. It would be the equivalent of Honda saying that the 2007 Odyssey will only cost 10% more than a 1986 Yugo, then showing up to the dealership to find they want $30,000 for it.
  • gotribegotribe Posts: 101
    There have been wildly contradictory posts about the cost of PAX tires/wheels on these forums. Can anyone with the facts please answer the following questions:
    1. What's the approximate cost of just the PAX tire at a Honda Dealer?
    2. What's the approximate cost of just the PAX tire at a Michelin store?
    3. What's the approximate cost of the entire PAX tire/wheel assembly at a Honda Dealer and Michelin store?
    4. What is the replacement policy by a Honda dealer, and a Michelin store if the tire is non-repairable?

    Thank you!!
  • This is very interesting--what about the people with PAX wheels they have already outfitted with regular wheels/tires? Can anyone who's made the swap from PAX to regular wheels/tires comment on their experiences?
    Thanks.
  • ClairesClaires Chicago areaPosts: 979
    Folks, please don't post contact information (email addresses, postal addresses, phone numbers, etc.) in the Forums for anyone, including yourself. Thanks.

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  • *** This is a repost of my previous message with contact info removed. My apologies to Bruce. ***

    I've just joined the fray on this list, so here's my story and what I know:

    My 05 Touring has only 17,000 miles, and the treads have about 5/32 left. While they're probably okay for dry road driving, I'm in the mountains of CO and it's ski season. A few days ago my wife had to park the van at the bottom of a hill because she couldn't drive up on the snowpack.

    I've been looking for the "best solution" to get snow tires and possibly rid myself of this whole PAX debacle. I thought the "new rims and standard tires" route (possibly from TireRack.com as suggested several times) might be a contender. To that end I e-mailed their retail Sales Mgr with my story and got this in reply:

    -------------------------------------------------
    On 11/16/06, Bruce xxxxx, wrote:

    Hi Tim,

    Only your dealer can sell you replacement PAX parts. They can get PAX Winter tires too. Despite what the thread says [Tim's note: this thread] we've recently found out that these PAX equipped vehicles should only use the wheels and tires that are designed specifically for them because that is what the suspension systems were set up for.

    My recommendation would be to contact your Honda Dealer for the correct PAX products to get you through the Winter safely.

    Hope this helps.

    Best Regards,
    Bruce xxxxx | Retail Sales Manager
    The Tire Rack
    [contact info removed]
    -------------------------------------------------

    Prior to receiving his response, I'd spoken with two Honda dealers and two Discount Tire stores identified on the Michelin web site as authorized PAX System Dealers. The Honda dealer in town and one of the Discount Tire stores told me point blank that there were no PAX snow tires. The dealer quoted me $330/wheel for regular PAX tires, either wheel-swap or just the tires. I don't like or trust this dealer, so I won't be going there. The first Discount Tire knew absolutely nothing (new guy) except that their PAX machine was broken and they weren't in any rush to have it fixed. The second Discount Tire store only offered the regular tires @ $188/ea, but install kicked the bill up to $1,200.

    The 2nd Honda dealer is about 90 miles away, and is where I bought the van. Initially their service manager also said there were no snow tires, but by my second call he'd collaborated with his parts manager and found that the Michelin X-Ice has a PAX compatible version. They quoted me $870 for the set of 4, plus $120 install.

    Of course, that'll mean doing the twice-per-year tire swap at $100-$200 a whack. :cry:

    I'm still wondering if the 07 EX/LX TPMS-equipped tires might be an acceptable swap for the 05 PAX? I don't like the idea that I can't just go to one of the local tire dealers. Or, what if I have a flat in the middle of the Mojave on a Friday night on my way to DisneyLand and there are no Honda dealers open until Monday? That's just nuts.

    Tim
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Interesting. Based upon your post I went back to the TireRack site and sure enough, they are no longer listing any wheel and tires sets as being available for the Odyssey Touring.

    Thinking about this further; while I do have some concerns about RTFs in general, none of those concerns are a "Show Stopper" per-se. That said, unless a vehicle is equipped with a jack and a spare tire, RFTs are a non-starter for me. Fortunately the Odyssey can be made to clear that hurdle with the addition of a jack and spare tire from lesser Odysseys.

