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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • mixa1mixa1 Posts: 4
    3 weeks ago I finally filed a lawsuit in the small claims court against a local Honda dealership for $1700: $400 for fixing a nail in my PAX tire and $1300 for dePaxing and buying a spare. Last Friday I got a certified letter from their lawyer with General Denial. The defendant "generally denies each & every allegation ... and demand strict proof by a preponderance of the evidence". They also demand that my claims "be dismissed with prejudice" and the dealership "be awarded its costs and granted all other and further relief to which it may show itself to be justly entitled".

    I'm planning to fight, but since it is my first serious experience with the judicial system, I have a few questions:
    a. The dealership employed a serious lawyer firm. Should I be better off hiring my own counsel?
    b. Is there any Consumer Advocate Groups that can help me with a lawyer?
    c. In Texas, the maximum claim amount in the Small Claim Court is $10000. Does it mean that whoever wins the case has a right to recover his legal expenses from the loosing side up to the maximum amount?

    Thanks.
  • esk114esk114 Posts: 2
    Bought my 2005 Touring 6-months ago (used). Side-walls on the tires looked big but didn't think much about it. For that matter, didn't think much about the purchase. Just returned to the U.S. after living in the U.K. for many years. Always knew Hondas were good (had 2 previously), thus, couldn't go wrong with the Touring van.
    Well, after learning about the PAX system, realized, I majorly screwed-up. Might as well pushed bamboo-shoots under my finger nails.
    The way we realized Honda & Michellin shouldn't be used in the same sentence was after bringing it to our local shop (Kaufmann Tires). They couldn't do the alignment since their machine couldn't fit around the tire. After paying through the yin-yang to the local Honda dealer, both service garages said the same thing: treads are at 2/32s. Further, only the single type of Michellin tires would fit. What a corner Honda has stuck us into.
    After surfing for answers, all hope was not lost. Went back to Kaufmann and presented them with all sorts of printouts including the College Hills episode 131 DePaxing video (download). After reviewing, they realized "We can do it!"
    Within 1-day:
    - 4-new Michelin Energy LX4 17"
    - 4-new Platinum SS rims (5-spoke)
    - TPMS easily transferred onto the new rims
    - alignment, balance, etc. (usual new tire stuff).
    Much less than the $1400 Honda wanted to charge just for the tires.
    Now, I have road-mobility that can be serviced anywhere. No more reliance on an over-priced, socially unacceptable and uncaring, lack of customer care type of companies (Honda & Michelin, i.e.). And, the tires can be serviced by any of the shops, nationwide. No more paying $400+ for a simple nail in the tire. With this purchase, the repairs are free.

    The reason for the downgrade from the PAX 18" to the 17" is primarily rubbing. I've seen posts on other threads that the 18" size causes wheel-well rubbing. We have experienced that a lot with this van. Now, shouldn't be much of an issue.
    As for the old rims, going to bring to a 3rd-party dealer and see if they want to buy them (probably cheap). May end-up as planters in our backyards, or, manure traps for the local wildlife, which would be more useful than their currently assigned functions.
    Only problem is it seems EVERYONE is DePaxing. We went to get a new donut-spare with the install kit. Quoted $245 from Honda. Problem - none in the state. Closest one is 5-6 hrs away in North Carolina. Oh, they can order one but takes about a week.
    Next time, gonna be very leary of anything Honda puts out. I'm not as much a loyal customer based on this fubar they've done.
    The lawsuit doesn't even compensate for this type of stuff. The only saving-grace is the spare-tire. Honda offers $110 (with proof of doco), yet, won't record it being purchased at their shop for $245. This is the most monetarily rewarding part to the lawsuit. Reading through it, the rest is B.S.
    In a few years when its time to get a new van, Honda will NOT be at the top of the list.
  • mr302homr302ho Posts: 1
    I have 4 wheel, TPMS sensors and tires mounted and ready to bolt on. Two wheels are slightly bent but all tires have less than 7k miles on them, almost new. Retail for $1250 from dealer. They are ready to go and I am in MAssachusetts. Drop my a line for more info and pics. Thanks.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    If you email me I'll give you some thoughts and suggestions. skaplitt@yahoo.com
  • cyberpunkcyberpunk Posts: 39
    Ok, I got my new Odyssey touring with PAX last week. I had absolutely no idea of problems related to PAX when I purchased it. So what do I do now?

    I am thinking to ask dealer to dePAX my Odyssey at their expense. Has anyone done this? Will this be even possible???

    If not, what do you guys recommend?


    I recommend you relax and enjoy your new car. And enjoy your peace of mind that comes with knowing you and/or your wife can drive safely to a safe place (home or a dealership) in the event of a flat tire or blow-out.

    The silent majority of PAX owners are content with their purchase. I consider the additional cost of the system (i.e., relatively high tire replacement costs, and shorter-lifecycle) to be perfectly acceptable costs for knowing that my wife will not be stranded on the side of the road with our two kids, dealing with a flat tire.
  • stuman168stuman168 Posts: 27
    Ok, I got my new Odyssey touring with PAX last week. I had absolutely no idea of problems related to PAX when I purchased it. So what do I do now?

    I am thinking to ask dealer to dePAX my Odyssey at their expense. Has anyone done this? Will this be even possible???

    If not, what do you guys recommend?

    If you already bought the car just enjoy your car. Don't worry too much the tire will last at least 20k if you properly inflated. it's easy just check the MID for tire pressure on each tire. If you use your minivan for a long trip I would suggest for you to buy a spare as getting the tire replaced may be difficult in the remote area.
    Remember at least if you have a puncture in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere you can still drive the car 125 miles with at least 50 mph. replacing for $250 per tire is not bad when you consider your wife don't have to be stranded somewhere waiting for the tire to be change (esp important if you have infant or toddler)
  • frank103frank103 Posts: 3
    I see most of posts are about 2005-2007. What about 2008 model? Anything specific about dePAX that model? Thanks.
  • Dealing with these PAX tires now, wife purchased 06 RL with Tek package, when she brought the car home I phoned the dealer to make sure he can service these tires / wheels, he assurred us he could, well he can't, we have had serval differenct sotries regarding these tire / wheels we will never own another acura / honda again, dealer is useless, dealing with one goodyear dealer in our area who is willing to change these out, he did the follow up on this product, it is a sad day when you buy a 50,000 car and have the acura dealers just shrough there shoulders, well good by acura / honda, never again.
  • Before DePAXing your Honda, you need to consider what the trade offs are. Some people are happy with knowing that their family bus will not be stranded with a flat while mom is shuttling kids around town. However, there is the issue of cost and limited places that a tire can be serviced. If you plan on taking the minivan on a cross-country trek, one must consider that 125 miles might not get you to anyone that can fix a PAX tire.

    I found that my local Honda dealership drives their PAX work to the ONLY tire store in the county that has the PAX tire machine. The Honda dealership cannot service PAX tires!!! To add insult to injury, they charge you extra to drive it over to the tire store. They won't tell you unless you ask if they actually perform the PAX tire service.

    The MATH: To get a new set of PAX tires that will last about 30K miles costs $1200. To De-Pax and get 80K mile tires costs $1900. (my PAX tires lasted only 27K miles) My number crunching told me that over the next 80K miles I would need 3 sets of PAX tires. $3600 versus $1900 AND now that I have new rims the next set of 80K tires will be only $650 while the PAX tires will still cost $1200. Over the life of 150K miles, which the Honda should do if basic maintenance is done, the cost of PAX tires is $4800 while the de-paxing will cost $2550.

    You need to pick the tire make and model that you want on the car BEFORE getting new tire rims. Not all tires are available with 17-inch rims. This is important when deciding which rims to get for your car since the PAX rims have to be replaced when you de-pax. You will be getting either 235/65 R16 or 235/60 R17 tires. The most recommended tires were the Michelin Energy LX4 and Goodyear Assurance ComforTred. BUT giving business back to Michelin after the PAX disaster seemed silly. I decided that I wanted to get Goodyear Assurance TripleTred tires for better traction, which are only available in 235/65 R16.

    Tire stores are going to have a hard time removing the tire pressure sensors. As a result they will be charging you labor time that is equal to if not more than the cost of buying new sensors. My advice is to just buy a new set of pressure sensors and leave the PAX tires completely intact. Storing them might be an issue since each tire weighs 70 pounds.

    I got my DePAX kit from College Hills Honda. http://www.collegehillshonda.com. Select Odyssey DePAX kits on their homepage. They are EXTERMELY helpful. Call toll free and ask for the parts department and talk to them about DePAXing. Their kits come with a mounted spare that takes only 2 minutes to put into the Odyssey spare compartment. (You will discover that your Odyssey did come with a jack and lug wrench, just no spare) They also tell you about the need to change out lug nuts based on your model year and tire rim selected.