    The problem here is that the PAX/TPMS system that comes as standard issue on the Odyssey Touring adds in another wrinkle, namely that of the non-standard tire size. Said non-standard size requires special equipment for mounting and is usually accompanied by a fairly long lead time (compared to conventional tires) when a replacement is required. With the above in mind, I’m going to have to cross the Odyssey Touring off my list of potential replacement vans as there simply is no way I would drive a vehicle with such a potential exposure

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    The PAX system is an option on the '07 Nissan Quest van. Obviously, this would have been smart on Honda's part to make it optional on the Touring as well. Maybe...just maybe, if more manufacturers continue to engage the Michelin PAX system there would be more plentiful opportunities for repair and replacement out there. One can only hope.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    The PAX system is an option on the '07 Nissan Quest van.

    Smart move by Toyota.

    Maybe...just maybe, if more manufacturers continue to engage the Michelin PAX system there would be more plentiful opportunities for repair and replacement out there. One can only hope.

    I wouldn't bet on it. More and more this PAX experiment seems to be resembling the Michelin TRX debacle of the late 1970s and early 1980s. No thanks, count me out.

    What I'm still trying to figure out is "Why?"

    I kind of have the "Why?" thing figured out as to why RFTs were created in the first place, reasons that don't apply to me, but I can see how some folks might like them.

    The big "Why?" in my mind is why change the wheel and mounting hardware? Do PAX tires perform better that standard RFTS? Do PAX tires ride better, last longer, cost less? Do they do anything demonstrably better than conventional RTFs? If so, enough to try and reinvent the wheel? I rather doubt it.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • I don't think they changed the wheel and mounting because some people have mounted alternate wheels. However, several Honda and Discount Tire dealers have told me Honda beefed up the suspension to account for the 50% heavier wheel assembly - 50lb normal vs. 75lb PAX. That, apparently, becomes a big issue when contemplating mounting a lighter wheel.

    That same dealer told me that, even as we speak, Honda is testing Tourings with non-PAX wheels for stability and handling performance.

    Tim
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    While I have never driven or ridden in a vehicle with conventional run-flats, the knock I've always heard is that they ride relatively harsh due to their stiff sidewalls.

    PAX is based on a different principle with its inner support ring and, at least on the Odyssey, ride pretty close to the same as conventional rubber.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I've heard that Honda has claimed that the Odyssey Touring was optimized for the heavier wheel and tire assembly of the PAX system and that ride, handling and durability of the suspension will all suffer if conventional tires are used to swap out the PAX wheels and tires. Sorry, not buying.

    Unsprung weight is still unsprung weight and the laws of physics are very clear on this issue, the lighter the wheel and tire assembly, the better the ride and handling will be. Suspension life will increase as well due to the fact that said suspension will have far less work to do when being driven over any given road at any given speed. Some BMW dealers are squawking the same line of drivel as Honda right now, even to the extent of suggesting that the warranty on a new 3-Series will be voided out if non RFT tires are used. Not buying that either. The fact is that every 3-Series owner I've talked with here and elsewhere who has replaced their heavy RFTs with GFTs (Gets Flat Tires) has experienced significant improvements in ride, handling and lower lap times on the track as well.

    Regarding a claimed superiority in ride and handling of the PAX system over conventional RFTs, yes, I might buy that a little, however, given the extra weight of the PAX system over conventional RFTs, my bet is that they are nearer than not in the harshness department.

    The reality for me is that as inconvenient as a flat tire might could well be, I'll gladly change a tire here and there so that I can have GFTs on all of my cars.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • panmaxpanmax Posts: 24
    I learned a lot from this discussion. I was planning to buy next month. I really do not want to pay $200 for one tire. And the salesman never did say how much a Pax would cost to replace. I do plan to keep any vehicle I buy more than 2 years. Real owners' experience is more truthful than anything a salesman says.
  • I went to the Michelin website and pulled up the Honda Odyssey Touring.

    They show the Size:235-710R460A 104T Energy LX4.

    Is this the PAX? there is no mention of RunFlat on this tire, or is this a regular tire with the right sizing?

    There is also a winter tire listed X-Ice with same measurments.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Yep, that's PAX and its winter counterpart.
  • I just bought a used 05 Touring with 20K miles and the tires are worn and need replacing. I'm having a hard time deciding to stay with the original Michelin's or scrap the whole PAX system and put new wheels and conventional tires. The cost for that is slightly more than $1,200 to replace but half that is the rims and they'd likely last longer. Honda dealer says many of their customers are doing just that. I'm curious as to what you decided to do or if anyone else has scrapped the PAX and installed custom rims w/regular tires.
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