    My recommendation is that you buy a DePAX kit that matches your desired new tire make and model. Purchase the new Sensor Kit that includes the Valve Assembly Kit as well as new Center Caps for the new rims. You will need to get the Lug Nut Kit if you are a 2005-2007 and are changing to a 2008-2009 rim. Get the new tires and sensors mounted and balanced and replace the PAX tires without trying to reuse the pressure sensors in the existing PAX tires. This will give you the option to put the PAX tires back on anytime you want.
  • Just DePAXed my 07 Touring. Discount Tire installed 18X8 TSW Mallory 5s with Yokohama YK520 235/60R-18 107V. I kept the original TPMS sensors. Michelin was nice enough to credited me $38.00 per tire. The new wheels are very conservative & accent the van. Drove a little over 90 miles today in town & highway, my Honda has never driven smoother or quieter. My center console no longer vibrates, it's like driving a $40k dollar minivan. I purchased a spare tire kit from College Hill Honda $228.84+sh (will process the paper for my $110 refund this weekend).
  • I'm sitting here with BIG knots in my stomach after reading these De-PAX and RFT horror stories...pretty freaked out --feel like crying. I am completely IN LOVE with the Odyssey mini-van and need it. I've been an EX-L leasee since 2001. I'm picking up a lease turn-in on a 2007 Odyssey Touring with 36,000 miles as my current EX-L lease is due. And now, I just feel like CANCELING THE WHOLE DEAL!!

    I was just told last night by my Honda dealer that after their 150-count inspection that 2 out of the 4 RFT did not pass HONDA certification--they are being REPLACED BRAND NEW. Ok, that's good for me on at least 2 of them. And, of course, as you all know, I asked the dealer about DePax on all four at their cost--NO WAY! But we ALL know that already. I guess that the DePax battle and headache is just a bit down the road but at least after reading all these blogs I've learned it's more common and can breathe knowing I it can be done. I've read about 200 blogs,

    I read the latest news about the Michelin-honda settlement and the opt-out. At some point I will be De-Paxing and contacting CollegeHills Honda to buy a DePax kit. I've got a list of the DePax certified shops near me and will call ALL of them and begin to get pricing. I'm ready when the time comes.

    My serious questions are below and would someone PLEASE give me their opinion since everyone here is really knowledge and I trust these blogs (honesty and safety is everything!)

    --What do I need to ask the dealer about the remaining 2 RFT tires?

    --What are the important questions to ask their parts/service department while I am there?

    --I will be driving the 'new' Odyssey 2007 Touring for an initial 200-mile trip (each way) with kids and heavy, heavy packing and Thule the day after I pick it up.

    1. Should I worry badly ABOUT driving this far with a very heavy load and RFT tires?

    2. Should I over inflate the tires to 39 PSI as has been suggested by other PAX users?

    3. Should I always keep the tires around 39 PSI?

    4. Does anyone think since Michelin/Honda have stopped RTF contract, that it will now cost MORE to dePax?

    I have noticed though that since more dealers and auto repair shops are DePAXING, the cost has come down a bit since the earlier blogs.

    5. In someone's opinion, what be the best and most cost-effective tire replacement for me to consider when I De Pax? Tires size and rims, etc. Size?
    Brand? Do I still need the TMPS equipment?

    So, who thinks I'm crazy to pick up this Odyssey Touring with PAX tires tomorrow?

    I'm now happy and sad all at the same time.

    Thanks for ALL feedback to my ranting and questions.

    ~Deerface26
  • If you are LEASING the car ......

    1. You don't own the car so you have no authority to DEPAX it,

    2. JUST LEASE an ODYSSEY without PAX !!!! 2009 Touring models do come with a No-PAX configuration.

    Tire pressures are measured COLD with the anticipation that they will increase by 4 PSI once the tires warm up. The owners manual says 33 PSI front and 35 PSI rear for PAX tires.....this means that when you are driving down he road, 37 and 39 PSI are the target pressures. You can read them while you are driving on the dash display. See manual if you don't know how to get to that display.

    My Posting number 1405 details what I think is the best option for depaxing since it leaves the PAX tires intact and fully ready to return to the car anytime you want to restore the PAX tires.
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    Does your lease contain a 100% maintainence coverage? If so, it may not be too bad. But keep in mind, only the Honda dealer can change them or repair a flat.

    I agree with deerface, go with an '08, '09, or '10 without PAX. You don't want to own the van with the PAX tire package if you can help it.

    BTW - I got 27,500 out of my PAX tires before I de-paxed (16" EX Honda wheels with new touring sensors) and I always ran 35psi all the way around. 33psi in the front tires tended to wearout the edges way too fast. After de-paxing, I still had 5/32 of tread left. I'll either e-bay them, sell them with the van, or throw them back on and wear them out.

    In theory PAX are really cool, but in reality they suck!
  • 1. Should I worry badly ABOUT driving this far with a very heavy load and RFT tires? as long you do not exceed the recommended weight you probably OK. I have travel on 500 plus trip several times was OK until our last trip in which the tire puncture on sunday. see previous post

    2. Should I over inflate the tires to 39 PSI as has been suggested by other PAX users?
    I keep it 35 cold because it'll increase to 39-40 when hot
    3. Should I always keep the tires around 39 PSI?

    4. Does anyone think since Michelin/Honda have stopped RTF contract, that it will now cost MORE to dePax?

    I have noticed though that since more dealers and auto repair shops are DePAXING, the cost has come down a bit since the earlier blogs.

    5. In someone's opinion, what be the best and most cost-effective tire replacement for me to consider when I De Pax? Tires size and rims, etc. Size?

    Brand? Do I still need the TMPS equipment?

    if your wife is primary driver and most of the trips will be less than 125 miles
    I still think it's better to keep the PAX. you may want to ask the dealer to change
    the other 2 pax for a big discount and install you a spare tire just incase you're traveling far and to more remote area
    I still keep my pax and cost 250 to change including gel and labor and have installed spare tire just in case
  • Hi and first, thanks for th ereply. NO, I am BUYING/OWNING the 2007 Touring (tomorrow) with 2 new PAX tiress so far, so the PAX warranty applies. It was CHEAPER to buy the 2007 Touring than leasing the 2009 w/o PAX!! (no money out of pocket on a lease is always what I do). And thank you for #1405 reply for DEPAXING as I will SAVE that for my future need (which you know I will have!!).
  • Thank you Stuamn168 for your informative reply. I will definitely start with 35 PSI all around cold. I am packing probably packing pretty heavy so how do I find out the recommended weight for the van? I really load it up and my husband alone weighs 312 pounds! Scary, right? I will ask about installing a spare tire just in case. Good idea and appreciated. Where do they put it? Except for 2 trips a year, everything else is definitely under 125 miles. I will eventually be depaxing some time soon I'm sure. Thank you again. So, should I still have these bad knots in my stomach when I pick up the car tomorrow?
  • thebingsthebings Posts: 10
    I am getting ready to de-pax my '06 touring. I have decided on Kumho Solus KR21 235/60/17 tires but I can't decide on wheels. Tirerack sells a Elbrus wheel, Wheelrack sells a Sport wheel, Discount Tire Direct sells a Drag wheel. These are all very good looking wheels and a really good price. They are all built in China. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience with any of these wheels. Thanks
    Don
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 772
    I'm getting ready to trade in my fourth Odyssey (the second with PAX). Although the van has only 26,5xx on the odometer, the tires look like they've got 45K on them. I rotate the tires religiously at 5K miles and keep the pressure at 35 psi cold.

    When I bought my 2006, I didn't know about the issues with PAX. When I bought my second Touring model, I was fully informed and made a conscious decision to trade the convenience, lower cost, and better ride quality of standard tires for the safety of PAX. I have driven my Ody fully loaded through the Arizona/California desert dozens of times without issue. I drove the van from Arizona to Virginia loaded to the roof (and luggage on top) without a problem. I drove the van from Southern VA to New England a dozen times worry-free. Finally, I drove it to Florida where it now lives. From a utility and safety perspective, the Odyssey is without peer.

    That said, I'd make the dealer replace all four PAX tires in order to do the deal. good luck!
  • Vinnyny,

    Well we bought the 2007 with PAX tire set (2 out of 4 brand new), dealer would not go for the other 2 but picked up my last payments on my current lease so that what the price of the other 2 tires. Ride is great I must admit and the Touring is amazing. 2007 or not ! There are nearby run-flat service places not far away and we were loaded up with kids, luggage, etc. So far, we love it, and let's see what happens from here on out...
  • Deerface,
    Congrats on your Ody. We had the same 2007 touring and really enjoy it. I am keeping the PAX tires. While it may not be around in 5 years, I really give me a peace of mind knowing that the car can be driven for 125 miles when the tire is flat.
    Did you manage to get the dealer install you a spare tire?
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 772
    Good luck with your Ody. I still think it's the best vehicle on the planet. My wife is pushing for a CUV because she claims the Ody makes her "feel old". If the PAX tires hold up, I'll be trading it in when the "cash for clunkers" hangover hits in three months or so.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    This is for anyone who opted out and considering small action claim.

    I am a lawyer but this is only general suggestions, not specific to any one individual or claim.

    First, it is always best to get advice from a lawyer in your jurisdiction. Laws vary in each state, and a lawyer can explain what law is applicable to your claim, whether you have a good case, how best to pursue it, etc.

    For most depax claims, you will be near or well within the small claims limit. That means in most instances your case will be heard informally by a judge (see my prior posting on this subject). However, its very important to have your legal argument well prepared. That means you can't just say Honda and Michelin ripped me off, or that pax is scam.

    When I file my small claim in the future, I will argue that Honda/Michelin violated my state's consumer protection statute by failing to disclose material (meaning important) facts about the pax system, including cost of replacement and low-mile tread wear. Every state has a consumer protection statute, just google that term and your state.

    That search will also likely tell you about consumer protection groups in your state. They may be able to give you guidance in how to prepare your case.

    In most states discovery is not allowed in small claims. If your state allows discovery, you want to ask Honda/Michelin to produce all documents and information that discuss pax cost and limitations. Problem is that for a small case judge will likely limit what you can ask for. I think it would be helpful to have Honda/Michelin produce the sales and marketing material on pax during the year you purchased your vehicle. We know it says nothing about the well-documented issue on cost and treadwear. You can also print out info from the internet, which a judge may or may not allow. Generally, a judge will be more open to credible sources (for example, a trade journal article on pax problems, v. ranting by a customer on this board).

    On costs if you lose, generally loser does not pay in the US especially for smaller claims (which is a big subject on tort reform). HOWEVER, laws vary by state so before you file, make sure to check with the court clerk and ask if losing party pays costs. If they refuse to answer, get legal advice on that within your state.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I'm at 38,000 miles along with 3 years of trouble-free driving and just replaced my PAX tires with a new set for $1,263. This should provide me with another 3 years of driving and then I will trade out the van. I still don't understand how some people only get 20,000 miles out of these tires, poor gas mileage and complain of a bad ride. I have had none of these issues or complaints.
  • I have bought a set of wheels from a 2009 Acura TL for my 2006 Odyssey Touring. Which lug nuts do I buy, the ones for the Acura wheels (90304-TK4-A01) or the ones for the later year (08-09) Odyssey (90304-SJA-A91)? Thanks for any help.
    Don
  • Thank you for this information -- very good to keep at hand.
  • So far we're having the same experience as chirp. We're at 24K on an '07 with nearly 50% of the wear left. No troubles, good mileage, great ride, etc. Peace of mind of not trying to change a tire on Chicago's expressways are worth it for us.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    You should have no trouble getting to 40K miles. I still had room to the wear bars, but winter is coming and decided to switch them out now. Keep the pressure up at 37 or so and they ride and wear perfectly. I'm in Chicago as well and totally concur with your statement. This van has also taken two 3,500 mile round trips to the East coast and onto the island of Manhatten :)
  • Apologies for this HUGE delay in response....never got the Spare tire installed, although this is something I can going to schedule. Back tires were replaced Brand New by dealer on August pickup and we went to NJ shore with no problem. Front 2 tires will need replacing at some point...keeing an eye on them. I will keep my eye on tire pressue around 36 psi - as I think that's good. I will get the tire rotates every 6,000 miles -- we are not heavy drivers.... I just love Honda Odyssee -- it's our 4th one, but our FIRST Touring - so a little nervous with the whole PAX crisis you read on everyone's forum...scarey to say the least.

    Thank you again.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 772
    My latest PAX tires are almost gone at 27K miles. If I get the right number for the van, it's gone this week. It sounds silly, but I refuse to pay $12-1500 for tires every other year. The Ody holds its value so well, that it looks like it will cost me less than $400 month again (this is our fourth).
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    We are at 64K miles on our 2006 Ody Touring and our 3rd set of PAX. Replaced the first set at 31K and the 2nd set at 33K miles so our wear has been fairly consistent. I also rotate regularly so all four tires showed fairly even wear. Bumped up psi to the 35~37 range for the 2nd set. Cost to replace was $1,250 plus tax. This is our last set of PAX as the van will be traded prior to hitting 85K. I appreciate the techology but Michelin never delivered with enough support or availability, and the cost to replace a set is about $500 too high to make the business case. Consequently, as others have suggested, PAX has gone the way of TRX.
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